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  • #76
    Re: counterfeit miracles

    Originally posted by Slug1 View Post
    Joe, should I was to speak in tongues, what would that do to your assessments posted in this post of yours?

    Here is why I ask:

    Pretty much ALL of the saints in Corinth were acting the devil before Paul was able to disciple them properly, in the order of use of the gifts. But... they constantly manifested the gifts in their chaotic and sinful lifestyles prior to this corrective discipleship

    What makes "them" any different than any saint today acting just like "they" did back in Paul's days, prior to his corrective lessons? I can answer this in only one way... many saints today who are manifesting gifts, NEED discipleship just as the saints in Corinth did back then.

    To say, the gifts have ended, isn't gonna help them WHEN, JUST LIKE BACK THEN, it is the Holy Spirit providing the empowerment. That is why today, when a person in a church that holds to cessationism begins to speak in tongues, they are persecuted and pretty much in my experience, ALL are booted from such a church. Even when it was the pastor whom God used to show such a church that gifts continue today... the church banded together and fired the pastor.
    Yes, my 1st charismatic pastor was previously a Lutheran pastor who was booted out of his denomination for speaking in tongues and teaching speaking in tongues. This runs exactly opposite to Paul's teaching, who encouraged the use of tongues and did not want us to forbid the use of tongues and prophecy.

    This pastor--a dear elder brother of mine--passed away now. But by faith his little church, exiled from the Lutheran denomination, began again with the smallest of churches, meeting in a former Flower Shop.

    Today, that church is a multi-million dollar structure on acreage with a large attendance. His son took over as pastor, and is now retired.

    I think that indicates God favored the pastor's decision to go charismatic, whereas He did not favor those who booted him out. Lutheran churches are generally in poor attendance today in our area. One appears to be going out of business! I do have a friend who is a Lutheran pastor back East (in the US), and he is doing fine, and is also charismatic.

    Comment


    • #77
      Re: counterfeit miracles


      Originally Posted by Brother Mark

      I think there are a few of us that have changed our minds on things since being here. If we aren't changing our belief system in some way, then we are stagnant and not growing in the Lord.

      Overall, I enjoyed this post. There are some things I would like applaud, and some things I would like to challenge, gently of course.



      I think Acts 1 tells us what the evidence of the Baptism (or filling... the Holy Spirit used both words to describe the same event) of the Holy Spirit is.

      Acts 1:8 but you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth."

      We have power when we are filled. Power over sin. Power to overcome. And all this enables us to be powerful witnesses for Him. It is my belief that some can speak in tongues, as they are empowered in that gifting when baptized/filled with the Holy Spirit. But a teacher, will teach with more power. An evangelist, will evangelize with more power. Why? Because when we are filled, we have more power over sin, and our life and words become more Christlike which makes for a more powerful witness.

      I will most likely quote other parts later in responses. In relation to your post here, in classes I've raised Luke 4.

      1 And Jesus, full of the Holy Spirit, returned from the Jordan and was led by the Spirit in the wilderness 2 for forty days, being tempted by the devil. And he ate nothing during those days. And when they were ended, he was hungry.

      v14 And Jesus returned in the power of the Spirit to Galilee, and a report about him went out through all the surrounding country. 15 And he taught in their synagogues, being glorified by all.


      Scripture seems careful to point out a difference in fullness of the Holy Spirit and being in the "power" of the Holy Spirit. So yes, agree with you 100%. Soon as a person believes unto Christ and the Holy Spirit fills them up to the "top," this is the ONE baptism... justification/redemption. During the sanctification process (which can be immediately at times), the Holy Spirit can then manifest in power and is commonly known as the Baptism of the Holy Spirit and miraculous manifestations (supernatural power of God), happens. Based many scriptures I previously posted, speaking in tongues is the MOST common. Moving in this power is evident in all your examples of an "anointed" ministry when a person is led in ways unexplainable... unless one submits to the fact, the person is operating in the power of the Holy Spirit. Yes, BOLDNESS can be unexplained, when a meek person is suddenly on fire and Kingdom work is being accomplished.
      --
      Slug1--out

      ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~

      ~John 6:62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before?~ (Jesus is Eternal - existed before becoming a man)

      Comment


      • #78
        Re: counterfeit miracles

        Originally posted by randyk View Post
        Yes, my 1st charismatic pastor was previously a Lutheran pastor who was booted out of his denomination for speaking in tongues and teaching speaking in tongues. This runs exactly opposite to Paul's teaching, who encouraged the use of tongues and did not want us to forbid the use of tongues and prophecy.

        This pastor--a dear elder brother of mine--passed away now. But by faith his little church, exiled from the Lutheran denomination, began again with the smallest of churches, meeting in a former Flower Shop.

        Today, that church is a multi-million dollar structure on acreage with a large attendance. His son took over as pastor, and is now retired.

        I think that indicates God favored the pastor's decision to go charismatic, whereas He did not favor those who booted him out. Lutheran churches are generally in poor attendance today in our area. One appears to be going out of business! I do have a friend who is a Lutheran pastor back East (in the US), and he is doing fine, and is also charismatic.
        Sad and very awesome at the same time.

        God's way only. 1 Cor 12-14 give us how God wants gifts to be in order. Man however, wanting to be in control does the two extremes... abuses the gifts in various ways (one box) or does the opposite, suppresses the gifts by saying they don't happen anymore (the other box).

        Outside the boxes, God is providing His gifts and they are in order and He is being glorified and this is evident.
        --
        Slug1--out

        ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~

        ~John 6:62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before?~ (Jesus is Eternal - existed before becoming a man)

        Comment


        • #79
          Re: counterfeit miracles

          Originally posted by Slug1 View Post
          Sad and very awesome at the same time.

          God's way only. 1 Cor 12-14 give us how God wants gifts to be in order. Man however, wanting to be in control does the two extremes... abuses the gifts in various ways (one box) or does the opposite, suppresses the gifts by saying they don't happen anymore (the other box).

          Outside the boxes, God is providing His gifts and they are in order and He is being glorified and this is evident.
          Amen. That's in the Bible, and I think we all want God to operate in and through us supernaturally. Our God is, by definition, supernatural. He should show Himself in a spiritual way, and if He uses us at all it should be through supernatural manifestations.

          Comment


          • #80
            Re: counterfeit miracles

            Originally posted by randyk View Post
            Yes, my 1st charismatic pastor was previously a Lutheran pastor who was booted out of his denomination for speaking in tongues and teaching speaking in tongues. This runs exactly opposite to Paul's teaching, who encouraged the use of tongues and did not want us to forbid the use of tongues and prophecy.

            This pastor--a dear elder brother of mine--passed away now. But by faith his little church, exiled from the Lutheran denomination, began again with the smallest of churches, meeting in a former Flower Shop.

            Today, that church is a multi-million dollar structure on acreage with a large attendance. His son took over as pastor, and is now retired.

            I think that indicates God favored the pastor's decision to go charismatic, whereas He did not favor those who booted him out. Lutheran churches are generally in poor attendance today in our area. One appears to be going out of business! I do have a friend who is a Lutheran pastor back East (in the US), and he is doing fine, and is also charismatic.
            Itís obvious that church size, growth and diminishment has nothing to do with having a continuationist or cessationist theology. Both groups have giant churches, small churches and churches going ďout of business.Ē Heretics have churches with tens of thousands.

            In essentials, unity; in non-essentials, liberty; in all things, charity. - Rupertus Meldenius

            Read your Bible and pray every single day. - Pastor Jon Courson

            If your grace ain't greasier than a bucket full of chitlin's and gravy, you might be a legalist - an internet friend.

            Comment


            • #81
              Re: counterfeit miracles

              Originally posted by TrustGzus View Post
              It’s obvious that church size, growth and diminishment has nothing to do with having a continuationist or cessationist theology. Both groups have giant churches, small churches and churches going “out of business.” Heretics have churches with tens of thousands.
              AMEN! Church size should never be used as an indication of God's favor or pleasure. Noah preached for 120 years and only 8 people were saved. We find him in the hall of faith in Hebrews 11. Jonah preached for a few days and the greatest revival in the OT occurred. Yet, he was not mentioned in Hebrews 11 and God was not pleased with him.

              God's mercy is such that he will use even a donkey, or the world, to preach His word. Egypt (I think) rebuked both Abraham and Isaac when they lied about their wives.

              Anyway, brother, you preached some absolutely necessary truth right there.
              Matt 9:13
              13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
              NASU

              Comment


              • #82
                Re: counterfeit miracles

                Originally posted by BCHYH View Post
                The revelatory gifts of tongues, prophesy, and word of knowledge all ceased when the New Testament was completed in the first century. The Bible bears this out:
                Garbage. Garbage. Garbage.

                Comment


                • #83
                  Re: counterfeit miracles

                  Originally posted by TrustGzus View Post
                  Another thing began to bother me biblically. Paulís comments on the gifts begin with a lengthy discussion of an analogy with the human body. Our physical bodies are made of many parts. No parts serve themselves. Each part is there to serve the entirety of the human body.

                  Then Paul talks about love. Love is not self-seeking. Love is others centered - like our body parts.

                  Modern day tongues are heavily emphasized as a private prayer language. This is completely counter to Paulís guidelines for gift use. I believe any attempt to take Paulís words on tongues as a private gift are a mistaken interpretation. Thatís why tongues must be interpreted. Itís for the body, not the individual.
                  I'm trying to understand your objection here as you challenged. Are you suggesting that prayer along the guidelines Jesus instructed (as in private prayer) is a wholly selfish activity? The Apostle Paul says: 1 Timothy 2:1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; So we know prayer isn't only about our needs. It would seem any kind of out loud prayer in private would fail your test. Also, a gift of faith would seem to be a gift that is not "shared" with the body, but still good for the body.

                  Your dogmatic exclusion seems a little to me to be: 1 Corinthians 12:1 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you. Cessasionism categorizes all the Spiritual gifts as external to the body of Christ.

                  1 Corinthians 14:28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.


                  What does the Apostle Paul mean by the above? That the tongue is counterfeit and shouldn't be indulged? Or that the tongue should be kept private to one's self?
                  Watchinginawe

                  I Samuel 3:10 And the LORD came, and stood, and called as at other times, Samuel, Samuel. Then Samuel answered, Speak; for thy servant heareth.

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Re: counterfeit miracles

                    Originally posted by TrustGzus View Post
                    Itís obvious that church size, growth and diminishment has nothing to do with having a continuationist or cessationist theology. Both groups have giant churches, small churches and churches going ďout of business.Ē Heretics have churches with tens of thousands.
                    I'm aware of that. However, it is self-evident when it is *God* who is blessing something that indicates His approval. Other things that God "blesses" are blessed simply because people put in the work, and not necessarily because it actually pleases God. A good functioning country can really grow in population, with good productivity, jobs, etc. They are just "playing by God's rules." But there is another kind of "blessing" in which God honors what people do *for Him." Read the blessings and curses of the Law.

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Re: counterfeit miracles

                      Originally posted by TrustGzus View Post
                      I went to a very charismatic Bible college in 1991. Everyone spoke in tongues. I literally mean everyone - except me.
                      So thus the eisegesis of the passages related to tongues. Thereís nothing in the Scriptures to support your position that strengthening and edifying myself spiritually makes me love others less.
                      Some people don't mind contradicting themselves as long as they can keep disagreeing with you...

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Re: counterfeit miracles

                        Originally posted by watchinginawe View Post
                        1 Corinthians 14:28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.


                        What does the Apostle Paul mean by the above? >snip<Or that the tongue should be kept private to one's self?
                        It is strange how all who do speak in tongues, when they (the some) are abusing the gift as the Corinthians did, speaking loud and no interpretation... those who I correct with this verse, are convicted when I explain the lesson Paul is inspired to teach. It's like suddenly what the Holy Spirit inspired in the lesson, "affects" them. Literally, a light bulb going off and on their own, study the lesson and no more chaotic use of tongues.

                        Yet, for some, this verse is the one that is ignored by those who are against speaking in tongues. When this verse is literally the key concerning how "tongues" leads to edification for the one speaking only to God... WHEN SPEAKING is done the WAY the lesson teaches.
                        --
                        Slug1--out

                        ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~

                        ~John 6:62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before?~ (Jesus is Eternal - existed before becoming a man)

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Re: counterfeit miracles

                          Anything/everything that is valuable will be counterfeited.
                          Not just by the devil and his demons but by evil men also.
                          Don't seek too much knowledge. You just may be putting more weight on your shoulders than you're able to bare.
                          Let God be the one to decide how quickly you grow

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            Re: counterfeit miracles

                            Originally Posted by Jacob's Ladder

                            Anything/everything that is valuable will be counterfeited.
                            Not just by the devil and his demons but by evil men also.

                            Amen. Discernment is always in need to determine when something is God's Spirit (true miracle), a demonic spirit (imitated), or just the spirit of man (faked).
                            --
                            Slug1--out

                            ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~

                            ~John 6:62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before?~ (Jesus is Eternal - existed before becoming a man)

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              Re: counterfeit miracles

                              Originally posted by Slug1 View Post
                              Amen. Discernment is always in need to determine when something is God's Spirit (true miracle), a demonic spirit (imitated), or just the spirit of man (faked).
                              Yes … discernment … what is most needed ALWAYS ...
                              ***
                              Lead me in Your truth and teach me,
                              For You are the God of my salvation;
                              On You I wait all the day.

                              Psalms 25:5
                              ***

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Re: counterfeit miracles

                                Originally posted by Jacob's Ladder View Post
                                Anything/everything that is valuable will be counterfeited.
                                Not just by the devil and his demons but by evil men also.
                                Yes, one of Satan's most-used strategies, to create so much confusion over an issue that people, in desperation, pursue a different, or compromising course.

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