Where does Jewish messiah fits in?

[Subriemannian]

Re: Where does Jewish messiah fits in?

I'm not saying you're necessarily wrong--only that I'm not sure you're right! For example, there have been people of Jewish stock who have created some of the worst antichrists in history. Karl Marx was of the Jewish persuasion, and produced Communism, a wicked antichrist in recent history. Jews may have contributed, significantly, to the rise of Western Liberal Religion, which is a dilution of Christian orthodoxy. This also is a form of serious antiChristianity, in my opinion.

I agree. But none of those "premature antichrists" fulfilled messianic hope, so I am saying "maybe some other PREMATURE antichrist will come that WILL fulfill messinic hope". That would be the "third Messiah".

Well no, the Jews that were willing to become "Hellenized" under Antiochus 4 were quite willing to give up their "God" in a sense. And it would be no different with Antichrist. They would simply replace the more orthodox sense of "God" with the Antichristian sense of "God."

But statistics seems different. Back then it was 50% of Jews that were faithful and 50% of Jews that weren't; but right now its like 1% of Jews thats faithful and 99% that isn't.

It doesn't really matter, to me, if there is some possible premature Antichrist who shows up to gather the Jews under his wings. The Jews are already guilty of embracing a number of historical antichrists, as I've already indicated.

Well, the way it matters is that when Jews pray for Messiah that prayer would be less dreadful if it refers to premature antichrist than it would be if it refers to real antichrist.

Yes, I get that. The Scriptures indicate that as Antichrist is coming, so already there have been many antichrists. Premature antichrists show up in every generation, and the Jews have embraced some of them. Some antichrists are so vile that the Jews *cannot* embrace them, eg Hitler.

Its strange the way you put it that Jews opposed HItler because he was vile while totally overlooking the other factor that he focused his persecution on Jews specifically. Or are you saying that if Jews were to like him then he would have liked them as well? I mean its hard to believe, since he wrote Main Kampf long before Jews had chance to oppose him. Or are you saying Jews had a chance to prove him wrong so to speak?

But in our time, I can't see hundreds of more years passing.

Actually there is a reason to believe it would be quite a while. If endtimes were to happen now, then one of the political leaders would have to be the antichrist. HOwever, I can disqualify Obama, Trump, and anyone else you might think of on the simple fact that none of them have 99% support. Most of the todays polititians who were accused of being antichrist are polarizing figures, which means that 50% of people really like them and the other 50% really hate them. But thats not what the real antichrist will be like. With real antichrist 99% of people will like him and 1% will hate him. This didn't happen yet. Stalin and Hitler were much better candidates since they got 99% support in their respective countries -- but even they didn't make it since they didn't get to rule over other countries, which is the other reason we don't have the antichrist yet. Neither Obama nor Trump runs the world, they only run the US. So I guess we would have to look at NATO then, but I can't think of anyone in NATO whom everyone likes and admires the way they liked and admired Stalin and Hitler.

There is yet another reason why the end times might not be as close as some think. The mark of the beast is Revelation 13. But prior to Revelation 13 all kinds of other things have to happen. Such as sealing of 144000, the preaching of the 2 wittnesses, those 2 wittnesses being killed and then rising on the third day (which is still Revelation 11, two chapters BEFORE the 13) and so forth. Also what about locusts, water turning into blood, and all that other stuff?

By the way, things like water turning into blood is a reason why antichrist would NOT be Jewish messiah since Jews expect prosperity. That would, in turn, imply that if Jewish messiah were to come on the scene, it would be one of the "premature antichrists".

The restoration of national Israel is very significant in prophecy, in my opinion, and there is great danger for the Jews there.

But that is only one of the prophecies to be fulfilled, but not the only one. First of all, you don't know whether "son of perdition sitting in the temple of God" refers to the rebuilt temple of Jerusalem OR whether it refers to Vatican OR something else (such as Mecca and so forth). We are just speculating. But EVEN IF it were to refer to the rebuilt temple in Jerusalem, it doesn't say that it happens immediately after the temple is rebuilt; it might happen several years later. And if it happens several years later, that would give plenty of room for "premature antichrist" to sit in that temple.

The Scriptures dictate God will rescue them before they are completely obliterated. So I don't see hundreds of years remaining for Israel or for the world, particularly with the increase of violence and nuclear weapons. And as the Christian West becomes less and less Christian, I believe the only possibility is that THE Antichrist will come--not a premature one.

But its possible that the type of apostasy God will be rescuing them from is far worse than what you see today. I mean, if you were to tell someone in the 19-th century about homosexuality, abortion, etc. etc. they would never believe that it would happen -- yet here we are, its happening. So how do you know that we wouldn't be having things like legalised paedophilia, zoophilia, cannibalism and so forth -- which we would never believe today would happen but it will -- and THATS what God will be rescuing us from?

I think we're experiencing a "disconnect?" The Jewish Messiah and the Christian Messiah cannot be 2 separate individuals unless the Jewish Messiah is a *false Messiah!*

1) If Jewish messiah is false messiah it doesn't mean its antichrist, it might be a premature antichrist

2) If its premature antichrist then why does it have to be bad? Jews don't believe their messiah is God, also they don't believe their messiah is savior either, the sole mission of their messiah is make peace and prosperity here on earth. So if Jewish messiah comes and brings peace and prosperity WITHOUT making people worship him and WITHOUT claiming to be God, then what is so wrong about it? There is no idolatry in that is there? Thats why I said that it might be antisemitic to oppose Jewish Messiah.

3) Going back to the possibility that something MIGHT be wrong with Jewish Messiah, maybe people will make point 2 as part of the deception.

When Messianic Jews in our day embrace the "Jewish Messiah," they are embracing Jesus as that Messiah--the Christian Messiah! There can be no acceptance, by the Jews, of a Jewish Messiah *before* Christ's return, unless it is Messianic Jews who accept Jesus as the Jewish Messiah.

I wasn't talking about Messianic Jews. I was talking about regular Jews. Regular Jews also mention Messiah in their prayers -- but they don't believe that Messiah is Jesus. Hence the obvious question: are they

a) Praying for coming of Jesus without realizing it
b) Praying for coming of antichrist
c) Praying for some "third" Messiah

Once again, I am talking about regular Jews NOT Messianic ones

With Messianic Jews the answer is "a", its no-brainer. But with regular Jews its a lot more interesting.

Truth is truth, whether it is religious or secular. Secular Philosophy, however, is a different animal--an "untamed animal."

I agree. And those two statements put together imply that "untamed animal" can tell the truth -- if I am lucky -- hence the fun of speculation.

So you think a 3rd Messiah for the Jews might come to satisfy some sense of sociological development?

Exactly. Since Jews don't believe their messiah to be divine nor do they believe their Messiah to be savior in a sense of an afterlife, to them its all about sociological development.

I don't find the Scriptures to depict the Jews as "evolving" in this way.

But thats their current view of Messiah though -- ask any Jewish rabbi thats not messianic.

They are ignorant antichristians themselves, and yet not all guilty of following any particular antichrist. They just reject Christianity until Christ returns. There is no evolution towards embrace of a Messiah--only nationalism, or Zionism.

Go to some synagoge thats NOT Messianic, and you will note they WILL mention Messiah in their prayers -- its just that said Messiah won't be Jesus. Hence the question as to whom exactly are they referring to.

Well yes, you make a good point. Antisemitism, however, has historical connotations, and we must take pains to avoid association with the "bad" kind. So we should just criticize the Jewish People if, as a group, they deserve criticism. But we should avoid lumping them all together as "against Christianity." They may, as a people, largely reject Christianity. But this doesn't mean they all hate Christians.

When we go beyond criticizing Jews to *hating them* then we are in anti-Semitic territory. I believe Replacement Theology in the Church began as a legitimate criticism of the Jewish People, but as a misrepresentation of biblical prophecy. However, when it became judgmental and overly harsh, it became something sinful and evil.

I think it would be one of the tools antichrist will use: he will bring up historic guilt of antisemitism in order to make people put the Jews on a pedestal, which would be part of endtime deception. Just like the globalisation will be brought about by the historic guilt of racism.

Speculation is fine. I'm indulging in it myself.

Good

I'm not saying you're necessarily wrong--only that I'm not sure you're right! For example, there have been people of Jewish stock who have created some of the worst antichrists in history. Karl Marx was of the Jewish persuasion, and produced Communism, a wicked antichrist in recent history. Jews may have contributed, significantly, to the rise of Western Liberal Religion, which is a dilution of Christian orthodoxy. This also is a form of serious antiChristianity, in my opinion.

I agree. But none of those "premature antichrists" fulfilled messianic hope, so I am saying "maybe some other PREMATURE antichrist will come that WILL fulfill messinic hope". That would be the "third Messiah".

Well no, the Jews that were willing to become "Hellenized" under Antiochus 4 were quite willing to give up their "God" in a sense. And it would be no different with Antichrist. They would simply replace the more orthodox sense of "God" with the Antichristian sense of "God."

But statistics seems different. Back then it was 50% of Jews that were faithful and 50% of Jews that weren't; but right now its like 1% of Jews thats faithful and 99% that isn't.

It doesn't really matter, to me, if there is some possible premature Antichrist who shows up to gather the Jews under his wings. The Jews are already guilty of embracing a number of historical antichrists, as I've already indicated.

Well, the way it matters is that when Jews pray for Messiah that prayer would be less dreadful if it refers to premature antichrist than it would be if it refers to real antichrist.

Yes, I get that. The Scriptures indicate that as Antichrist is coming, so already there have been many antichrists. Premature antichrists show up in every generation, and the Jews have embraced some of them. Some antichrists are so vile that the Jews *cannot* embrace them, eg Hitler.

Its strange the way you put it that Jews opposed HItler because he was vile while totally overlooking the other factor that he focused his persecution on Jews specifically. Or are you saying that if Jews were to like him then he would have liked them as well? I mean its hard to believe, since he wrote Main Kampf long before Jews had chance to oppose him. Or are you saying Jews had a chance to prove him wrong so to speak?

But in our time, I can't see hundreds of more years passing.

Actually there is a reason to believe it would be quite a while. If endtimes were to happen now, then one of the political leaders would have to be the antichrist. HOwever, I can disqualify Obama, Trump, and anyone else you might think of on the simple fact that none of them have 99% support. Most of the todays polititians who were accused of being antichrist are polarizing figures, which means that 50% of people really like them and the other 50% really hate them. But thats not what the real antichrist will be like. With real antichrist 99% of people will like him and 1% will hate him. This didn't happen yet. Stalin and Hitler were much better candidates since they got 99% support in their respective countries -- but even they didn't make it since they didn't get to rule over other countries, which is the other reason we don't have the antichrist yet. Neither Obama nor Trump runs the world, they only run the US. So I guess we would have to look at NATO then, but I can't think of anyone in NATO whom everyone likes and admires the way they liked and admired Stalin and Hitler.

There is yet another reason why the end times might not be as close as some think. The mark of the beast is Revelation 13. But prior to Revelation 13 all kinds of other things have to happen. Such as sealing of 144000, the preaching of the 2 wittnesses, those 2 wittnesses being killed and then rising on the third day (which is still Revelation 11, two chapters BEFORE the 13) and so forth. Also what about locusts, water turning into blood, and all that other stuff?

By the way, things like water turning into blood is a reason why antichrist would NOT be Jewish messiah since Jews expect prosperity. That would, in turn, imply that if Jewish messiah were to come on the scene, it would be one of the "premature antichrists".

The restoration of national Israel is very significant in prophecy, in my opinion, and there is great danger for the Jews there.

But that is only one of the prophecies to be fulfilled, but not the only one. First of all, you don't know whether "son of perdition sitting in the temple of God" refers to the rebuilt temple of Jerusalem OR whether it refers to Vatican OR something else (such as Mecca and so forth). We are just speculating. But EVEN IF it were to refer to the rebuilt temple in Jerusalem, it doesn't say that it happens immediately after the temple is rebuilt; it might happen several years later. And if it happens several years later, that would give plenty of room for "premature antichrist" to sit in that temple.

The Scriptures dictate God will rescue them before they are completely obliterated. So I don't see hundreds of years remaining for Israel or for the world, particularly with the increase of violence and nuclear weapons. And as the Christian West becomes less and less Christian, I believe the only possibility is that THE Antichrist will come--not a premature one.

But its possible that the type of apostasy God will be rescuing them from is far worse than what you see today. I mean, if you were to tell someone in the 19-th century about homosexuality, abortion, etc. etc. they would never believe that it would happen -- yet here we are, its happening. So how do you know that we wouldn't be having things like legalised paedophilia, zoophilia, cannibalism and so forth -- which we would never believe today would happen but it will -- and THATS what God will be rescuing us from?

I think we're experiencing a "disconnect?" The Jewish Messiah and the Christian Messiah cannot be 2 separate individuals unless the Jewish Messiah is a *false Messiah!*

1) If Jewish messiah is false messiah it doesn't mean its antichrist, it might be a premature antichrist

2) If its premature antichrist then why does it have to be bad? Jews don't believe their messiah is God, also they don't believe their messiah is savior either, the sole mission of their messiah is make peace and prosperity here on earth. So if Jewish messiah comes and brings peace and prosperity WITHOUT making people worship him and WITHOUT claiming to be God, then what is so wrong about it? There is no idolatry in that is there? Thats why I said that it might be antisemitic to oppose Jewish Messiah.

3) Going back to the possibility that something MIGHT be wrong with Jewish Messiah, maybe people will make point 2 as part of the deception.

When Messianic Jews in our day embrace the "Jewish Messiah," they are embracing Jesus as that Messiah--the Christian Messiah! There can be no acceptance, by the Jews, of a Jewish Messiah *before* Christ's return, unless it is Messianic Jews who accept Jesus as the Jewish Messiah.

I wasn't talking about Messianic Jews. I was talking about regular Jews. Regular Jews also mention Messiah in their prayers -- but they don't believe that Messiah is Jesus. Hence the obvious question: are they

a) Praying for coming of Jesus without realizing it
b) Praying for coming of antichrist
c) Praying for some "third" Messiah

Once again, I am talking about regular Jews NOT Messianic ones

With Messianic Jews the answer is "a", its no-brainer. But with regular Jews its a lot more interesting.

Truth is truth, whether it is religious or secular. Secular Philosophy, however, is a different animal--an "untamed animal."

I agree. And those two statements put together imply that "untamed animal" can tell the truth -- if I am lucky -- hence the fun of speculation.

So you think a 3rd Messiah for the Jews might come to satisfy some sense of sociological development?

Exactly. Since Jews don't believe their messiah to be divine nor do they believe their Messiah to be savior in a sense of an afterlife, to them its all about sociological development.

I don't find the Scriptures to depict the Jews as "evolving" in this way.

But thats their current view of Messiah though -- ask any Jewish rabbi thats not messianic.

They are ignorant antichristians themselves, and yet not all guilty of following any particular antichrist. They just reject Christianity until Christ returns. There is no evolution towards embrace of a Messiah--only nationalism, or Zionism.

Go to some synagoge thats NOT Messianic, and you will note they WILL mention Messiah in their prayers -- its just that said Messiah won't be Jesus. Hence the question as to whom exactly are they referring to.

Well yes, you make a good point. Antisemitism, however, has historical connotations, and we must take pains to avoid association with the "bad" kind. So we should just criticize the Jewish People if, as a group, they deserve criticism. But we should avoid lumping them all together as "against Christianity." They may, as a people, largely reject Christianity. But this doesn't mean they all hate Christians.

When we go beyond criticizing Jews to *hating them* then we are in anti-Semitic territory. I believe Replacement Theology in the Church began as a legitimate criticism of the Jewish People, but as a misrepresentation of biblical prophecy. However, when it became judgmental and overly harsh, it became something sinful and evil.

I think it would be one of the tools antichrist will use: he will bring up historic guilt of antisemitism in order to make people put the Jews on a pedestal, which would be part of endtime deception. Just like the globalisation will be brought about by the historic guilt of racism.

Speculation is fine. I'm indulging in it myself.

Good

[randyk]

Re: Where does Jewish messiah fits in?

But statistics seems different. Back then it was 50% of Jews that were faithful and 50% of Jews that weren't; but right now its like 1% of Jews thats faithful and 99% that isn't.

Yes, the Hebrew condition was different under Antiochus 4 than the Jewish condition will be under Antichrist. I don't know the ratio of bad Jews to Jews who are open to the truth? If 99% of the Jewish People embrace a premature Antichrist, there is not much hope for a restoration of national Israel under Jesus! So, I think that a much larger % of the Jewish People may accept a more benign form of antiChristianity, but will not embrace an openly antiChristian king as the Messiah. The Messiah is, in Hebrew lore, to bring peace to the whole earth.

Well, the way it matters is that when Jews pray for Messiah that prayer would be less dreadful if it refers to premature antichrist than it would be if it refers to real antichrist.

We have to define what a "premature antichrist" would look like? If he is a messianic figure, he would have to fit the messianic prophecies. And if he is an "antichrist," then he would have to fit those prophecies, as well.

Its strange the way you put it that Jews opposed HItler because he was vile while totally overlooking the other factor that he focused his persecution on Jews specifically. Or are you saying that if Jews were to like him then he would have liked them as well? I mean its hard to believe, since he wrote Main Kampf long before Jews had chance to oppose him. Or are you saying Jews had a chance to prove him wrong so to speak?

You're missing my point. I'm saying the Jews could not embrace a certain kind of antichrist as Messiah if he is the kind of antichrist who persecutes and annihilates Jews!

Actually there is a reason to believe it would be quite a while. If endtimes were to happen now, then one of the political leaders would have to be the antichrist. HOwever, I can disqualify Obama, Trump, and anyone else you might think of on the simple fact that none of them have 99% support. Most of the todays polititians who were accused of being antichrist are polarizing figures, which means that 50% of people really like them and the other 50% really hate them. But thats not what the real antichrist will be like. With real antichrist 99% of people will like him and 1% will hate him. This didn't happen yet. Stalin and Hitler were much better candidates since they got 99% support in their respective countries -- but even they didn't make it since they didn't get to rule over other countries, which is the other reason we don't have the antichrist yet. Neither Obama nor Trump runs the world, they only run the US. So I guess we would have to look at NATO then, but I can't think of anyone in NATO whom everyone likes and admires the way they liked and admired Stalin and Hitler.

None of the figures you mentioned would qualify, in my book, as an antichrist. The definition of the Antichrist is one who is a kind of emperor, ruling over a 10 nation confederation, and putting fear on the whole world. Men worship him, I think, out of fear, until the Battle of Armageddon. Embracing him as a world leader to be feared and admired is not the same thing as "liking him." To "worship him" is to fear him as a divine figure. People may not "like" God, but still fear Him, and worship Him as God.

Don't underestimate how quickly Europe can form into the kind of confederation I'm describing. There is already a European Union of European countries. How quickly can another "Hitler" arise to take control over this Union?

There is yet another reason why the end times might not be as close as some think. The mark of the beast is Revelation 13. But prior to Revelation 13 all kinds of other things have to happen. Such as sealing of 144000, the preaching of the 2 wittnesses, those 2 wittnesses being killed and then rising on the third day (which is still Revelation 11, two chapters BEFORE the 13) and so forth. Also what about locusts, water turning into blood, and all that other stuff?

I believe all these things take place in the same time frame. The 3.5 year reign of Antichrist is simultaneous with the 3.5 year testimony of the 2 Witnesses.

By the way, things like water turning into blood is a reason why antichrist would NOT be Jewish messiah since Jews expect prosperity. That would, in turn, imply that if Jewish messiah were to come on the scene, it would be one of the "premature antichrists".

"Water turning to blood" may be symbolic of the wars arising after Antichrist takes power. I'm not sure at all that all Jews will accept Antichrist as their "Messiah?" There isn't a whole lot in the Scriptures, if at all, about the Jewish People embracing a false Messiah--just the prediction of Jesus that there were to be "false Christs and false prophets." I don't see much about Israel embracing a particular "false Christ?"

Many Jews in the Early Church embraced false prophets of victory over the Romans, and were destroyed. In the endtimes, many Jews may also embrace a Messiah figure, as well. I just don't see much detail on it?

But that is only one of the prophecies to be fulfilled, but not the only one. First of all, you don't know whether "son of perdition sitting in the temple of God" refers to the rebuilt temple of Jerusalem OR whether it refers to Vatican OR something else (such as Mecca and so forth). We are just speculating. But EVEN IF it were to refer to the rebuilt temple in Jerusalem, it doesn't say that it happens immediately after the temple is rebuilt; it might happen several years later. And if it happens several years later, that would give plenty of room for "premature antichrist" to sit in that temple.

I don't believe in a rebuilt temple of Law in Israel. Antichrist simply assumes the position of Deity, whether that involves an actual building or simply a posture.

But its possible that the type of apostasy God will be rescuing them from is far worse than what you see today. I mean, if you were to tell someone in the 19-th century about homosexuality, abortion, etc. etc. they would never believe that it would happen -- yet here we are, its happening. So how do you know that we wouldn't be having things like legalised paedophilia, zoophilia, cannibalism and so forth -- which we would never believe today would happen but it will -- and THATS what God will be rescuing us from?

Because sin tends to increase exponentially. It took centuries for Christian civilization to lose its moral standards as blatantly as it is today. Only the presence of significant numbers of churches keep God's judgment at bay.

1) If Jewish messiah is false messiah it doesn't mean its antichrist, it might be a premature antichrist

2) If its premature antichrist then why does it have to be bad? Jews don't believe their messiah is God, also they don't believe their messiah is savior either, the sole mission of their messiah is make peace and prosperity here on earth. So if Jewish messiah comes and brings peace and prosperity WITHOUT making people worship him and WITHOUT claiming to be God, then what is so wrong about it? There is no idolatry in that is there? Thats why I said that it might be antisemitic to oppose Jewish Messiah.

It's *bad,* in any case, if we're talking about an "antichrist!" It is not wrong for Christians to defend themselves against *antiChristianity!* This is not antisemitism!

3) Going back to the possibility that something MIGHT be wrong with Jewish Messiah, maybe people will make point 2 as part of the deception....
I wasn't talking about Messianic Jews. I was talking about regular Jews. Regular Jews also mention Messiah in their prayers -- but they don't believe that Messiah is Jesus. Hence the obvious question: are they

a) Praying for coming of Jesus without realizing it
b) Praying for coming of antichrist
c) Praying for some "third" Messiah

They are praying for the coming of the biblical Messiah, for the Age to Come, for the Jewish Hope. They don't know that this Messiah is Jesus. But one day they will see.

Once again, I am talking about regular Jews NOT Messianic ones

With Messianic Jews the answer is "a", its no-brainer. But with regular Jews its a lot more interesting.

I agree. And those two statements put together imply that "untamed animal" can tell the truth -- if I am lucky -- hence the fun of speculation.



Exactly. Since Jews don't believe their messiah to be divine nor do they believe their Messiah to be savior in a sense of an afterlife, to them its all about sociological development.

But thats their current view of Messiah though -- ask any Jewish rabbi thats not messianic.

Go to some synagoge thats NOT Messianic, and you will note they WILL mention Messiah in their prayers -- its just that said Messiah won't be Jesus. Hence the question as to whom exactly are they referring to.

I think it would be one of the tools antichrist will use: he will bring up historic guilt of antisemitism in order to make people put the Jews on a pedestal, which would be part of endtime deception. Just like the globalisation will be brought about by the historic guilt of racism.

The Jews don't know the Messiah they wait for will be Jesus. To accept a premature form of Messiah would require that he accomplish what Messiah is supposed to do. Antichrist may promise peace on earth, and premature antichrists may do the same. But they cannot deliver on that promise.

So Jews may accept a premature Messiah who is really just another antichrist. But this has happened all through history. Even Rabbinic Judaism is a form of antichrist. Their hope in Messiah is actually antichristian.

As serious as this is, it does not prevent the nation from being corrected at the coming of Jesus. Many Jesus may be correctable on the day Jesus returns. Most Jews will embrace the Messiah they universally wait for only when he brings peace on earth, and final deliverance to the Jewish People.

[TMarcum]

Re: Where does Jewish messiah fits in?

No, he didn't cause the deception. He merely protects it.

Paul says, "God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie".

2 Thessalonians 2
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

[ewq1938]

Re: Where does Jewish messiah fits in?

Paul says, "God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie".

2 Thessalonians 2
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

You are ignoring that they already rejected the truth before God blinded them.

"because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved."

"who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness"

God simply blinded people who already rejected the truth so God kept them in their disbelieving condition. When God lifts the blindness, these people will still reject the truth as they did before being blinded.

[TMarcum]

Re: Where does Jewish messiah fits in?

You are ignoring that they already rejected the truth before God blinded them.

"because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved."

"who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness"

God simply blinded people who already rejected the truth so God kept them in their disbelieving condition. When God lifts the blindness, these people will still reject the truth as they did before being blinded.

I am not ignoring this fact, I am reinforcing the fact, that God has his hand in this. I never suggested or implied these were Christians. So of course it is for "those who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness". By default, these are the unsaved. There are only (2) categories, the saved and the unsaved. And we have a promise of God that he will never forsake his own, nor will he ever turn any of his saved over to Satan.

So, of course it applies to the ones who have rejected Christ. And it is God who prevents them from coming to the knowledge of the truth.

[ewq1938]

Re: Where does Jewish messiah fits in?

So, of course it applies to the ones who have rejected Christ. And it is God who prevents them from coming to the knowledge of the truth.

God is only blinding those who already choose not to believe so he isn't the one who decided they shouldn't or couldn't believe. They choose that. God only kept their own decision protected so they would continue in disbelief.

[TMarcum]

Re: Where does Jewish messiah fits in?

God is only blinding those who already choose not to believe so he isn't the one who decided they shouldn't or couldn't believe. They choose that. God only kept their own decision protected so they would continue in disbelief.

I have agreed with you all alone, whole heartedly. Yes, they already chose not to believe, and he will "let" them continue in that same unbelief.

So in essence, you just ended up taking the long way around, to only end up at the same conclusion; which I've been making from the beginning:

Which is; it is God that shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie. And this is exactly what the bible says regardless how you interpret it.


2 Thessalonians 2
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

[ewq1938]

Re: Where does Jewish messiah fits in?

I have agreed with you all alone, whole heartedly. Yes, they already chose not to believe, and he will "let" them continue in that same unbelief.

So God cannot be blamed for causing this unbelief. All God did was ensure the unbelief would continue.

[TMarcum]

Re: Where does Jewish messiah fits in?

So God cannot be blamed for causing this unbelief. All God did was ensure the unbelief would continue.

Amen, my Brother!

So God cannot be blamed for causing this unbelief. All God did was ensure the unbelief would continue.

Amen, my Brother!

[ewq1938]

Re: Where does Jewish messiah fits in?

Amen, my Brother!

So, "it is God that causes their deception." is not a true statement. They were deceived before God sent them delusion because they already loved not the truth. This would be self deception or deception from Satan to cause them to reject the truth. God wanted them to stay in that condition so he sends delusion to keep them in his unbelief.

2Th 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

lying wonders that deceive people.

2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

They loved not the truth because of the lying wonders and all deceivableness of unrighteousness...or being deceived by unrighteous things.


2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

This is God's reaction to an already existing condition of being deceived and believing lying wonders.

2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

He kept them in their unrighteous "deceivableness".

[TMarcum]

Re: Where does Jewish messiah fits in?

So, "it is God that causes their deception." is not a true statement. They were deceived before God sent them delusion because they already loved not the truth. This would be self deception or deception from Satan to cause them to reject the truth. God wanted them to stay in that condition so he sends delusion to keep them in his unbelief.

2Th 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

lying wonders that deceive people.

2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

They loved not the truth because of the lying wonders and all deceivableness of unrighteousness...or being deceived by unrighteous things.


2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

This is God's reaction to an already existing condition of being deceived and believing lying wonders.

2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

He kept them in their unrighteous "deceivableness".

Yes, It's all God.

[ewq1938]

Re: Where does Jewish messiah fits in?

Yes, It's all God.

That's not what God says in that passage.