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John 14:2 Many Rooms

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  • Christinme
    replied
    Re: John 14:2 Many Rooms

    Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
    There is nothing in scripture that suggests these resurrected people ascended into heaven. Scripture only said that they went into the city and appeared unto many (Matt 27:53). Ergo, claiming they went to heaven is an assumption not made by scripture. Peter confirmed in Acts 2:29 that the OT saints are still in the grave.
    Nothing in Scripture that suggests … I don't agree … is it totally spelled out either way … no …

    And Acts 2:29 does not "confirm" that the OT saints are still in the grave … what Acts 2:29 confirms is that David DIED and his body was left to corruption … unlike Jesus' body … read the whole chapter … maybe if you weren't such a KJV advocate you would look at the tense of the verb in Acts 2:29 in Greek and see that it is died and is not dead.

    https://biblehub.com/acts/2-29.htm


    Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
    So aPaul used the analogy of the planted crop in 1 Cor 15:35-44 to demonstrate that it is not the flesh buried that is resurrected. At the resurrection, what is risen is the spiritual immortal body that God promised us.
    On this we agree …

    Leave a comment:


  • Christinme
    replied
    Re: John 14:2 Many Rooms

    Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
    I have no desire to continue this debate. Thank you.
    I guess after all your putdowns and not answering questions that you don't want to continue ...

    Leave a comment:


  • ewq1938
    replied
    Re: John 14:2 Many Rooms

    Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
    None of these passages speak of a heavenly mansion but rather, our spiritual body. Our 'earthly house' denotes our flesh. Paul is arguing that when our flesh dies in death, (we put on as on the day of resurrection) our spiritual, immortal body made by God in heaven. For example, 2 Cor 5:2 says we earnestly desire to be clothed upon with our *house which is from heaven*. To be clothed upon means to put on a piece of clothing, like an apparel.

    So the question for you to ponder is whether a building/mansion is something one can be clothed with?
    Yes.

    A mansion in heaven is the same as a building or house in heaven which Paul says is the new body we receive and put on.

    Leave a comment:


  • Trivalee
    replied
    Re: John 14:2 Many Rooms

    Originally posted by Christinme View Post
    So you want to explain how you understand Matthew 27:50-53? When you do then I will respond to your questions. I am doing that because I find you being quite evasive at responding to my questions.
    There is nothing in scripture that suggests these resurrected people ascended into heaven. Scripture only said that they went into the city and appeared unto many (Matt 27:53). Ergo, claiming they went to heaven is an assumption not made by scripture. Peter confirmed in Acts 2:29 that the OT saints are still in the grave.

    I will also deal with this when you answer the above concerning Matthew 27:50-53 ... I will say though that Jesus didn't specify anything but that believers would never die ... and it was Paul that said "we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds" ... and I believe both these verses. I will ask though if you think these physical bodies we have when these physical bodies die that it will be these physical bodies that are "resurrected" ... and then these physical bodies that died are "resurrected" and then are transformed???
    So aPaul used the analogy of the planted crop in 1 Cor 15:35-44 to demonstrate that it is not the flesh buried that is resurrected. At the resurrection, what is risen is the spiritual immortal body that God promised us.

    Leave a comment:


  • Trivalee
    replied
    Re: John 14:2 Many Rooms

    Originally posted by Christinme View Post
    Lol, you mean to say you are the determiner to say what the passage says ... cuz that is how it comes across. I will continue to give my understanding as my understanding while you continue to give your understanding as what God meant ...

    You might want to reread ... I didn't compare the glory of the Mosaic covenant to that of Christ ... I was saying that Paul explained here how they were different ... Now maybe instead of telling me how far off I am ... you can go back to the post and address what I asked you ...

    Also considering that you had trouble comprehending what I said here and tried to say I "compared the glory of the Mosaic covenant to that of Christ" and also that you earlier said that I said "Christ is formed in stages in the heart of a believer" seems to illustrate that your understanding of what is written is not always correct. Also maybe you might want to tone down the put downs ... like ...

    here are a couple more of my posts to you that you seemed to "skip over" ... do you have no response to those?

    https://bibleforums.org/showthread.p...79#post3517079

    https://bibleforums.org/showthread.p...86#post3517086

    Now that I have addressed this latest post of yours to me, I will go back and address others you made to me ...
    I have no desire to continue this debate. Thank you.

    Leave a comment:


  • Trivalee
    replied
    Re: John 14:2 Many Rooms

    Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
    2Co 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
    2Co 5:2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
    2Co 5:3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
    2Co 5:4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
    None of these passages speak of a heavenly mansion but rather, our spiritual body. Our 'earthly house' denotes our flesh. Paul is arguing that when our flesh dies in death, (we put on as on the day of resurrection) our spiritual, immortal body made by God in heaven. For example, 2 Cor 5:2 says we earnestly desire to be clothed upon with our *house which is from heaven*. To be clothed upon means to put on a piece of clothing, like an apparel.

    So the question for you to ponder is whether a building/mansion is something one can be clothed with?

    Leave a comment:


  • randyk
    replied
    Re: John 14:2 Many Rooms

    Originally posted by Christinme View Post
    I think both can be what is spoken of here ... not that I necessarily agree with your premil explanation ... however I don't want to turn this thread into premil/postmil/amil discussion ...
    Just 2 points, and neither is necessarily part of the pre, a, post mil position argument.

    1) I will go and make a place for you. This is not Jesus going to heaven to build a mansion there. Rather, it is Jesus going to the cross to enable men to live on the new earth with Christ forever.

    2) The rooms in the mansion are purely symbolic of membership on the new earth. Jesus used the reference, perhaps, to God's temple, in order to convey placement in that temple with himself. The new temple will be membership in the new Jerusalem, which is located on the new earth.

    Leave a comment:


  • Christinme
    replied
    Re: John 14:2 Many Rooms

    Originally posted by randyk View Post
    I don't believe John 14.3 has anything to do with rebirth, or with being Baptized in the Holy Spirit. It has to do with Christ returning to glorify his Church, since he had gone to the cross and had prepared a place for us in his Kingdom, redemptively.
    I think both can be what is spoken of here ... not that I necessarily agree with your premil explanation ... however I don't want to turn this thread into premil/postmil/amil discussion ...

    Leave a comment:


  • Christinme
    replied
    Re: John 14:2 Many Rooms

    Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
    So you believe that the OT saints have risen? What about Apostle Stephen and all the NT saints that died from the 1st century to date, have they resurrected too?
    So you want to explain how you understand Matthew 27:50-53? When you do then I will respond to your questions. I am doing that because I find you being quite evasive at responding to my questions.

    Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
    The ambiguity of your position is your inability to clarify that Jesus never said that Christians will not die physically, except those alive at the time of the rapture. So in essence, when Jesus said in John 11:26 that believers shall never die, he was referring to the second death (death of the soul) not the physical.
    I will also deal with this when you answer the above concerning Matthew 27:50-53 ... I will say though that Jesus didn't specify anything but that believers would never die ... and it was Paul that said "we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds" ... and I believe both these verses. I will ask though if you think these physical bodies we have when these physical bodies die that it will be these physical bodies that are "resurrected" ... and then these physical bodies that died are "resurrected" and then are transformed???

    Leave a comment:


  • Christinme
    replied
    Re: John 14:2 Many Rooms

    Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
    Makes no difference what "you consider the passage to mean". The passage speaks for itself.
    Lol, you mean to say you are the determiner to say what the passage says ... cuz that is how it comes across. I will continue to give my understanding as my understanding while you continue to give your understanding as what God meant ...



    Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
    The fact you compared the glory of the Mosaic covenant to that of Christ shows how far off you are. In the same 2 Cor 3 where you based your case, a few verses earlier Paul said the following (see below) to highlight that what he meant in v-18 cannot be compared with Moses covering his face with a veil.

    2 Cor 3:13 And not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
    You might want to reread ... I didn't compare the glory of the Mosaic covenant to that of Christ ... I was saying that Paul explained here how they were different ...

    Originally posted by Christinme View Post
    Reading the context Paul talks about how Moses had to put a veil on his face ... we don't we can with open (unveiled) face behold as in a mirror the glory of the Lord ...
    Now maybe instead of telling me how far off I am ... you can go back to the post and address what I asked you ...

    Originally posted by Christinme View Post
    what does "from glory to glory" mean ... I don't see how your understanding takes into account these words

    Also considering that you had trouble comprehending what I said here and tried to say I "compared the glory of the Mosaic covenant to that of Christ" and also that you earlier said that I said "Christ is formed in stages in the heart of a believer" seems to illustrate that your understanding of what is written is not always correct. Also maybe you might want to tone down the put downs ... like ...

    Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
    shows how far off you are.

    There are a couple more of my posts to you that you seemed to "skip over" ... do you have no response to those?

    https://bibleforums.org/showthread.p...79#post3517079

    https://bibleforums.org/showthread.p...86#post3517086

    Now that I have addressed this latest post of yours to me, I will go back and address others you made to me ...

    Leave a comment:


  • ewq1938
    replied
    Re: John 14:2 Many Rooms

    Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
    Is there corroboration anywhere that mansions exist in heaven?


    2Co 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
    2Co 5:2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
    2Co 5:3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
    2Co 5:4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

    Leave a comment:


  • Trivalee
    replied
    Re: John 14:2 Many Rooms

    Originally posted by Christinme View Post
    I don't consider this verse or this chapter to be referring to ONLY a change in our physical form ... actually I think that isn't what the emphasis is at all ... I don't think it is saying we will them be able to describe his physical attributes ... I think it is speaking like the whole chapter is about our mindset. We will see Him as he is because we will have the same mindset as Him ...
    Makes no difference what "you consider the passage to mean". The passage speaks for itself.

    Originally posted by Christinme View Post
    I will list the verse again ...

    2 Corinthians 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

    Reading the context Paul talks about how Moses had to put a veil on his face ... we don't we can with open (unveiled) face behold as in a mirror the glory of the Lord ... we behold the glory of the Lord and in beholding it we are changed/transformed as we behold the glory of the Lord and the change/transformation is from the Lord the Spirit ... that is how I see it ... so we behold the glory of the Lord and we are changed/transformed into the same image ... so yes we can behold it but we cannot touch it ... I agree with what you say here ... however we with open (unveiled) face can behold the glory of the Lord ... and doing so we are changed/transformed into the same image "from glory to glory" ... what does "from glory to glory" mean ... I don't see how your understanding takes into account these words ... and I never said "Christ is formed in stages in the heart of a believer" ... I would more say it like "The heart of a believer more conforms to Christ in stages." As I said earlier in my last post ... Christ is in us and we are in Christ ... however we change/transform IF WE ARE MATURING to more and more (glory by glory) reflect the Christ in us ...
    The fact you compared the glory of the Mosaic covenant to that of Christ shows how far off you are. In the same 2 Cor 3 where you based your case, a few verses earlier Paul said the following (see below) to highlight that what he meant in v-18 cannot be compared with Moses covering his face with a veil.

    2 Cor 3:13 And not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:

    Originally posted by Christinme View Post
    Again I didn't say that Christ is formed in stages in our lives ... my above response should deal with that ... our mindset becomes more and more as His mindset as we renew our mind and not conform to this world ... and that does happen in stages ... however Christ is in us and we are in Christ ... If we are maturing "Christ is being formed in us" meaning we are maturing and becoming more and more Christlike ... and this is a process if we are maturing ...
    OK.

    Leave a comment:


  • Trivalee
    replied
    Re: John 14:2 Many Rooms

    Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
    The father's house is a reference to heaven not any earthly building. That's why Christ said he had to leave the disciples to go to the place where the Father's house was.
    Is there corroboration anywhere that mansions exist in heaven?

    Leave a comment:


  • Trivalee
    replied
    Re: John 14:2 Many Rooms

    Originally posted by Walls View Post
    But the grammar speaks of the present tense. John 14:3 gives the tenses as follows:

    "And if I go (future tense) and prepare a place for you, I will come again (future tense), and receive you unto myself; that where I am (PRESENT TENSE), there ye may be also."

    So the prediction, or prophecy is fulfilled when (i) our Lord returns, and (ii) the disciples are where Jesus was as He spoke. On the day He was crucified He went away. On the morning after His resurrection He had "not yet ascended to His Father" as He spoke to the woman at the tomb. They were not to touch Him because of that. But later, after sundown, he met with them and commanded them to touch and handle Him. This could not happen if (i) He had not ascended to His Father, and (ii) if he had not RETURNED. HE CAME AGAIN and after breathing Himself into His disciples, they, the disciples, were, at that moment (present tense), where our Lord was when He predicted these things.

    Pentecost is NOT MEANT. At Pentecost our Lord Jesus did NOT COME AGAIN. At Pentecost the Holy Spirit was not given to make man the ABODE of God. The Greek word means "furnished" or clothed with, and He was NOT given so that the disciples could be were Jesus was, otherwise they would have been translated to heaven. The disciples received the Holy Spirit FOR POWER - NOT TO BE IN THE FATHER AND THE FATHER IN THEM.
    These are the faults I found with your post:

    1. Your definition of the disciples being where Jesus (in my view this is not limited to the 12 disciples) Jesus is ALWAYS doesn't add up! Jesus said, "that where I am, there you may be also". Was this fulfilled when Jesus came to the disciples after his resurrection? NO! "There you may be also" doesn't suggest a temporary meet up, being with the Lord always is more appropriate given the context. But we all know that Jesus left the disciples when he ascended to heaven. I again, maintain that the promise of being where the Lord is will be fulfilled when the saints meet the Lord in the air to remain with him forever.

    2. John 14:3 was fulfilled in part at Pentecost. Jesus even provided the answer when he said in (John 14:23) Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

    You have to argue against scripture to claim this is not what the passage means.

    Leave a comment:


  • Trivalee
    replied
    Re: John 14:2 Many Rooms

    Originally posted by Christinme View Post
    I understand what you are explaining here ... and I do believe that all the "saints" who died before Christ are described here and that they also did rise after Christ and that they are in heaven ...

    However I also believe that believers will never die and that seems to mean that believers are not ever considered to be part of the DEAD. Now before I was a believer I was part of the DEAD ... I was dead in Adam ... now I am alive in Christ.

    John 11:26

    and whosoever liveth and believeth on me shall never die. Believest thou this?


    I believe this. So I do not believe when this old body (tent) of mine "dies" that I DIE because He says "whosoever liveth and believeth on me shall never die." ... So I am not sure why you would consider that we are discussing the DEAD when we speak about believers in Christ whose old body (tent) has "died" ... yes I can probably think of some places that seem to point to this ... and well might be worth discussing. But John 11:26 is straight from Jesus' mouth and seems to be very clear.

    Also 1 Corinthians 15 is such a puzzle ... I have a lot of problems seeing premil and I mostly see something like postmil or amil ... and from what I am seeing you are premil ...
    The ambiguity of your position is your inability to clarify that Jesus never said that Christians will not die physically, except those alive at the time of the rapture. So in essence, when Jesus said in John 11:26 that believers shall never die, he was referring to the second death (death of the soul) not the physical.

    Leave a comment:

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