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Can a Saved man choose to be Lost?

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  • Re: Can a Saved man choose to be Lost?

    Originally posted by Slug1 View Post
    But... what has to be honestly faced, do those who do not come back, not come back because they can't because God didn't "choose them" or they just don't come back because, "they" choose to not come back to God?
    Originally posted by TrustGzus View Post
    Yes. What you are asking isn’t either/or as I see it. Both are true.
    Originally posted by Slug1 View Post
    How ?
    There is no contradiction between the two concepts. Part of it comes down to a definition of “free will”. I don’t think most Christians have a biblical view of free will, I think they have fallen pray to a secular philosophical view of it. People choose against God. They do so until God actively does a work in their heart. If God doesn’t act, they don’t choose him.

    So, that being the case....

    Do they not come to God because he didn’t choose them? Yes

    Do they not come to God because they choose not to? Yes

    Both are true.

    Most Christians think free will means one must have ability to choose two opposite paths to be free. I believe that is a secular understanding of free will, not a biblical one. It’s a failure of being aware of philosophy as Paul warned in Colossians 2:8.

    In essentials, unity; in non-essentials, liberty; in all things, charity. - Rupertus Meldenius

    Read your Bible and pray every single day. - Pastor Jon Courson

    If your grace ain't greasier than a bucket full of chitlin's and gravy, you might be a legalist - an internet friend.

    Comment


    • Re: Can a Saved man choose to be Lost?

      Originally posted by TrustGzus View Post
      There is no contradiction between the two concepts. Part of it comes down to a definition of “free will”. I don’t think most Christians have a biblical view of free will, I think they have fallen pray to a secular philosophical view of it. People choose against God. They do so until God actively does a work in their heart. If God doesn’t act, they don’t choose him.

      So, that being the case....

      Do they not come to God because he didn’t choose them? Yes

      Do they not come to God because they choose not to? Yes

      Both are true.

      Most Christians think free will means one must have ability to choose two opposite paths to be free. I believe that is a secular understanding of free will, not a biblical one. It’s a failure of being aware of philosophy as Paul warned in Colossians 2:8.
      NOW you are bringing Calvinism into the debate... A will to choose - as I believe the scripture shows - isn't that man can decide when and if he comes to the saving knowledge of God. It's that God reveals Himself supernaturally to that person, and in that opportunity that God provides - that person can accept or deny accepting the gift through faith and repentance.

      I have seen a LOT of people display the parable of the sower in real life and one would think that the more you see people walk away the more that one would lean toward sovereign predestined election as defined by John Calvin. But it hasn't had that effect with me. In fact it's been the opposite effect. I see people choosing to remain who they genuinely desire to be ( as you are in a roundabout way implying ). But the choice was still available and can be again. See the children of Israel.

      Comment


      • Re: Can a Saved man choose to be Lost?

        Originally posted by Pbminimum View Post
        NOW you are bringing Calvinism into the debate... A will to choose - as I believe the scripture shows - isn't that man can decide when and if he comes to the saving knowledge of God. It's that God reveals Himself supernaturally to that person, and in that opportunity that God provides - that person can accept or deny accepting the gift through faith and repentance.

        I have seen a LOT of people display the parable of the sower in real life and one would think that the more you see people walk away the more that one would lean toward sovereign predestined election as defined by John Calvin. But it hasn't had that effect with me. In fact it's been the opposite effect. I see people choosing to remain who they genuinely desire to be ( as you are in a roundabout way implying ). But the choice was still available and can be again. See the children of Israel.
        You and I have been trying very hard to keep the issues separate as we see some distinctions that can be made. In answering Slug’s questions inevitably you and I will answer some differently. Here’s one of those places. I want to answer Slug’s questions. I don’t want to go further down the path in the same thread if avoidable.

        Not that this thread has stayed on topic. The Prodigal Son is not about the security of the believer yet pages have been written on it in this thread.

        In essentials, unity; in non-essentials, liberty; in all things, charity. - Rupertus Meldenius

        Read your Bible and pray every single day. - Pastor Jon Courson

        If your grace ain't greasier than a bucket full of chitlin's and gravy, you might be a legalist - an internet friend.

        Comment


        • Re: Can a Saved man choose to be Lost?

          Originally posted by TrustGzus View Post
          You and I have been trying very hard to keep the issues separate as we see some distinctions that can be made. In answering Slug’s questions inevitably you and I will answer some differently. Here’s one of those places. I want to answer Slug’s questions. I don’t want to go further down the path in the same thread if avoidable.

          Not that this thread has stayed on topic. The Prodigal Son is not about the security of the believer yet pages have been written on it in this thread.
          Amen and you are correct. I don't necessarily have an issue with it coming into play in the thread though as it's certainly applicable to the conversation.

          Comment


          • Re: Can a Saved man choose to be Lost?

            Originally posted by Pbminimum View Post
            NOW you are bringing Calvinism into the debate... A will to choose - as I believe the scripture shows - isn't that man can decide when and if he comes to the saving knowledge of God. It's that God reveals Himself supernaturally to that person, and in that opportunity that God provides - that person can accept or deny accepting the gift through faith and repentance.

            I have seen a LOT of people display the parable of the sower in real life and one would think that the more you see people walk away the more that one would lean toward sovereign predestined election as defined by John Calvin. But it hasn't had that effect with me. In fact it's been the opposite effect. I see people choosing to remain who they genuinely desire to be ( as you are in a roundabout way implying ). But the choice was still available and can be again. See the children of Israel.
            Not wanting to change this in another C vs A debate but the following verse according to my understanding cannot be reconciled with your understanding of biblical free will.

            1Co 2:14* But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.*

            How can you accept or reject something you do not know? Luck or predestination?

            Also when did God reveal this to natural man to make the choice? (keep in mind the verse says He does not)

            Comment


            • Re: Can a Saved man choose to be Lost?

              Not wanting to change this in another C vs A debate but the following verse according to my understanding cannot be reconciled with your understanding of biblical free will.
              That's alright because I'm not Armenian.
              1Co 2:14* But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.*
              As God gives opportunity TO discern through the drawing, not the forcing.

              How can you accept or reject something you do not know? Luck or predestination?
              Revelation.

              Also when did God reveal this to natural man to make the choice? (keep in mind the verse says He does not)
              Through the revelation comes choice.

              Comment


              • Re: Can a Saved man choose to be Lost?

                Originally posted by Kalahari View Post
                Not wanting to change this in another C vs A debate but the following verse according to my understanding cannot be reconciled with your understanding of biblical free will.

                1Co 2:14* But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.*

                How can you accept or reject something you do not know? Luck or predestination?

                Also when did God reveal this to natural man to make the choice? (keep in mind the verse says He does not)
                So let’s not turn it into one. Cut-and-paste and start a different thread to explore free will if any desire to.

                In essentials, unity; in non-essentials, liberty; in all things, charity. - Rupertus Meldenius

                Read your Bible and pray every single day. - Pastor Jon Courson

                If your grace ain't greasier than a bucket full of chitlin's and gravy, you might be a legalist - an internet friend.

                Comment


                • Re: Can a Saved man choose to be Lost?

                  I just listened to a sermon from Carter Conlon called "The most difficult journey of all" on youtube and he expounds on the Prodigal Son in a way I think would interest all of you.

                  Comment


                  • Re: Can a Saved man choose to be Lost?

                    Originally posted by Slug1 View Post
                    Redemption begins the work of salvation and sanctification is the process in which salvation is working/changing you into Christ (glorified). Abide/endure to the end of this process and you are glorified (last phase of sanctification), salvation is reaped.
                    Thanks for clarifying, only I'd personally prefer "perfected" as the last of sanctification.

                    Comment


                    • Re: Can a Saved man choose to be Lost?

                      Originally posted by Christinme View Post
                      Ok … so salvation for you is "temporary status" depending on xyz ...
                      When we believe in Christ, we are saved. But we must remain/abide in Him till the end otherwise we lose our salvation.

                      Comment


                      • Re: Can a Saved man choose to be Lost?

                        Originally posted by Pbminimum View Post
                        Read the story. It's in there Triv.
                        I read the story but found nothing that is supported in scripture.

                        Comment


                        • Re: Can a Saved man choose to be Lost?

                          Originally posted by Christinme View Post
                          The first parable of the three parables that all come together … reminds me of where Jesus says this …

                          John 10:16 "I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd."

                          Especially since the tax collectors were for sure not Jewish and seems also that the sinners referred to at the beginning of the chapter were Gentile sinners …
                          The tax collectors referenced have to be Jews since Jesus didn't directly interact with Gentiles at the time.w

                          Comment


                          • Re: Can a Saved man choose to be Lost?

                            Originally posted by Christinme View Post
                            Slug in your example you are saying it is a person who continuously rejected Christ … obviously Hebrews 6 is not about someone who went to church but was asked if they believe in Jesus as their personal Lord/Savior and they said no …

                            Oh and that last part that randyk wrote that you quote above I don't believe what he writes here … but also your example is not what he was explaining … and I will edit my post above yours to make note of my disagreement on this …

                            Hebrews 6:4-6

                            4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,

                            5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,

                            6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.


                            I understand that if you have been enlightened and received the Holy Spirit … and you THEN reject Christ … it is impossible to renew you again … you can't again be reborn/born again/born from above … that is how I understand it …
                            We are only born again once. If a saved born again backslides and repents - he's not "born again" a second time - merely grafted back into the olive tree.

                            Comment


                            • Re: Can a Saved man choose to be Lost?

                              Originally posted by Kalahari View Post
                              Not wanting to change this in another C vs A debate but the following verse according to my understanding cannot be reconciled with your understanding of biblical free will.

                              1Co 2:14* But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.*

                              How can you accept or reject something you do not know? Luck or predestination?

                              Also when did God reveal this to natural man to make the choice? (keep in mind the verse says He does not)
                              The natural man refers to the unbelieving but the passage says nothing about him remaining forever in that state. So when repents and comes to faith and begins to live in the spirit then he will start to receive the things of the spirit.

                              Comment


                              • Re: Can a Saved man choose to be Lost?

                                Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
                                When we believe in Christ, we are saved. But we must remain/abide in Him till the end otherwise we lose our salvation.
                                Define “the end”.

                                In essentials, unity; in non-essentials, liberty; in all things, charity. - Rupertus Meldenius

                                Read your Bible and pray every single day. - Pastor Jon Courson

                                If your grace ain't greasier than a bucket full of chitlin's and gravy, you might be a legalist - an internet friend.

                                Comment

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