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How necessary Baptism?

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  • Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Originally posted by Follower1977 View Post
    no brother ....no. Johns baptism is the same baptism based on Jesus Christ , the o key difference is his name was declared after his death. The thief on the cross was baptized for the remission of sins ...<<<<<<< that is what is needed , after his resurrection he gave the command to baptize in his name , the purpose remains the same , it's for remission of sins see acts 2:38 ....Jesus name , the thief on the cross inderstood who Jesus was , like any other Christian , he was baptized in water for the remission of sins , and took upon him the name of Jesus Christ ...


    see , I know you will understand this one point " the only thing that remits sin is this

    “For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.”
    **Matthew‬ *26:28‬ *KJV‬‬


    John the Baptist , was part ofmjesus ministry always the prophets foretold him, Jesus explained this , John was also preaching Jesus beforehand bro...remember he kept saying one will come after me ..he will baptize you with the Holy Ghost"

    John preached repentance and remission of sin, baptizing them in water for remission. He wasn't preaching Jesus name , because it had not been declared ...but he did point Jesus out and tell everyone this is the guy right here , this is the Christ I've been preaching to you.


    the thief , fills both water requirement for remission, and faith through believing in Jesus Christ the son of God. It's about the purpose of baptism , whether before the cross baptism for the remission of sin or after for the remission of sin. Those who were baptized of John, couldn't receive the Holy Spirit , that's the only difference , it goes to show again . One must be born of water and spirit.

    one must be baptized into the death of Jesus Christ for remission of sins by water and one must receive the Holy Spirit through faith in hearing the gospel and believing. It doesn't matter if we get baptized first and then receive the Holy Ghost , or receive the Holy Ghost first and then get baptized for remission of sin. It happens both ways more than once, to both gentile and Jew. But always water baptism for the remission of sins , is present and receiving the Holy Ghost through faith is present . There's no occasion where a person receives the Holy Ghost and is taught baptism isn't necessary...both re always present .

    It's sort of like saying anyone who died before Jesus was crucified , thier sins weren't remitted because they were baptized for the remission of sins ...by John the Baptist , sent as the one to prepare the people through the remission of sins ....for the messiah ..( see johns bitprth and the prophecies spoken over him by the Angel Gabriel , and his father ....see Malachi 3-4 and the prophecies in Isaiah concerning the voice crying in the desert....


    johns baptism , Jesus name . The thief was born of water and spirit...
    OK brother. We'll just have differ on this one. Here's a short summary of what I see
    • John did not Baptize in anybody's name
    • John Baptized only Israelites (Act.13:24)
    • John's Baptism was ineffectual for the receiving of the Holy Spirit (Act.19:1-7)
    • John Baptized in water but Jesus did not (Jn.4:2)
    • Only Baptism in Jesus's Name will allow the Baptism of the Holy Spirit (Act.2:38)
    • John declares Jesus but Jesus Baptizes with the Holy Spirit. John is only a prophet, Jesus is the SOURCE
    • In EVERY CASE of Baptism AFTER the resurrection the believer is Baptized ONLY in Jesus's Name (Acts 2:38, 8:12, 16, 10:48, 19:5, 22:16)

    John wasn't even a believer. Scripture makes him the greatest man ever, but only one "born of a woman" - Not born of the Holy Spirit (Matt.11:11; LK.7:28). The "least" in Christ's Kingdom is greater than John Baptist. To be in the Kingdom means you must have been born of the Spirit (Jn.3:3). So John remained unregenerate. This is again seen when he sends his disciples to ask if Jesus was the Messiah. Not only did he not believe that Jesus was Messiah, but what was He doing with his OWN disciples? Should he not have been a disciple of Jesus Himself?

    Comment


    • Re: How necessary Baptism?

      Originally posted by Follower1977 View Post
      how is it not brother mark?

      And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
      **Mark‬ *16:15-16‬ *KJV‬‬


      Am I mistaken on the meaning of the word salvific?
      As has been pointed out already in the thread, Jesus shows the salvific part when he says "but he that believeth not, shall be damned". That is not the case with baptism.

      In Jesus own words:

      Luke 18:13 "But the tax collector, standing some distance away, was even unwilling to lift up his eyes to heaven, but was beating his breast, saying, 'God, be merciful to me, the sinner!' 14 "I tell you, this man went to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted."

      No baptism mentioned, yet this man went home justified. He went home saved from the wrath of God. There are other examples in scripture, some have already been mentioned in this thread.

      God bless!
      Matt 9:13
      13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
      NASU

      Comment


      • Re: How necessary Baptism?

        Originally posted by Walls View Post
        [LIST=1]There is no way that the criminal crucified next to our Lord Jesus could have been Baptized. Even if John's Baptism was valid, is it likely that a man so lawless as to receive the death penalty, would have obeyed John? Why, just minutes before his conversion he was also mocking Jesus.

        "The thieves (plural) also, which were crucified with him, cast the same in his teeth" (Matthew 27:44)
        Good point! I've heard others who teach that water baptism is absolutely necessary for salvation try to make the argument that thief may have previously been converted and was water baptized, yet the fruit of that is being crucified as a thief? - (highly unlikely) In Matthew 27:39-43, we see that those who passed by, along with the chief priests scribes and elders blasphemed, mocked and shook their heads at Jesus and EVEN THE ROBBERS WHO WERE CRUCIFIED WITH HIM REVILED HIM WITH THE SAME THING. More fruit? I certainly don't see being crucified as a thief, blaspheming, mocking and shaking your head at Jesus as being the fruit of repentance/faith. Yet, moments later, we see that the thief had a "change of mind" (repentance) placed his faith in Christ for salvation and was saved (Luke 23:40-43). Of course, he died before having the opportunity to be water baptized.
        Galatians 6:14 - But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.

        Comment


        • Re: How necessary Baptism?

          Originally posted by Walls View Post
          We must have different Bibles then. This is what our Lord said. See if you can spot the word "saved", or if it is an addition by you.

          "And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise" (Luke 23:43)
          You don't get to Paradise without being saved.

          Originally posted by Walls View Post
          Perish the day I use the Catholic doctrine for anything. I was a practicing Roman Catholic for 28 years, and would not touch anything of their's again - especially their doctrine.
          And yet, on baptism, you're even more extreme than the Roman Catholics are. They at least accept that some people can be saved without physical water baptism.

          Comment


          • Re: How necessary Baptism?

            Originally posted by Walls View Post
            John Baptized in water but Jesus did not (Jn.4:2)
            Jesus's disciples baptised (John 4:2).

            Originally posted by Walls View Post
            John wasn't even a believer. ... Not born of the Holy Spirit
            Say what? John was filled with the Holy Spirit, even from his mother's womb (Luke 1:15). He recognised Jesus before he was even born (Luke 1:41).

            Originally posted by Walls View Post
            This is again seen when he sends his disciples to ask if Jesus was the Messiah. Not only did he not believe that Jesus was Messiah, but what was He doing with his OWN disciples? Should he not have been a disciple of Jesus Himself?
            He was in prison at the time (Matthew 11:2).

            Comment


            • Re: How necessary Baptism?

              So let's open up a can of worms ... what if you were baptised as an infant ... even some Protestant churches do this such as the Lutheran Church ...
              ***
              Lead me in Your truth and teach me,
              For You are the God of my salvation;
              On You I wait all the day.

              Psalms 25:5
              ***

              Comment


              • Re: How necessary Baptism?

                Originally posted by Christinme View Post
                So let's open up a can of worms ... what if you were baptised as an infant ... even some Protestant churches do this such as the Lutheran Church ...
                Most Protestant churches baptise infants of believers, actually. But there is some debate among Protestants as to what baptism actually does.

                Comment


                • Re: How necessary Baptism?

                  Originally posted by Radagast View Post
                  Most Protestant churches baptise infants of believers, actually. But there is some debate among Protestants as to what baptism actually does.
                  I don't think most do ... many who do do it actually call it a dedication service ...
                  ***
                  Lead me in Your truth and teach me,
                  For You are the God of my salvation;
                  On You I wait all the day.

                  Psalms 25:5
                  ***

                  Comment


                  • Re: How necessary Baptism?

                    My point is then ... if such baptism happened as a child would one need to be rebaptised?
                    ***
                    Lead me in Your truth and teach me,
                    For You are the God of my salvation;
                    On You I wait all the day.

                    Psalms 25:5
                    ***

                    Comment


                    • Re: How necessary Baptism?

                      Originally posted by Christinme View Post
                      My point is then ... if such baptism happened as a child would one need to be rebaptised?
                      Scriptural baptism happens after new life in Christ and after a genuine profession of faith.

                      Comment


                      • Re: How necessary Baptism?

                        Originally posted by Pbminimum View Post
                        Scriptural baptism happens after new life in Christ and after a genuine profession of faith.
                        Scriptural baptism is a covenant baptism for believers.

                        Comment


                        • Re: How necessary Baptism?

                          Originally posted by Pbminimum View Post
                          Scriptural baptism happens after new life in Christ and after a genuine profession of faith.
                          Are you so sure ... how about scripture where their whole household was baptised ... were there no children there???
                          ***
                          Lead me in Your truth and teach me,
                          For You are the God of my salvation;
                          On You I wait all the day.

                          Psalms 25:5
                          ***

                          Comment


                          • Re: How necessary Baptism?

                            Originally posted by Christinme View Post
                            My point is then ... if such baptism happened as a child would one need to be rebaptised?
                            Were you born more than once?

                            Comment


                            • Re: How necessary Baptism?

                              Originally posted by Kalahari View Post
                              Scriptural baptism is a covenant baptism for believers.
                              So is for infants also???
                              ***
                              Lead me in Your truth and teach me,
                              For You are the God of my salvation;
                              On You I wait all the day.

                              Psalms 25:5
                              ***

                              Comment


                              • Re: How necessary Baptism?

                                Originally posted by Christinme View Post
                                Are you so sure ... how about scripture where their whole household was baptised ... were there no children there???
                                To assume that Paul didn't share the Gospel with that household would be unwise IMO.

                                Comment

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