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  • Re: universal judgment at Christ's Coming

    Originally posted by DurbanDude View Post
    Earth had a stronger magnetic field and thicker atmosphere, and had more oxygen before the PTr boundary.

    It has been proven that a strong magnetic field suspends more water in the air, there would have been more water in the air back then.

    Originally the Garden of Eden had just risen out the sea during creation week, it was highly unlikely to have been of any great heights. If most of the landmass was subsequently formed through huge ice caps dropping sea levels, the melt at the PT boundary would have then returned the landmass to that first appearance of land. The additional loss of water volumes from water vapor would have occurred during the proven magnetic reversal at the P-Tr boundary when suspended water from the strong magnetic field would have lost its suspension and started to fall as rain.

    To assume volumes of water vapor were the same before the flood as today, is illogical given the known conditions before the P-Tr boundary, and knowing the Bible describes a different atmosphere back then.
    Brother, I believe I was accounting for *all* of the water on earth! This includes precipitation, polar ice caps, icebergs, glaciers, and all of the surface and subterranean waters. The rain in sum would only cover the earth by a thin sheath. The ice would account for, at most, about 200' of water. All the clouds in the sky would not likely dump *all their rain* out at once! And if any terrain features on average rise above 200' the depth of a universal Flood would become negligible. And that is not likely given the necessary topography to allow the various land features mentioned in the Scriptures, including oceans, seas, bays, rivers, and mountains. There has to be highlands in order to contain bodies of water.

    If ocean waters are used to account for submerging the whole earth, we would have to see all the land on earth sink back down into the oceans, just as it was in the beginning of creation. You are basically going back to the idea of a sphere. That also didn't happen!

    Comment


    • Re: universal judgment at Christ's Coming

      Randy, hey brother has this verse been raised in this thread? I don't recall if I had or not and while reading, came upon it and thought of some of these threads that was dealing with creation, the flood etc?

      2 Peter 3: 5 For this they willfully forget: that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of water and in the water, 6 by which the world that then existed perished, being flooded with water.


      So you can guess my question/statement that is about to follow

      Since the "earth" standing out of the water" was the same earth destroyed by that water... do we stand on only a "part" of the earth was destroyed (not the whole earth) but NOT realizing that this means, only THAT part of the earth (which was destroyed) can ONLY be the earth that came out of the water
      Slug1--out

      ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

      ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

      ~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~


      ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~


      Comment


      • Re: universal judgment at Christ's Coming

        Randy, hey brother has this verse been raised in this thread? I don't recall if I had or not and while reading, came upon it and thought of some of these threads that was dealing with creation, the flood etc?

        2 Peter 3: 5 For this they willfully forget: that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of water and in the water, 6 by which the world that then existed perished, being flooded with water.


        So you can guess my question/statement that is about to follow

        Since the "earth" standing out of the water" was the same earth destroyed by that water... do we stand on only a "part" of the earth was destroyed (not the whole earth) but NOT realizing that this means, only THAT part of the earth (which was destroyed) can ONLY be the earth that came out of the water
        Slug1--out

        ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

        ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

        ~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~


        ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~


        Comment


        • Re: universal judgment at Christ's Coming

          Originally posted by Slug1 View Post
          Randy, hey brother has this verse been raised in this thread? I don't recall if I had or not and while reading, came upon it and thought of some of these threads that was dealing with creation, the flood etc?

          2 Peter 3: 5 For this they willfully forget: that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of water and in the water, 6 by which the world that then existed perished, being flooded with water.


          So you can guess my question/statement that is about to follow

          Since the "earth" standing out of the water" was the same earth destroyed by that water... do we stand on only a "part" of the earth was destroyed (not the whole earth) but NOT realizing that this means, only THAT part of the earth (which was destroyed) can ONLY be the earth that came out of the water
          It is a logical argument, but not foolproof for me personally. It is a matter of what the author meant by this? In general, the earth had been submerged in its primordial state, and had emerged, via tectonic action, out of the water, creating land masses.

          Gen 1.2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep... 9 And God said, “Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear.”

          The land was resubmerged during the Flood of Noah. No question that the text indicates this. But whether this indicates the total land mass of the earth, or only a representative sample of land in the region of Noah I don't know if the text can determine this?

          Did the earth resposition itself as a perfect sphere beneath the ocean, or did only land in the area of Noah become submerged, burying under water only all the land within Noah's region? The geological evidence seems to be in favor of the latter. We will have to come to grips with the science of geological dating for ourselves.

          My understanding is that the purpose of resubmerging the earth was to undo the purpose for the emergence of the land to begin with. The land initially emerged as a home for both the animals and men. To resubmerge the land is to foil the purpose of giving man a place to live.

          Clearly, the same earth God created as a home for Man was lost to the Flood. Whether this required a universal Flood or not is not clear to me. What is clear is what the text states, that what had once emerged out of the Sea would be resubmerged below the Sea, destroying Man's habitat in the region of Noah. I see nothing about the obliteration of all of the plants and fish? That would happen in a truly universal Flood!

          Furthermore, the indication is of a Local Flood, though of gigantic proportions, because the Flood Waters were said to have drained. If they were to drain, they had to have somewhere to drain to!

          Thanks for continuing to have interest in the subject. I will go where God's word leads me. But in this case, I'm not sure the text is at odds with science. I am interested in exactly what the text says, and though it does say what you say it says, I'm not sure it requires a Universal Flood?

          Comment


          • Re: universal judgment at Christ's Coming

            Yes, the flesh is fallen. There is no greater example that I have found than to see that at the end of the Millenium (if you believe in it), even with Christ ruling from Jerusalem, there will STILL be a revolt against God (Book of Revelation) by those who are alive and have not died physically (those who have died before or during the Millenium and are SAVED have a resurrected body).

            I believe that the flood was worldwide because God said it was. The waters covered the whole earth and no man survived. The flood was not just rain but also included water coming up from the "fountains of the deep" within the earth.

            Also keep in mind that some believe that the flood was used to kill off the Nephilim (offspring of fallen angels and women) mentioned in Genesis 6, Jude, and Peter.

            The Bible does not mention the world being blown up by man. It will not get destroyed but by God Himself when He burns it (Book of Revelation). There will definitely be some serious things happening before and during the Battle of Armageddon.

            Comment


            • Re: universal judgment at Christ's Coming

              Originally posted by randyk View Post
              It is a logical argument, but not foolproof for me personally. It is a matter of what the author meant by this? In general, the earth had been submerged in its primordial state, and had emerged, via tectonic action, out of the water, creating land masses.

              Gen 1.2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep... 9 And God said, “Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear.”

              The land was resubmerged during the Flood of Noah. No question that the text indicates this. But whether this indicates the total land mass of the earth, or only a representative sample of land in the region of Noah I don't know if the text can determine this?

              Did the earth resposition itself as a perfect sphere beneath the ocean, or did only land in the area of Noah become submerged, burying under water only all the land within Noah's region? The geological evidence seems to be in favor of the latter. We will have to come to grips with the science of geological dating for ourselves.

              My understanding is that the purpose of resubmerging the earth was to undo the purpose for the emergence of the land to begin with. The land initially emerged as a home for both the animals and men. To resubmerge the land is to foil the purpose of giving man a place to live.

              Clearly, the same earth God created as a home for Man was lost to the Flood. Whether this required a universal Flood or not is not clear to me. What is clear is what the text states, that what had once emerged out of the Sea would be resubmerged below the Sea, destroying Man's habitat in the region of Noah. I see nothing about the obliteration of all of the plants and fish? That would happen in a truly universal Flood!

              Furthermore, the indication is of a Local Flood, though of gigantic proportions, because the Flood Waters were said to have drained. If they were to drain, they had to have somewhere to drain to!

              Thanks for continuing to have interest in the subject. I will go where God's word leads me. But in this case, I'm not sure the text is at odds with science. I am interested in exactly what the text says, and though it does say what you say it says, I'm not sure it requires a Universal Flood?
              Brother, when science is trusted over God's Word....

              Have you watch that movie yet?
              Slug1--out

              ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

              ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

              ~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~


              ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~


              Comment


              • Re: universal judgment at Christ's Coming

                Originally posted by dailyprayerwarrior View Post
                Yes, the flesh is fallen. There is no greater example that I have found than to see that at the end of the Millenium (if you believe in it), even with Christ ruling from Jerusalem, there will STILL be a revolt against God (Book of Revelation) by those who are alive and have not died physically (those who have died before or during the Millenium and are SAVED have a resurrected body).

                I believe that the flood was worldwide because God said it was. The waters covered the whole earth and no man survived. The flood was not just rain but also included water coming up from the "fountains of the deep" within the earth.

                Also keep in mind that some believe that the flood was used to kill off the Nephilim (offspring of fallen angels and women) mentioned in Genesis 6, Jude, and Peter.

                The Bible does not mention the world being blown up by man. It will not get destroyed but by God Himself when He burns it (Book of Revelation). There will definitely be some serious things happening before and during the Battle of Armageddon.
                If you will look back into some of my earlier arguments you will see that I've not contested the language of the Scriptures, in this regard. I'm only contesting *your interpretation* of what this language means. It is perfectly acceptable, in my estimation, that "universal language" can apply in a local environment.

                For example, I could say "everything was destroyed," with respect to my house, without meaning that the whole world and the whole universe was destroyed.

                It is a bit different in our discussion, although I'm making the same arguments. To say "everything under the sky was covered with water" may indicate to you a reference to the sky all around the earth. But for me, the "sky" refers only to Noah's perspective, which referred only to the sky directly above him.

                Comment


                • Re: universal judgment at Christ's Coming

                  Originally posted by Slug1 View Post
                  Brother, when science is trusted over God's Word....

                  Have you watch that movie yet?
                  It's very difficult to argue with brothers when the issue becomes overly emotional, or simply accusatory. Nobody is placing Science over God's Word. It is *your interpretation* of God's Word that is being contested!

                  Science is a very good way of determining truth--not just God's Word. They are not in conflict with one another if the Science is done correctly and if the Word of God is being interpreted correctly.

                  Scripture is not a textbook on Science, though it is certainly not in conflict with Science done right. So we can't get scientific truth only from the Scriptures. We must *do* Science to *learn* Science.

                  For example, we can't go to the Bible to get the weather forecast. We have to turn to meteorologists to find that out, though for sure in some places the weather is clearly hard to determine in advance!

                  I assure you we agree on the authority of God's Word. The passage in Genesis does not demand a Universal Flood. If the context is Noah's region, the use of universal language applies only to his region.

                  Have you read any books by those who believe in God's Word and also believe in a Local Flood? Ramm's book, "The Christian View of Science and Scripture" is excellent in this regard, though quite old now. He was very familiar with both Science and Scripture, and clearly trusted in the authority of God's Word. And yet he saw no inconsistency in believing in a Local Flood.

                  Before you claim that one *must* believe in a Universal Flood in order to be a true "Bible Believer," I suggest you look at those who do claim to believe the Bible and yet interpret the Flood passage differently than you do? This may convince you that the problem is our *interpretation* of God's Word--not any supposed "lack of faith" in God's Word?

                  Comment


                  • Re: universal judgment at Christ's Coming

                    Originally Posted by randyk It's very difficult to argue with brothers when the issue becomes overly emotional, or simply accusatory. Nobody is placing Science over God's Word. It is *your interpretation* of God's Word that is being contested!

                    Science is a very good way of determining truth--not just God's Word. They are not in conflict with one another if the Science is done correctly and if the Word of God is being interpreted correctly.

                    Scripture is not a textbook on Science, though it is certainly not in conflict with Science done right. So we can't get scientific truth only from the Scriptures. We must *do* Science to *learn* Science.

                    For example, we can't go to the Bible to get the weather forecast. We have to turn to meteorologists to find that out, though for sure in some places the weather is clearly hard to determine in advance!

                    I assure you we agree on the authority of God's Word. The passage in Genesis does not demand a Universal Flood. If the context is Noah's region, the use of universal language applies only to his region.

                    Have you read any books by those who believe in God's Word and also believe in a Local Flood? Ramm's book, "The Christian View of Science and Scripture" is excellent in this regard, though quite old now. He was very familiar with both Science and Scripture, and clearly trusted in the authority of God's Word. And yet he saw no inconsistency in believing in a Local Flood.

                    Before you claim that one *must* believe in a Universal Flood in order to be a true "Bible Believer," I suggest you look at those who do claim to believe the Bible and yet interpret the Flood passage differently than you do? This may convince you that the problem is our *interpretation* of God's Word--not any supposed "lack of faith" in God's Word?
                    Not emotional at all brother, just making a point blank observation, when one uses science to counter scripture, that sad brother.

                    When it comes to the flood, read the scripture withOUT interpretation... view WHAT they say and what any scriptures that refer TO the flood, are saying.

                    The verses in Peter, say that the world/earth that forms from out of water, was COVERED by the same water.

                    Doesn't say a part of the earth was covered, it says that the earth/world that EXISTED, WAS covered by the water. To say a "part" of the earth/world was covered, is to apply interpretation.

                    There is no interpretation brother, there is no science... there is God's Word and what God says in support of His own Word.
                    Slug1--out

                    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

                    ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

                    ~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~


                    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~


                    Comment


                    • Re: universal judgment at Christ's Coming

                      Originally posted by randyk View Post
                      It is a logical argument, but not foolproof for me personally. It is a matter of what the author meant by this? In general, the earth had been submerged in its primordial state, and had emerged, via tectonic action, out of the water, creating land masses.

                      Gen 1.2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep... 9 And God said, “Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear.”

                      The land was resubmerged during the Flood of Noah. No question that the text indicates this. But whether this indicates the total land mass of the earth, or only a representative sample of land in the region of Noah I don't know if the text can determine this?

                      Did the earth resposition itself as a perfect sphere beneath the ocean, or did only land in the area of Noah become submerged, burying under water only all the land within Noah's region? The geological evidence seems to be in favor of the latter. We will have to come to grips with the science of geological dating for ourselves.

                      My understanding is that the purpose of resubmerging the earth was to undo the purpose for the emergence of the land to begin with. The land initially emerged as a home for both the animals and men. To resubmerge the land is to foil the purpose of giving man a place to live.

                      Clearly, the same earth God created as a home for Man was lost to the Flood. Whether this required a universal Flood or not is not clear to me. What is clear is what the text states, that what had once emerged out of the Sea would be resubmerged below the Sea, destroying Man's habitat in the region of Noah. I see nothing about the obliteration of all of the plants and fish? That would happen in a truly universal Flood!

                      Furthermore, the indication is of a Local Flood, though of gigantic proportions, because the Flood Waters were said to have drained. If they were to drain, they had to have somewhere to drain to!

                      Thanks for continuing to have interest in the subject. I will go where God's word leads me. But in this case, I'm not sure the text is at odds with science. I am interested in exactly what the text says, and though it does say what you say it says, I'm not sure it requires a Universal Flood?

                      We know Who designed the plants and fish . I suggest that the ability to survive a flood was built into the design of plants and fish ! Now more "local flood " questions .

                      What was the salinity of the oceans at the time of Noah's flood ? This might have a lot to do with why plants and fish made it through the flood .



                      If the flood was local where was it ? What area ? A map would be nice or do you have any idea what the land mass of the planet looked like ?

                      I have noticed in the book Genesis locations are spoken of , so if the flood was local why weren't we given some landmarks ?

                      Comment


                      • Re: universal judgment at Christ's Coming

                        Originally Posted by randyk

                        Furthermore, the indication is of a Local Flood, though of gigantic proportions, because the Flood Waters were said to have drained. If they were to drain, they had to have somewhere to drain to!



                        v 2 The fountains of the deep and the windows of heaven were also stopped, and the rain from heaven was restrained. 3 And the waters receded continually from the earth. At the end of the hundred and fifty days the waters decreased.

                        Here, God's Word answers your question

                        I want to help you see a problem with your argument here.

                        You said: because the Flood Waters were said to be drained. Well, drained where? Into other parts of the earth that weren't flooded? If this was the case, water need something HOLD it IN PLACE on a part of the earth for all that time and then, suddenly that something had to be removed for a draining to begin, into the other parts of the earth.

                        Flooding them

                        V2 refutes this... the waters came UP from the earth to flood it, and what pushed the water from inside the earth to the surface, was stopped. No more water pushing "UP" from inside the earth... so where naturally (or logically) does all the water on the surface return to... once God stopped the water from inside the earth from flooding the surface of the earth?
                        Slug1--out

                        ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

                        ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

                        ~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~


                        ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~


                        Comment

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