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John 14:2 Many Rooms

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  • #91
    Re: John 14:2 Many Rooms

    Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
    The father's house is a reference to heaven not any earthly building. That's why Christ said he had to leave the disciples to go to the place where the Father's house was.
    Is there corroboration anywhere that mansions exist in heaven?

    Comment


    • #92
      Re: John 14:2 Many Rooms

      Originally posted by Christinme View Post
      I don't consider this verse or this chapter to be referring to ONLY a change in our physical form ... actually I think that isn't what the emphasis is at all ... I don't think it is saying we will them be able to describe his physical attributes ... I think it is speaking like the whole chapter is about our mindset. We will see Him as he is because we will have the same mindset as Him ...
      Makes no difference what "you consider the passage to mean". The passage speaks for itself.

      Originally posted by Christinme View Post
      I will list the verse again ...

      2 Corinthians 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

      Reading the context Paul talks about how Moses had to put a veil on his face ... we don't we can with open (unveiled) face behold as in a mirror the glory of the Lord ... we behold the glory of the Lord and in beholding it we are changed/transformed as we behold the glory of the Lord and the change/transformation is from the Lord the Spirit ... that is how I see it ... so we behold the glory of the Lord and we are changed/transformed into the same image ... so yes we can behold it but we cannot touch it ... I agree with what you say here ... however we with open (unveiled) face can behold the glory of the Lord ... and doing so we are changed/transformed into the same image "from glory to glory" ... what does "from glory to glory" mean ... I don't see how your understanding takes into account these words ... and I never said "Christ is formed in stages in the heart of a believer" ... I would more say it like "The heart of a believer more conforms to Christ in stages." As I said earlier in my last post ... Christ is in us and we are in Christ ... however we change/transform IF WE ARE MATURING to more and more (glory by glory) reflect the Christ in us ...
      The fact you compared the glory of the Mosaic covenant to that of Christ shows how far off you are. In the same 2 Cor 3 where you based your case, a few verses earlier Paul said the following (see below) to highlight that what he meant in v-18 cannot be compared with Moses covering his face with a veil.

      2 Cor 3:13 And not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:

      Originally posted by Christinme View Post
      Again I didn't say that Christ is formed in stages in our lives ... my above response should deal with that ... our mindset becomes more and more as His mindset as we renew our mind and not conform to this world ... and that does happen in stages ... however Christ is in us and we are in Christ ... If we are maturing "Christ is being formed in us" meaning we are maturing and becoming more and more Christlike ... and this is a process if we are maturing ...
      OK.

      Comment


      • #93
        Re: John 14:2 Many Rooms

        Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
        Is there corroboration anywhere that mansions exist in heaven?


        2Co 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
        2Co 5:2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
        2Co 5:3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
        2Co 5:4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
        James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

        Comment


        • #94
          Re: John 14:2 Many Rooms

          Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
          Makes no difference what "you consider the passage to mean". The passage speaks for itself.
          Lol, you mean to say you are the determiner to say what the passage says ... cuz that is how it comes across. I will continue to give my understanding as my understanding while you continue to give your understanding as what God meant ...



          Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
          The fact you compared the glory of the Mosaic covenant to that of Christ shows how far off you are. In the same 2 Cor 3 where you based your case, a few verses earlier Paul said the following (see below) to highlight that what he meant in v-18 cannot be compared with Moses covering his face with a veil.

          2 Cor 3:13 And not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
          You might want to reread ... I didn't compare the glory of the Mosaic covenant to that of Christ ... I was saying that Paul explained here how they were different ...

          Originally posted by Christinme View Post
          Reading the context Paul talks about how Moses had to put a veil on his face ... we don't we can with open (unveiled) face behold as in a mirror the glory of the Lord ...
          Now maybe instead of telling me how far off I am ... you can go back to the post and address what I asked you ...

          Originally posted by Christinme View Post
          what does "from glory to glory" mean ... I don't see how your understanding takes into account these words

          Also considering that you had trouble comprehending what I said here and tried to say I "compared the glory of the Mosaic covenant to that of Christ" and also that you earlier said that I said "Christ is formed in stages in the heart of a believer" seems to illustrate that your understanding of what is written is not always correct. Also maybe you might want to tone down the put downs ... like ...

          Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
          shows how far off you are.

          There are a couple more of my posts to you that you seemed to "skip over" ... do you have no response to those?

          https://bibleforums.org/showthread.p...79#post3517079

          https://bibleforums.org/showthread.p...86#post3517086

          Now that I have addressed this latest post of yours to me, I will go back and address others you made to me ...
          ***
          Lead me in Your truth and teach me,
          For You are the God of my salvation;
          On You I wait all the day.

          Psalms 25:5
          ***

          Comment


          • #95
            Re: John 14:2 Many Rooms

            Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
            So you believe that the OT saints have risen? What about Apostle Stephen and all the NT saints that died from the 1st century to date, have they resurrected too?
            So you want to explain how you understand Matthew 27:50-53? When you do then I will respond to your questions. I am doing that because I find you being quite evasive at responding to my questions.

            Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
            The ambiguity of your position is your inability to clarify that Jesus never said that Christians will not die physically, except those alive at the time of the rapture. So in essence, when Jesus said in John 11:26 that believers shall never die, he was referring to the second death (death of the soul) not the physical.
            I will also deal with this when you answer the above concerning Matthew 27:50-53 ... I will say though that Jesus didn't specify anything but that believers would never die ... and it was Paul that said "we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds" ... and I believe both these verses. I will ask though if you think these physical bodies we have when these physical bodies die that it will be these physical bodies that are "resurrected" ... and then these physical bodies that died are "resurrected" and then are transformed???
            ***
            Lead me in Your truth and teach me,
            For You are the God of my salvation;
            On You I wait all the day.

            Psalms 25:5
            ***

            Comment


            • #96
              Re: John 14:2 Many Rooms

              Originally posted by randyk View Post
              I don't believe John 14.3 has anything to do with rebirth, or with being Baptized in the Holy Spirit. It has to do with Christ returning to glorify his Church, since he had gone to the cross and had prepared a place for us in his Kingdom, redemptively.
              I think both can be what is spoken of here ... not that I necessarily agree with your premil explanation ... however I don't want to turn this thread into premil/postmil/amil discussion ...
              ***
              Lead me in Your truth and teach me,
              For You are the God of my salvation;
              On You I wait all the day.

              Psalms 25:5
              ***

              Comment


              • #97
                Re: John 14:2 Many Rooms

                Originally posted by Christinme View Post
                I think both can be what is spoken of here ... not that I necessarily agree with your premil explanation ... however I don't want to turn this thread into premil/postmil/amil discussion ...
                Just 2 points, and neither is necessarily part of the pre, a, post mil position argument.

                1) I will go and make a place for you. This is not Jesus going to heaven to build a mansion there. Rather, it is Jesus going to the cross to enable men to live on the new earth with Christ forever.

                2) The rooms in the mansion are purely symbolic of membership on the new earth. Jesus used the reference, perhaps, to God's temple, in order to convey placement in that temple with himself. The new temple will be membership in the new Jerusalem, which is located on the new earth.

                Comment


                • #98
                  Re: John 14:2 Many Rooms

                  Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
                  2Co 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
                  2Co 5:2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
                  2Co 5:3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
                  2Co 5:4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
                  None of these passages speak of a heavenly mansion but rather, our spiritual body. Our 'earthly house' denotes our flesh. Paul is arguing that when our flesh dies in death, (we put on as on the day of resurrection) our spiritual, immortal body made by God in heaven. For example, 2 Cor 5:2 says we earnestly desire to be clothed upon with our *house which is from heaven*. To be clothed upon means to put on a piece of clothing, like an apparel.

                  So the question for you to ponder is whether a building/mansion is something one can be clothed with?

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    Re: John 14:2 Many Rooms

                    Originally posted by Christinme View Post
                    Lol, you mean to say you are the determiner to say what the passage says ... cuz that is how it comes across. I will continue to give my understanding as my understanding while you continue to give your understanding as what God meant ...

                    You might want to reread ... I didn't compare the glory of the Mosaic covenant to that of Christ ... I was saying that Paul explained here how they were different ... Now maybe instead of telling me how far off I am ... you can go back to the post and address what I asked you ...

                    Also considering that you had trouble comprehending what I said here and tried to say I "compared the glory of the Mosaic covenant to that of Christ" and also that you earlier said that I said "Christ is formed in stages in the heart of a believer" seems to illustrate that your understanding of what is written is not always correct. Also maybe you might want to tone down the put downs ... like ...

                    here are a couple more of my posts to you that you seemed to "skip over" ... do you have no response to those?

                    https://bibleforums.org/showthread.p...79#post3517079

                    https://bibleforums.org/showthread.p...86#post3517086

                    Now that I have addressed this latest post of yours to me, I will go back and address others you made to me ...
                    I have no desire to continue this debate. Thank you.

                    Comment


                    • Re: John 14:2 Many Rooms

                      Originally posted by Christinme View Post
                      So you want to explain how you understand Matthew 27:50-53? When you do then I will respond to your questions. I am doing that because I find you being quite evasive at responding to my questions.
                      There is nothing in scripture that suggests these resurrected people ascended into heaven. Scripture only said that they went into the city and appeared unto many (Matt 27:53). Ergo, claiming they went to heaven is an assumption not made by scripture. Peter confirmed in Acts 2:29 that the OT saints are still in the grave.

                      I will also deal with this when you answer the above concerning Matthew 27:50-53 ... I will say though that Jesus didn't specify anything but that believers would never die ... and it was Paul that said "we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds" ... and I believe both these verses. I will ask though if you think these physical bodies we have when these physical bodies die that it will be these physical bodies that are "resurrected" ... and then these physical bodies that died are "resurrected" and then are transformed???
                      So aPaul used the analogy of the planted crop in 1 Cor 15:35-44 to demonstrate that it is not the flesh buried that is resurrected. At the resurrection, what is risen is the spiritual immortal body that God promised us.

                      Comment


                      • Re: John 14:2 Many Rooms

                        Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
                        None of these passages speak of a heavenly mansion but rather, our spiritual body. Our 'earthly house' denotes our flesh. Paul is arguing that when our flesh dies in death, (we put on as on the day of resurrection) our spiritual, immortal body made by God in heaven. For example, 2 Cor 5:2 says we earnestly desire to be clothed upon with our *house which is from heaven*. To be clothed upon means to put on a piece of clothing, like an apparel.

                        So the question for you to ponder is whether a building/mansion is something one can be clothed with?
                        Yes.

                        A mansion in heaven is the same as a building or house in heaven which Paul says is the new body we receive and put on.
                        James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

                        Comment


                        • Re: John 14:2 Many Rooms

                          Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
                          I have no desire to continue this debate. Thank you.
                          I guess after all your putdowns and not answering questions that you don't want to continue ...
                          ***
                          Lead me in Your truth and teach me,
                          For You are the God of my salvation;
                          On You I wait all the day.

                          Psalms 25:5
                          ***

                          Comment


                          • Re: John 14:2 Many Rooms

                            Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
                            There is nothing in scripture that suggests these resurrected people ascended into heaven. Scripture only said that they went into the city and appeared unto many (Matt 27:53). Ergo, claiming they went to heaven is an assumption not made by scripture. Peter confirmed in Acts 2:29 that the OT saints are still in the grave.
                            Nothing in Scripture that suggests … I don't agree … is it totally spelled out either way … no …

                            And Acts 2:29 does not "confirm" that the OT saints are still in the grave … what Acts 2:29 confirms is that David DIED and his body was left to corruption … unlike Jesus' body … read the whole chapter … maybe if you weren't such a KJV advocate you would look at the tense of the verb in Acts 2:29 in Greek and see that it is died and is not dead.

                            https://biblehub.com/acts/2-29.htm


                            Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
                            So aPaul used the analogy of the planted crop in 1 Cor 15:35-44 to demonstrate that it is not the flesh buried that is resurrected. At the resurrection, what is risen is the spiritual immortal body that God promised us.
                            On this we agree …
                            ***
                            Lead me in Your truth and teach me,
                            For You are the God of my salvation;
                            On You I wait all the day.

                            Psalms 25:5
                            ***

                            Comment

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