Has the Blindness of Israel been removed or not?

[percho]

Re: Has the Blindness of Israel been removed or not?

makes no difference, it could be point 000000000000.1 percent and yet that teeny tiny percent is still gonna be Jews which destroys this micky mouse logic being that you guys think those Jews are blind.


thats your argument? the handpicked pharisee crowd, you do remember the rest of the passage where it said any followers would be killed right there along side Jesus, even the 12 were not there.



sorry but no matter which way you spin this it will never add up. yes i get the scripture says "the Jews" are blind, if thats to be taken literal then its a contradiction of scripture because we know for a fact that st Paul, the 12, John B, the crowds of believers, the berean Jews, etc, etc were in fact not blind. so it cant mean every Jew, so when we see the phrase "the Jews" we have to ask what Jews are they talking about, it cant be all like i just showed you, it cant be the majority because there were crowds around Jesus everywhere He went:

Luke 14:25
Now large crowds were going along with Him; and He turned and said to them,
Mark 5:24
And He went off with him; and a large crowd was following Him and pressing in on Him.
Matthew 8:18
Now when Jesus saw a crowd around Him, He gave orders to depart to the other side of the sea.
Mark 10:1
Getting up, He went from there to the region of Judea and beyond the Jordan; crowds gathered around Him again, and, according to His custom, He once more began to teach them.
Luke 5:1
Now it happened that while the crowd was pressing around Him and listening to the word of God, He was standing by the lake of Gennesaret;
Matthew 4:25
Large crowds followed Him from Galilee and the Decapolis and Jerusalem and Judea and from beyond the Jordan.
Matthew 8:1
When Jesus came down from the mountain, large crowds followed Him.
Matthew 14:13
Now when Jesus heard about John, He withdrew from there in a boat to a secluded place by Himself; and when the people heard of this, they followed Him on foot from the cities.
Matthew 19:2
and large crowds followed Him, and He healed them there.
Matthew 20:29
As they were leaving Jericho, a large crowd followed Him.
Mark 3:7-8
Jesus withdrew to the sea with His disciples; and a great multitude from Galilee followed; and also from Judea, and from Jerusalem, and from Idumea, and beyond the Jordan, and the vicinity of Tyre and Sidon, a great number of people heard of all that He was doing and came to Him.
Luke 9:11
But the crowds were aware of this and followed Him; and welcoming them, He began speaking to them about the kingdom of God and curing those who had need of healing.
Luke 23:27
And following Him was a large crowd of the people, and of women who were mourning and lamenting Him.

thats a lot of scriptures about crowds that, according to you guys, were blind. and this is just a few of many, there are like 40 passages of crowds around Jesus, and there is not one scripture describing these crowds as small.
another thing already mentioned that you guys refuse to see, the priest leadership were scared to openly plot against Jesus, do have any idea how powerful the priest leadership was, the king would never make a move without consulting them first, yet this powerful leadership, that ruled the city, had to plot in secret because they feared the crowds. the Jews in question are the leadership, they are the only ones that fit

i have never been a big fan of the anti Jewish rhetoric , the Jews reject Jesus, killed Jesus, sons of the devil, etc etc. Jesus gave specific instructions on those that refused to listen, shake the dust from that place and move on. when you start dwelling on this stuff, finger pointing, and obsessing on why one group does not share your groups opinion, it always leads to destruction, burning people alive, 4500 beheadings in one day, countries being torn apart and all the rest.

if this is not anti Jewish rhetoric and someone really thinks the Jews might be blind, and they really want to know why, dont ask in a place like this, go ask a Jew, this is exactly what i did and those guys made me feel pretty foolish for asking such a foolish question. i know many Jews and they are very devoted to serving the Most High, they are seeking and Jesus said those seeking have nothing to worry about, the Father will lead them right where they need to be.

It doesn't say the Jews were blind, it says Israel, in part, were blind and will be blind, until_

The 12 were blind until Jesus choose them, Paul was spiritual blind and struck physical blind to show him he was spiritual blind, until he was chosen and given the Holy Spirit.

Chosen according to purpose, the purpose of God.

Out of those, large crowds. about 120 were gathered on the day of Pentecost. The initial of the receiving of the Holy Spirit, then were added_

IMHO.

[jaybird]

Re: Has the Blindness of Israel been removed or not?

What percentage of the nation do you believe this to be?

makes no difference, it could be point 000000000000.1 percent and yet that teeny tiny percent is still gonna be Jews which destroys this micky mouse logic being that you guys think those Jews are blind.

The great crowds? Was the great crowd that cried, "crucify him," mainly Jews?

thats your argument? the handpicked pharisee crowd, you do remember the rest of the passage where it said any followers would be killed right there along side Jesus, even the 12 were not there.

I will give you on the day of Pentecost following the resurrection a great crowd of 3000, yet what percentage of the Jews was that 3000 relative to all Jews?

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. Rom 1:16

To the Jew first. What percentage of the Jews, before turning to the nations?

God has a plan and that plan includes Israel being blind, in part, until

sorry but no matter which way you spin this it will never add up. yes i get the scripture says "the Jews" are blind, if thats to be taken literal then its a contradiction of scripture because we know for a fact that st Paul, the 12, John B, the crowds of believers, the berean Jews, etc, etc were in fact not blind. so it cant mean every Jew, so when we see the phrase "the Jews" we have to ask what Jews are they talking about, it cant be all like i just showed you, it cant be the majority because there were crowds around Jesus everywhere He went:

Luke 14:25
Now large crowds were going along with Him; and He turned and said to them,
Mark 5:24
And He went off with him; and a large crowd was following Him and pressing in on Him.
Matthew 8:18
Now when Jesus saw a crowd around Him, He gave orders to depart to the other side of the sea.
Mark 10:1
Getting up, He went from there to the region of Judea and beyond the Jordan; crowds gathered around Him again, and, according to His custom, He once more began to teach them.
Luke 5:1
Now it happened that while the crowd was pressing around Him and listening to the word of God, He was standing by the lake of Gennesaret;
Matthew 4:25
Large crowds followed Him from Galilee and the Decapolis and Jerusalem and Judea and from beyond the Jordan.
Matthew 8:1
When Jesus came down from the mountain, large crowds followed Him.
Matthew 14:13
Now when Jesus heard about John, He withdrew from there in a boat to a secluded place by Himself; and when the people heard of this, they followed Him on foot from the cities.
Matthew 19:2
and large crowds followed Him, and He healed them there.
Matthew 20:29
As they were leaving Jericho, a large crowd followed Him.
Mark 3:7-8
Jesus withdrew to the sea with His disciples; and a great multitude from Galilee followed; and also from Judea, and from Jerusalem, and from Idumea, and beyond the Jordan, and the vicinity of Tyre and Sidon, a great number of people heard of all that He was doing and came to Him.
Luke 9:11
But the crowds were aware of this and followed Him; and welcoming them, He began speaking to them about the kingdom of God and curing those who had need of healing.
Luke 23:27
And following Him was a large crowd of the people, and of women who were mourning and lamenting Him.

thats a lot of scriptures about crowds that, according to you guys, were blind. and this is just a few of many, there are like 40 passages of crowds around Jesus, and there is not one scripture describing these crowds as small.
another thing already mentioned that you guys refuse to see, the priest leadership were scared to openly plot against Jesus, do have any idea how powerful the priest leadership was, the king would never make a move without consulting them first, yet this powerful leadership, that ruled the city, had to plot in secret because they feared the crowds. the Jews in question are the leadership, they are the only ones that fit

i have never been a big fan of the anti Jewish rhetoric , the Jews reject Jesus, killed Jesus, sons of the devil, etc etc. Jesus gave specific instructions on those that refused to listen, shake the dust from that place and move on. when you start dwelling on this stuff, finger pointing, and obsessing on why one group does not share your groups opinion, it always leads to destruction, burning people alive, 4500 beheadings in one day, countries being torn apart and all the rest.

if this is not anti Jewish rhetoric and someone really thinks the Jews might be blind, and they really want to know why, dont ask in a place like this, go ask a Jew, this is exactly what i did and those guys made me feel pretty foolish for asking such a foolish question. i know many Jews and they are very devoted to serving the Most High, they are seeking and Jesus said those seeking have nothing to worry about, the Father will lead them right where they need to be.

[jaybird]

Re: Has the Blindness of Israel been removed or not?

No, it's scripture given and spoken by God. You shouldn't call holy scripture wishful thinking.

That's also about the majority.

so now your own words are holy scripture? ohh boy . . .

No, it's scripture given and spoken by God. You shouldn't call holy scripture wishful thinking.

That's also about the majority.

so now your own words are holy scripture? ohh boy . . .

[percho]

Re: Has the Blindness of Israel been removed or not?

st Paul, the 12, John B, the crowds of believers, the berean Jews, etc, etc (how many examples do you need?), all Jews, they were not blind at all. dont think your understanding those passages correctly.


.

What percentage of the nation do you believe this to be?

The great crowds? Was the great crowd that cried, "crucify him," mainly Jews?

I will give you on the day of Pentecost following the resurrection a great crowd of 3000, yet what percentage of the Jews was that 3000 relative to all Jews?

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. Rom 1:16

To the Jew first. What percentage of the Jews, before turning to the nations?

God has a plan and that plan includes Israel being blind, in part, until

[ewq1938]

Re: Has the Blindness of Israel been removed or not?

no thats you applying wishful thinking

No, it's scripture given and spoken by God. You shouldn't call holy scripture wishful thinking.

[jaybird]

Re: Has the Blindness of Israel been removed or not?

The majority is shown as blind.

Jeremiah 4:22 For my people is foolish, they have not known me; they are sottish children, and they have none understanding: they are wise to do evil, but to do good they have no knowledge.

That's also about the majority.

no thats you applying wishful thinking

Because they are the minority, the remnant that isn't blind.

no i gave you evidence, twice now, showing that is not true, no point in giving more as your just going to continue to ignore it. or be blind to it.

i guess a better question is, why do people like you ignore so many facts to maintain these weird beliefs that do not add up?

[ewq1938]

Re: Has the Blindness of Israel been removed or not?

so why are none of them blind in scripture?

The majority is shown as blind.

Jeremiah 4:22 For my people is foolish, they have not known me; they are sottish children, and they have none understanding: they are wise to do evil, but to do good they have no knowledge.

That's also about the majority.


Rom 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
Rom 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.
Rom 11:9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
Rom 11:10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.

st Paul, the 12, John B, the crowds of believers, the berean Jews, etc, etc, why are these guys not blind?

Because they are the minority, the remnant that isn't blind.

[jaybird]

Re: Has the Blindness of Israel been removed or not?

The majority of Jews have been blind and remain blind. There's nothing that should be misunderstood about those facts. The scripture in my previous post prove this.

so why are none of them blind in scripture? st Paul, the 12, John B, the crowds of believers, the berean Jews, etc, etc, why are these guys not blind? if what your saying is true then they should be blind, but they are not. quite the opposite in fact. the temple leadership and king Herod may have very well been blind but thats not the majority, thats less than one percent of the Jews. again, quite the opposite. when the temple leadership plotted against Jesus, they did it in secret, but this makes no sense according to your "the Jews are blind" idea, they should have been able to plot against Jesus with no fear being as everyone was blind but we both know the scriptures dont say that.
this theory just doesnt hold water. simple as that. the only way it works is when you blind yourself (ironic) to the mountain of evidence such as i have presented.

[ewq1938]

Re: Has the Blindness of Israel been removed or not?

st Paul, the 12, John B, the crowds of believers, the berean Jews, etc, etc (how many examples do you need?), all Jews, they were not blind at all. dont think your understanding those passages correctly.

The majority of Jews have been blind and remain blind. There's nothing that should be misunderstood about those facts. The scripture in my previous post prove this.

[DurbanDude]

Re: Has the Blindness of Israel been removed or not?

Prophecy isn't an exact science. Often the best we can do is to take the best fit in context.

I see a pattern in the NT of a great victory of the gospel to the nations, followed by a precise 3.5 year period.

This great victory can be seen in Rev 12, the victory of our testimony, followed by 3.5 years. It can also be seen in Matthew 24, the success of the gospel in v14 is followed by the abomination, also associated with 3.5 years.

With this fullness or victory over the nations, preceding the final GT, it is easier to understand Romans 11

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

I relate the fullness of the nations to that great victory of the gospel, 3.5 years before the end.

So I believe that the blindness of Israel has not yet been removed, they are still blind in part, but blindness will be removed during that final GT.

[jaybird]

Re: Has the Blindness of Israel been removed or not?

Israel is still blinded.

Rom 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
Rom 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.
Rom 11:9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
Rom 11:10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.

st Paul, the 12, John B, the crowds of believers, the berean Jews, etc, etc (how many examples do you need?), all Jews, they were not blind at all. dont think your understanding those passages correctly.

Israel is still blinded.

Rom 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
Rom 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.
Rom 11:9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
Rom 11:10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.

st Paul, the 12, John B, the crowds of believers, the berean Jews, etc, etc (how many examples do you need?), all Jews, they were not blind at all. dont think your understanding those passages correctly.

[ewq1938]

Re: Has the Blindness of Israel been removed or not?

if Christians think Jews are blind to the faith today they might want to take a closer look at them years between Jesus and the roman takeover of the faith and see what changed.

Israel is still blinded.

Rom 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
Rom 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.
Rom 11:9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
Rom 11:10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.

[jaybird]

Re: Has the Blindness of Israel been removed or not?

God spoke through Isaiah:

chapter 6:9 [FONT="]And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.[/FONT]10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.

This became a recurring theme throughout the Bible; paraphrased by other OT prophets and NT Apostles. A lot has been said about this topic, but I'm hoping for a rethink and review of our understanding of our understanding of the passage.

My question therefore is, has this blindness of heart been removed from Israel or not? If you believe it has, what is your scriptural evidence? The same goes for those who believe it is not yet removed.

the Jews didnt seem to be blind at all in the days of Jesus and the 12 being as their were crowds of Jews that followed them everywhere, matter of fact the only Jews that seemed to be blind were the temple leadership, they may have made up one percent of the Jewish population and they were not even real Jews, they may have been Jews on the outside but their hearts were roman, real Jews with any influence over the people, like Zachariah were banished. also Jews continued to follow as when James the Just was killed the city almost went into revolt, the leadership had to make concessions to them to maintain control of Jerusalem. it wasnt until rome took over the faith that we see this big divider and separation between Judaism and Christianity, almost as if the Jews were driven away from the faith. if Christians think Jews are blind to the faith today they might want to take a closer look at them years between Jesus and the roman takeover of the faith and see what changed.

[Jesuslovesus]

Re: Has the Blindness of Israel been removed or not?

I have no wish to go round in circles with you, that's what I mean. You said you got your wish? Good on you. Should I give candy too?

Sorry, if I offended you in some way, really just wished to share the research I thought you might be interested in and get your thoughts.

[Trivalee]

Re: Has the Blindness of Israel been removed or not?

You giving up wasn't my wish, from your thread I actually got my wish overall, you started asking people if the Samaritans were Israelites are Gentiles. Then later on from my point of view all of your questions were answered in this post here.

Quote: In the Hebrew Bible the term Israelites is used interchangeably with the term Twelve Tribes of Israel. Although related, the terms Hebrews, Israelites, and Jews are not interchangeable in all instances. "Israelites" (Yisraelim) refers specifically to the direct descendants of any of the sons of the patriarch Jacob (later called Israel), and his descendants as a people are also collectively called "Israel", including converts to their faith in worship of the god of Israel, Yahweh. "Hebrews" (ʿIvrim), on the contrary, is used to denote the Israelites' immediate forebears who dwelt in the land of Canaan, the Israelites themselves, and the Israelites' ancient and modern descendants (including Jews and Samaritans). "Jews" (Yehudim) is used to denote the descendants of the Israelites who coalesced when the Tribe of Judah absorbed the remnants of various other Israelite tribes.

End of Quote.

*Objectively* what do you think about the Samaritans being Hebrews?

I have no wish to go round in circles with you, that's what I mean. You said you got your wish? Good on you. Should I give candy too?