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  • Re: Can a Saved man choose to be Lost?

    Originally posted by Christinme View Post
    Tested enough ... are you sure ... so could someone think their faith was tested yet it really wasn't ... so there is no one who is going to be told "I never knew you" ???
    Originally posted by Christinme View Post
    As I wrote in the rep I gave you ... I am confused by this answer and not sure what applies to what ... if you could further explain what is relating to which of my questions I would appreciate it ...
    I thought you were saying in this post that we will be tested over and over again to see if we will endure. If you were tested and you endured (by the power of Christ for without Him we can do nothing), then why would you be tested over and over again? This was my thinking. Was I wrong in thinking this?

    Originally posted by Pbminimum View Post
    Are you an elect ?
    Yes .

    Comment


    • Re: Can a Saved man choose to be Lost?

      Originally posted by Kalahari View Post
      Yes .
      Then why do only recognize the elect in the scriptures referenced as the Jews ? Can't have it both ways.

      Comment


      • Re: Can a Saved man choose to be Lost?

        Originally posted by Pbminimum View Post
        Then why do only recognize the elect in the scriptures referenced as the Jews ? Can't have it both ways.
        I do not follow you here. Can you please explain more?

        Comment


        • Re: Can a Saved man choose to be Lost?

          Sure. The elect as referred to in 1 John 2 were not only the Jews but also the Gentiles grafted in. Keep in mind John was writing to the church. So, by taking that into account we know that he was speaking about those who have been saved... But yet he still makes a distinction between the elect and the world. He indicates that the blood of Christ was for the elect AND the non elect indicating the possibility that ALL may be saved. AKA THE WHOLE WORLD. There's no getting around this.

          Comment


          • Re: Can a Saved man choose to be Lost?

            Originally posted by hobie View Post
            Some believe that once you decide to be saved you can never choose to be lost again, it is irrevocable on your part. When you accept Jesus as your Saviour, it will be the final choice you will ever make about your eternal destiny. If you change your mind later and repudiate your decision, it will be too late, nothing can change it. No matter how deeply and sincerely you desire to be lost and repent of your repentance, you cannot escape from eternal life. No amount of bitter rebellion, deliberate blasphemy, or iniquitous living can change that once-for-all decision to be saved.

            Is this what the Bible teaches or could it be that maybe salvation is not predicated upon only one irrevocable act or choice of the past, but upon a continuous, personal relationship of the believer with Christ

            some think when you receive the Holy Ghost , your saved then and there and nothing can ever change it. As if receiving the Holy Ghost is the end and finality. Some think if you receive the Holy Spirit , and you sin , God no longer sees it.....the bible teaches us that when we receive the Holy Ghost, we are commanded to walk in the spirit unto salvation . If we don't there's a lot to rebuke us and cause repentance just one set of verses I can think of are probably the ones which hold a lot of fear that shows clearly receiving the Holy Ghost , is not salvation and one can be lost afterwards.


            is receiving the Holy Ghost a guarantee of salvation?

            “For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

            But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.”
            **Hebrews‬ *6:4-6, 8‬ *KJV‬‬


            clearly receiving the Holy Ghost , doesn't guarantee anyone salvation, they can still turn away and be lost , depending on the fruit they produce. More on this

            For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

            Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?”
            **Hebrews‬ *10:26-29‬ *KJV‬‬


            it's about receiving the Holy Spirit....and following where he leads us, through the word of God. We don't receive the Holy Ghost and then lose our ability to choose the spirit or the flesh....receiving the Holy Spirit is what gives us the spirit to follow and out the flesh deeds to death....in other words the power to repent of sin, and follow the Holy Spirit ....who will always remind us of the word of God. But we have to follow after salvation. If we believe the word of God , we will follow after salvation , it's the principle of true faith.

            we have the above warnings about falling away and continuing on in willful sin after receiving the Holy Ghost, clearly these people aren't saved , but lost. Then afterwards we always have instruction to avoid the warnings, and much encouragement to stand strong and hope in salvation

            “Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward. For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise. For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry. Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.”
            **Hebrews‬ *10:35-39‬ *KJV‬‬


            in truth , no one is yet saved , even our refused to judge himself because there's only one judge who decides who's saved and who's lost, we are blessed because we have his own words for salvation.


            we're never lost , were never saved until we are. And no one but Christ makes thatn decision. And ....he will

            “But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self.

            For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord. Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.”
            **1 Corinthians‬ *4:3-5‬ *KJV‬‬


            we don't get to decide who's saved and who's lost, we don't know the hidden things by which men are judged, we don't know what's in a mans heart....Jesus does though. A person can appear godly , and in secret they can serve the devil...one can appear as lost to a Christians observation ....but in truth they may be one of the most godly people we know. Who's been through things we can't imagine....God knows every detail, every motivation, every deed, every thought everything in us the things we hide from everyone ....Godmis the judge because he knows the truth of men that cannot be observed by man.

            “For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's. For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living. But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother?

            for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.”
            **Romans‬ *14:8-12‬ *KJV‬‬

            See , there is a day in which each of us will appear before Jesus Christ, and it is then when salvation will be manifest to those who wait for him. As much as we want to debate things about who's gonna be saved ...who's not....we can only ever make conjecture about it. We can know how one is saved , we can no what leads men to salvation, we can know the things that disqualify from salvation.....but we cannot apply this to anyone but ourselves.....it's meant to be that way , were meant to look at our own lives with jidgement , and work our own repentance in Christ....and while we're doing it were meant to share the word , grow in the word, seek after salvation as if ....we actually believe this is a matter of eternal life , or eternal damnation...

            most treat the gospel and Gods word as an afterthought, after all thier wants and needs are met , they might seek God for a minute.....but again in scripture we are told of an all encompassing , all important life and death struggle , amplified eternally above life and death in this world, here were talking about 90 years or so if we're blessed...but the bible subject matter is about either eternal life in Gods presence, eternal peace and happiness, a perfect world without death and sorrow ....forever and ever....or eternal torment and damnation in the lake of,fire where no one actually ceases to exist , but rather exist in death, in torment along side Satan and his angels and servants...


            we should take it serious as it is

            Comment


            • Re: Can a Saved man choose to be Lost?

              See this concept in Hebrews


              “For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:

              But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.”
              **Hebrews‬ *6:7-8‬ *KJV‬‬

              this is not a new concept foreign to the gospel , it's a teaching ofmjesus Christ directly from the gospel , it's about those who receive Christ , but thier fruit is bad.



              “I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away:

              and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

              Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

              I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

              If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.”
              **John‬ *15:1-6‬ *KJV‬‬


              The gospel has been sent forth to all people on earth , some will receive it and abide in Christ, keeping his words , following him as lord they will bear the fruit of the spirit as they grow and drink of the rain God has sent upon the earth. They may stumble, they may fall sometimes, they may struggle , they may fall into sin even and repent many times .....but they will abide in his doctrine because they believe it and Gods word when we abide , through patience will produce the fruits of repentance.


              others when they begin seeing the things they need to repent of , and the things Jesus teaches us to do in life.....they may say Believe and receive the Holy Ghost, but then they will suppress and ignore the word of God , not abiding in his doctrine ....thier fruit will remain the fruit of the world the deeds of the flesh ....and they will not be saved by thier fruits we shall know them.

              salvation comes when Jesus returns , receiving the gospel now is the path for salvation, repenting learning , believing and following where faith leads. We can't afford to reject the messiahs words ......it is our jidgement to do so because what Jesus said , is the word of God for eternal,life ....

              “He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.”
              **John‬ *12:48-50‬ *KJV‬‬


              the great thing is that his word is wonderful and not what it seems in the beginning, it truly is a yoke that is easy, and burden which is light

              Comment


              • Re: Can a Saved man choose to be Lost?

                Originally posted by Pbminimum View Post
                Sure. The elect as referred to in 1 John 2 were not only the Jews but also the Gentiles grafted in. Keep in mind John was writing to the church. So, by taking that into account we know that he was speaking about those who have been saved... But yet he still makes a distinction between the elect and the world. He indicates that the blood of Christ was for the elect AND the non elect indicating the possibility that ALL may be saved. AKA THE WHOLE WORLD. There's no getting around this.
                And when you go into the Greek concerning John 3:16, the terms reflect "all individuals" in the world, not "some" individuals in the world.
                --
                Slug1--out

                ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~

                Comment


                • Re: Can a Saved man choose to be Lost?

                  Originally posted by Pbminimum View Post
                  Sure. The elect as referred to in 1 John 2 were not only the Jews but also the Gentiles grafted in. Keep in mind John was writing to the church. So, by taking that into account we know that he was speaking about those who have been saved... But yet he still makes a distinction between the elect and the world. He indicates that the blood of Christ was for the elect AND the non elect indicating the possibility that ALL may be saved. AKA THE WHOLE WORLD. There's no getting around this.
                  Yes the letter was written to the church, but a Gentile church or a Jewish church? Would a Gentile church knew about Cain and Abel? Was the Gentiles called the children of God or the Jews? If this was written to Jewish believers, who look very possible if you look at chapter 3, then the us is Jews and the world Gentiles in 1 Joh 2:2. So then the elect are from the Jews (us) and the Gentiles (world). i do not agree with you that the distinction is between the elect and the world, but between the Jews and the Gentiles. Then the blood of Jesus is for the elect from among the Jews and the Gentiles. Straight forward actually if read with the right context.

                  Comment


                  • Re: Can a Saved man choose to be Lost?

                    Yes the letter was written to the church, but a Gentile church or a Jewish church?
                    This is a stretch.

                    Would a Gentile church knew about Cain and Abel? Was the Gentiles called the children of God or the Jews? If this was written to Jewish believers, who look very possible if you look at chapter 3, then the us is Jews and the world Gentiles in 1 Joh 2:2. So then the elect are from the Jews (us) and the Gentiles (world). i do not agree with you that the distinction is between the elect and the world, but between the Jews and the Gentiles. Then the blood of Jesus is for the elect from among the Jews and the Gentiles. Straight forward actually if read with the right context.
                    And this explanation you are offering is based off of it being a JEWISH CHURCH instead of elected believers.

                    Comment


                    • Re: Can a Saved man choose to be Lost?

                      Originally posted by Pbminimum View Post
                      This is a stretch.



                      And this explanation you are offering is based off of it being a JEWISH CHURCH instead of elected believers.
                      Yes this makes a lot more sense and is also compatible with the rest of Scripture than making the difference between elect and world. The us in v2 is Jewish believers. i have no doubt about it.

                      Comment


                      • Re: Can a Saved man choose to be Lost?

                        Originally posted by Slug1 View Post
                        And when you go into the Greek concerning John 3:16, the terms reflect "all individuals" in the world, not "some" individuals in the world.
                        The election is in the whosoever, not of the world. Those elected are from the whole world, but the whole world are not elected.

                        Comment


                        • Re: Can a Saved man choose to be Lost?

                          Originally posted by Kalahari View Post
                          The election is in the whosoever, not of the world. Those elected are from the whole world, but the whole world are not elected.
                          Yes, when you go into the Greek, it's all about each individual in the world. "Whosoever" is about all individuals in the world, not "some" individuals in the world.
                          --
                          Slug1--out

                          ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~

                          Comment


                          • Re: Can a Saved man choose to be Lost?

                            Originally posted by Deade View Post
                            When I said the above yesterday, I just presented both sides of the OSAS/NOSAS argument. You tell me: Is one right and the other wrong? You decide. If you think you know where you stand on the OSAS or NOSAS argument, that post just might put you on the fence with me. I balance on the top of the fence leaning one way and then the other. I think I will just stay here until I get rid of this "glass darkly."

                            Ya know the OSAS/NOSAS debate is kind of like one for predestination and free-choice. The best place to be in on the fence. I agree with both sides of that argument also. My guess, some things are not supposed to get settled in this lifetime.
                            I understand! I'm Predestinarian, but I have to admit--Freewill and Predeterminism are opposites. Somehow Predestination has to include Freewill. My view wavers. Sometimes I think that God just chose a number, and planned for so many, and people have to prove themselves to fit in. But more often, I think that God chose a number of us, in advance, and the rest have Freewill, but are relegated to the influence of Satan, who God knows will win them over. After all, many of the things we do in life have terrible and real consequences with our descendants and with our associates and with our neighbors. Somehow those negative consequences are determined. Otherwise, God could never say that anybody will be damned. If they truly have Freechoice without Predeterminism, then theoretically, all could be saved, right? But God did, in fact, predict an outcome in which many would be lost.

                            Comment


                            • Re: Can a Saved man choose to be Lost?

                              Originally posted by randyk View Post
                              I understand! I'm Predestinarian, but I have to admit--Freewill and Predeterminism are opposites. Somehow Predestination has to include Freewill. My view wavers. Sometimes I think that God just chose a number, and planned for so many, and people have to prove themselves to fit in. But more often, I think that God chose a number of us, in advance, and the rest have Freewill, but are relegated to the influence of Satan, who God knows will win them over. After all, many of the things we do in life have terrible and real consequences with our descendants and with our associates and with our neighbors. Somehow those negative consequences are determined. Otherwise, God could never say that anybody will be damned. If they truly have Freechoice without Predeterminism, then theoretically, all could be saved, right? But God did, in fact, predict an outcome in which many would be lost.
                              Simply this... choice and predestination: God desires none are lost (that all are saved), so we all have the choice to believe unto Christ or to chose to not believe unto Christ. God knows the choice that all of mankind will make. For those who will choose to believe, predestined for works of righteousness to give God the glory. For those who will choose to not believe, predestined for works of unrighteousness to give God the glory. So how does freewill continue to work in all this, ONCE a person chooses to believe, their freewill becomes a choice to BE obedient to God's will for them or to NOT be obedient to God's will for them.
                              --
                              Slug1--out

                              ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~

                              Comment


                              • Re: Can a Saved man choose to be Lost?

                                Originally posted by randyk View Post
                                I understand! I'm Predestinarian, but I have to admit--Freewill and Predeterminism are opposites. Somehow Predestination has to include Freewill. My view wavers. Sometimes I think that God just chose a number, and planned for so many, and people have to prove themselves to fit in. But more often, I think that God chose a number of us, in advance, and the rest have Freewill, but are relegated to the influence of Satan, who God knows will win them over. After all, many of the things we do in life have terrible and real consequences with our descendants and with our associates and with our neighbors. Somehow those negative consequences are determined. Otherwise, God could never say that anybody will be damned. If they truly have Freechoice without Predeterminism, then theoretically, all could be saved, right? But God did, in fact, predict an outcome in which many would be lost.
                                Could we rather then say maybe God isn't done with those "lost" ones yet. I prefer to think it that way.
                                John 15:17 "These things I command you, that ye love one another."

                                Comment

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