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  • Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Originally posted by Kalahari View Post
    1Jn 5:13* These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.*
    So then why are so many saying this doesn't happen, until after a water baptism?
    --
    Slug1--out

    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~

    ~John 6:62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before?~ (Jesus is Eternal - existed before becoming a man)

    Comment


    • Re: How necessary Baptism?

      Originally posted by Slug1 View Post
      So then why are so many saying this doesn't happen, until after a water baptism?
      Perhaps because they do not know what baptism stands for?

      Comment


      • Re: How necessary Baptism?

        I apologize if this has been discussed already but I haven't the time right now to read the whole thread. I've wrestled with the question of baptism for awhile now and believe I've found the answer. It's from Romans 4:
        "We have been saying that Abraham’s faith was credited to him as righteousness. Under what circumstances was it credited? Was it after he was circumcised, or before?
        It was not after, but before! And he received circumcision as a sign, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. So then, he is the
        father of all who believe but have not been circumcised, in order that righteousness might be credited to them."

        Similarly, baptism is a sign of one's faith in God's grace in Christ. Galatians 6:15 says:

        "Neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything; what counts is the new creation."

        Baptism is a sign of a person's commitment to Christ in faith. The Jewish religious leaders fell into the trap of thinking circumcision made them right with God. Christians might also fall into a similar trap, thinking baptism saves.

        That's how I interpret what I believe the Lord is trying to show me at least. Hope to have the time to read the whole thread soon.

        Cheers!
        Love is patient, love is kind; it does not envy, it does not boast; it is not arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth. Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never ends.

        Comment


        • Re: How necessary Baptism?

          Originally posted by randyk View Post
          I agree with you in principle about the need to obey, to verify our faith. I just don't apply that to Water Baptism. Nowhere in the Scriptures is Water Baptism a required form of obedience to verify faith for Salvation.
          If you ignore half the NT I could agree with you. However per scripture Water Baptism was already required. Lets see Mark 16:15:16 "15 He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned." 1st Peter 3:20-21 "Those were the spirits who refused to obey God long ago in the time of Noah. God was waiting patiently for people while Noah was building the big boat. And only a few—eight in all—were saved in the boat through the floodwater. 21 And that water is like baptism, which now saves you. Baptism is not the washing of dirt from the body. It is asking God for a clean conscience. It saves you because Jesus Christ was raised from death." Every conversion in the NT all of them have water baptism done. It was in the great commission and everyone taught it... Acts 2:37-38 notes its after that, that we get the gift of the holy spirit. These are just a snip it of passages but all of them notes salvation, command to do it, etc... no where in the NT does it ever suggest its for a public acknowledgement... families were baptized at midnight, on roads, with no one around... there was no public to acknowledge this act in those instances...

          Originally posted by randyk View Post
          It was just a common practice, and the way Christianity was initiated in history, both among the Jews and among the Gentiles. Nothing indicates it is part of the Gospel itself, or part of Salvation. It simply depicted Salvation as an initiation ceremony, comprising a public confession.
          See above... as noted it was part of the great commission. Jesus himself submitted to it... how is it not a part of salvation... those passages that mentions it saves makes me think its important.

          Originally posted by randyk View Post
          Confessing Christianity is an important part of our Christian obedience, but nothing says that confession must take the form of Water Baptism. The important kind of baptism was said to be Spirit Baptism, in which we are spiritually baptized into Christ!
          True however if we cut and clip out passages we could make anything be a part of salvation or the only thing required for salvation. As an example I could take Rom 10:10 and say confession is all that's needed nothing else. Or I could take John 3:16 and say all that is needed is faith nothing else... however we can't take a single passage and say welp that's all that's required. When looking at scripture and the conversions we have, it appears there are a few things each of us should do.

          1. Faith - I think we can all agree on this one - Heb 11:6 without it its impossible to please him.
          2. Confess - Rom 10:10 we must be willing to confess Christ. I don't think this is a one time deal in front of a church. But we should profess his name regardless of the situation. Its a on going thing.
          3. Repentance - Acts 2:38, Acts 17:30 we can see all men are commanded to repent. Its a change so we leave our old life and leave our sinful ways behind. This too is an ongoing process for all Christians.
          4. Baptism - Mark 16:15-16, Acts 2:37-38, Acts 22:16; 1st Peter 3:20-21, Acts 10:47, Acts 19:1-7, etc... as noted every conversion under NT did this. Not a single conversion not one doesn't have it in the NT, if so please point it out.
          5. Live a faithful life- Rev 2:10, 3:5 notes to be faithful unto death.

          Acts 8:26-ff shows most of those, we see the faith, the confession, and the baptism. Repentance isn't shown but assumed as he goes away rejoicing. Same is true in Acts 2:37-38 over 3000 baptized and saved that day. Paul's conversion Acts 22:16 - We see Faith, Confess, and baptism again. Every example of conversion its easy to see these things.

          Originally posted by randyk View Post
          Water Baptism is still an acceptable way to convert from a pagan lifestyle to Christianity. But nothing ever said it was necessary, except that Jesus gave that mandate to his original apostles. It *initiated* Christianity into the world. Those like myself who were raised Christians from birth have no need whatsoever to be baptized, to show conversion, since we weren't converted--we were raised in the Faith.
          See above passages, and notes... its always noted in a save you or saved context no where is it every a empty ritual or an cool club initiation process its always noted as a part of salvation or it saves you, washes away sins, etc.. never is it used to prove to someone that they are a Christian if so please provide a book chapter verse. I can and have provided passages that notes saved, washes away sin, and its a symbol of the Death Burial and Resurrection per Rom 6. Nothing ever noted it as not needed or a ritual.

          Originally posted by randyk View Post
          Granted--some raised in the Faith were not "born again," and still had to be born again later. Many, however, were raised in the Faith from birth, and had no obvious example of going from unbelief to belief. No need to get Water Baptized. (It's grievous that many modern Christian converts would insist that all Christians only have their own experience of Christian conversion to be "true Christians.")
          So this is address in the NT as well. Acts 8:1-25 you have a convert who is baptized and saved and falls from grace. He thinks he can buy the gift of God with money... he is told to come back via repentance and prayer. So per scripture those who are Christians who have made mistakes or fall away are to come back via repentance and prayer.

          Originally posted by randyk View Post
          Personally, I wandered away from Christian living for awhile, although I never gave up talking with the Lord and going to church. When I repented and returned to the Lord, I chose to get Water Baptized. It wasn't necessary, but it did show I was returning to the Faith. I had been dedicated, through Water Baptism, as an infant. But how can it hurt to get Water Baptized again?
          True it wouldn't hurt by no means, I have seen people request to get re-baptized for various reasons. One time a guy requested and noted he wanted to be rebaptized because when he was baptized the first time it was solely so he could marry his now then wife as he wanted to appease her parents.
          Isaiah 6:8 "Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, "Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?" And I said, "Here am I. Send me!" We should always be willing to do God's bidding, seek ye first the kingdom of God.

          I use Linux because I don't like Windows

          Comment


          • Re: How necessary Baptism?

            Originally posted by Kalahari View Post
            Perhaps because they do not know what baptism stands for?
            Apparently, thus putting salvation into man's faithful work and not faithful Jesus' work.
            --
            Slug1--out

            ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~

            ~John 6:62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before?~ (Jesus is Eternal - existed before becoming a man)

            Comment


            • Re: How necessary Baptism?

              Originally posted by Kalahari View Post
              Perhaps because they do not know what baptism stands for?
              Originally posted by Slug1 View Post
              Apparently, thus putting salvation into man's faithful work and not faithful Jesus' work.
              Easier to edit this way:

              To elaborate: When we believe, Jesus faithful commitment to the believer begins with Him redeeming/justifying the person the instant they believe unto Him. He makes them born-again. Now, the born-again Christians does their first work of faith in commitment to being faithful and obedient to Christ.

              Becoming born-again was by faithful Christ's work only, not man's work of faith.

              A water baptism is produce OF a person who Christ has redeemed/justified.
              --
              Slug1--out

              ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~

              ~John 6:62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before?~ (Jesus is Eternal - existed before becoming a man)

              Comment


              • Re: How necessary Baptism?

                Originally posted by Doug Brents View Post
                Question for you: When was Saul, later known as Paul the Apostle, saved?
                I'd say he was saved when he believed in Christ after his encounter with Jesus on his way to Damascus.

                Comment


                • Re: How necessary Baptism?

                  Originally posted by Slug1 View Post
                  While this may be how you interpret Acts 22, this is how Paul teaches what happened:

                  1 Cor 6:11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

                  So WHEN did all this happen? Upon their surrender over to Jesus or upon a man submerging them in water?
                  1 Cor 6:11 refers to when we believe in Christ which is much more than baptism.

                  Comment


                  • Re: How necessary Baptism?

                    Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
                    1 Cor 6:11 refers to when we believe in Christ which is much more than baptism.
                    Thus why a water baptism is a representation of all that Christ's baptism accomplished, in the life of any who has believed.
                    --
                    Slug1--out

                    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~

                    ~John 6:62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before?~ (Jesus is Eternal - existed before becoming a man)

                    Comment


                    • Re: How necessary Baptism?

                      Originally posted by Ziggie View Post
                      I see. I did notice that as well from your other posts.
                      So you believe that there is no interaction with the Spirit during a baptism ?
                      By committing to baptism, a believer is buried with Christ and raised up to walk in newness of life. The act of immersion in water is a physical experience, nevertheless, the spirit is not left behind because to live in newness of life requires God's indwelling Spirit to abide in us.

                      Comment


                      • Re: How necessary Baptism?

                        Originally posted by pdun459 View Post
                        I apologize if this has been discussed already but I haven't the time right now to read the whole thread. I've wrestled with the question of baptism for awhile now and believe I've found the answer. It's from Romans 4:
                        "We have been saying that Abraham’s faith was credited to him as righteousness. Under what circumstances was it credited? Was it after he was circumcised, or before?
                        It was not after, but before! And he received circumcision as a sign, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. So then, he is the
                        father of all who believe but have not been circumcised, in order that righteousness might be credited to them."

                        Similarly, baptism is a sign of one's faith in God's grace in Christ. Galatians 6:15 says:

                        "Neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything; what counts is the new creation."

                        Baptism is a sign of a person's commitment to Christ in faith. The Jewish religious leaders fell into the trap of thinking circumcision made them right with God. Christians might also fall into a similar trap, thinking baptism saves.

                        That's how I interpret what I believe the Lord is trying to show me at least. Hope to have the time to read the whole thread soon.

                        Cheers!
                        Cheers. I agree with you completely. Water Baptism is an external ritual designed to represent the fact you've already been saved, as a public testimony. It is *not* Salvation itself. When we begin to look to rituals as the *means* of Salvation, we're trying to circumvent faith in Christ, relying on rituals instead.

                        Comment


                        • Re: How necessary Baptism?

                          Originally posted by uric3 View Post
                          If you ignore half the NT I could agree with you. However per scripture Water Baptism was already required. Lets see Mark 16:15:16 "15 He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned." 1st Peter 3:20-21 "Those were the spirits who refused to obey God long ago in the time of Noah. God was waiting patiently for people while Noah was building the big boat. And only a few—eight in all—were saved in the boat through the floodwater. 21 And that water is like baptism, which now saves you. Baptism is not the washing of dirt from the body. It is asking God for a clean conscience. It saves you because Jesus Christ was raised from death." Every conversion in the NT all of them have water baptism done. It was in the great commission and everyone taught it... Acts 2:37-38 notes its after that, that we get the gift of the holy spirit. These are just a snip it of passages but all of them notes salvation, command to do it, etc... no where in the NT does it ever suggest its for a public acknowledgement... families were baptized at midnight, on roads, with no one around... there was no public to acknowledge this act in those instances...
                          I've already addressed most of this. Mandates given to 11 apostles is *not* explicit instruction to the whole Church. Indulgence in a ritual that *represents Salvation* is *not* Salvation! So we can't treat Water Baptism in the same way we treat Salvation. Water Baptism *follows* Salvation, and is not itself part of Salvation. No way even close is this "half the NT!"

                          Originally posted by uric
                          See above... as noted it was part of the great commission. Jesus himself submitted to it... how is it not a part of salvation... those passages that mentions it saves makes me think its important.
                          You're saying Jesus needed to be Saved through Water Baptism? Not!

                          Originally posted by uric
                          True however if we cut and clip out passages we could make anything be a part of salvation or the only thing required for salvation. As an example I could take Rom 10:10 and say confession is all that's needed nothing else. Or I could take John 3:16 and say all that is needed is faith nothing else... however we can't take a single passage and say welp that's all that's required. When looking at scripture and the conversions we have, it appears there are a few things each of us should do.
                          No, I'm not selecting passages independent from one another, and applying them in that way. Confession and behavior indicating abandonment of the carnal lifestyle for the spiritual lifestyle is, in general, required. Water Baptism is *never* explicitly required. Seeing Water Baptism practiced regularly and generally is not the same as explicit biblical doctrine mandating it.

                          There could be many reasons to have Water Baptism practiced in the Early Church without it being mandated as part of Salvation. For example, Water Baptism may have been introduced into the Early Church because Christianity was a brand new religion. Once it had been established in nations, conversion ceremonies may no longer always be necessary.

                          Originally posted by uric
                          1. Faith - I think we can all agree on this one - Heb 11:6 without it its impossible to please him.
                          2. Confess - Rom 10:10 we must be willing to confess Christ. I don't think this is a one time deal in front of a church. But we should profess his name regardless of the situation. Its a on going thing.
                          3. Repentance - Acts 2:38, Acts 17:30 we can see all men are commanded to repent. Its a change so we leave our old life and leave our sinful ways behind. This too is an ongoing process for all Christians.
                          4. Baptism - Mark 16:15-16, Acts 2:37-38, Acts 22:16; 1st Peter 3:20-21, Acts 10:47, Acts 19:1-7, etc... as noted every conversion under NT did this. Not a single conversion not one doesn't have it in the NT, if so please point it out.
                          5. Live a faithful life- Rev 2:10, 3:5 notes to be faithful unto death.

                          Acts 8:26-ff shows most of those, we see the faith, the confession, and the baptism. Repentance isn't shown but assumed as he goes away rejoicing. Same is true in Acts 2:37-38 over 3000 baptized and saved that day. Paul's conversion Acts 22:16 - We see Faith, Confess, and baptism again. Every example of conversion its easy to see these things.

                          See above passages, and notes... its always noted in a save you or saved context no where is it every a empty ritual or an cool club initiation process its always noted as a part of salvation or it saves you, washes away sins, etc.. never is it used to prove to someone that they are a Christian if so please provide a book chapter verse. I can and have provided passages that notes saved, washes away sin, and its a symbol of the Death Burial and Resurrection per Rom 6. Nothing ever noted it as not needed or a ritual.

                          So this is address in the NT as well. Acts 8:1-25 you have a convert who is baptized and saved and falls from grace. He thinks he can buy the gift of God with money... he is told to come back via repentance and prayer. So per scripture those who are Christians who have made mistakes or fall away are to come back via repentance and prayer.

                          True it wouldn't hurt by no means, I have seen people request to get re-baptized for various reasons. One time a guy requested and noted he wanted to be rebaptized because when he was baptized the first time it was solely so he could marry his now then wife as he wanted to appease her parents.
                          I'm busy, and will have to get back a little later.... Thanks for the discussion.

                          Comment


                          • Re: How necessary Baptism?

                            Originally posted by uric3 View Post
                            ....as noted it was part of the great commission. Jesus himself submitted to it... how is it not a part of salvation... those passages that mentions it saves makes me think its important.
                            Having Water Baptism commissioned to the 11 apostles is not the same thing as making Water Baptism part of Salvation. It was important, but not necessary. It was *not* a part of Salvation. It *depicted* Salvation. It was an *acknowledgement* of Salvation. But it was *not* Salvation! And that's all that's important. There is nothing critical beyond Salvation itself, and living a holy life consistent with it. Water Baptism is *not* part of that "holy life!"

                            Originally posted by uric
                            True however if we cut and clip out passages we could make anything be a part of salvation or the only thing required for salvation. As an example I could take Rom 10:10 and say confession is all that's needed nothing else. Or I could take John 3:16 and say all that is needed is faith nothing else... however we can't take a single passage and say welp that's all that's required. When looking at scripture and the conversions we have, it appears there are a few things each of us should do.
                            No, we can't dictate ourselves what is necessary for Salvation. We must get our description from the Scriptures themselves. And the Scriptures say that we must obey God. His requirement is sometimes individual in what He demands as acceptance of Salvation. It generally requires acceptance of the redemption that Christ won for us, and then, the embrace of what that means for our lives, in terms of giving up our carnal ways and putting on his spiritual ways.

                            But Water Baptism has nothing to do with living the spiritual life. It is just a way of confessing our Salvation, which can take many forms. One acceptable way happens to be getting Water Baptism at conversion. It is not critically important because there are times when it is either impossible or inconvenient. And in case such as my own, it simply doesn't make sense. I've always been a Christian.

                            Originally posted by uric
                            1. Faith - I think we can all agree on this one - Heb 11:6 without it its impossible to please him.
                            2. Confess - Rom 10:10 we must be willing to confess Christ. I don't think this is a one time deal in front of a church. But we should profess his name regardless of the situation. Its a on going thing.
                            3. Repentance - Acts 2:38, Acts 17:30 we can see all men are commanded to repent. Its a change so we leave our old life and leave our sinful ways behind. This too is an ongoing process for all Christians.
                            4. Baptism - Mark 16:15-16, Acts 2:37-38, Acts 22:16; 1st Peter 3:20-21, Acts 10:47, Acts 19:1-7, etc... as noted every conversion under NT did this. Not a single conversion not one doesn't have it in the NT, if so please point it out.
                            5. Live a faithful life- Rev 2:10, 3:5 notes to be faithful unto death.
                            Practice of Water Baptism was ubiquitous in the Early Church because the Early Church was founded by the Apostles who were commissioned with doing this. And most of what we read in Acts consisted of the work of the apostles. None of this means the Scriptures put into the Salvation equation an explicit requirement that we be Water Baptized. Nor is anybody explicitly condemned for not getting Water Baptized. There is a reason it is *not* explicit doctrine!

                            Originally posted by uric
                            Acts 8:26-ff shows most of those, we see the faith, the confession, and the baptism. Repentance isn't shown but assumed as he goes away rejoicing. Same is true in Acts 2:37-38 over 3000 baptized and saved that day. Paul's conversion Acts 22:16 - We see Faith, Confess, and baptism again. Every example of conversion its easy to see these things.

                            See above passages, and notes... its always noted in a save you or saved context no where is it every a empty ritual or an cool club initiation process its always noted as a part of salvation or it saves you, washes away sins, etc.. never is it used to prove to someone that they are a Christian if so please provide a book chapter verse. I can and have provided passages that notes saved, washes away sin, and its a symbol of the Death Burial and Resurrection per Rom 6. Nothing ever noted it as not needed or a ritual.
                            I've *never* insinuated or said that Water Baptism is a flippant ritual taken half seriously. It is a serious confession of faith at the point of conversion. And as I said, it is important if for no other reason than it is a confession of belief. It is *faith* that Saves, brother. Water Baptism is an external act, as Peter said. If you want Scripture, read Peter where he describes Water Baptism as not the removal of bodily polution, or an external act, but rather, as symbolic of inward, spiritual Salvation.

                            Beyond that, read how Jesus did not Water Baptize personally, or did not need to be baptized himself, except due to the Father's will for his life. He was sinless, and did not need to repent. John the Baptist needed to be baptized by him!

                            Read where Paul denied doing many water baptism because he did not consider it a critical part of his gospel mission.

                            Originally posted by uric
                            So this is address in the NT as well. Acts 8:1-25 you have a convert who is baptized and saved and falls from grace. He thinks he can buy the gift of God with money... he is told to come back via repentance and prayer. So per scripture those who are Christians who have made mistakes or fall away are to come back via repentance and prayer.
                            I don't think this is an example of a true believer backsliding at all!

                            Originally posted by uric
                            True it wouldn't hurt by no means, I have seen people request to get re-baptized for various reasons. One time a guy requested and noted he wanted to be rebaptized because when he was baptized the first time it was solely so he could marry his now then wife as he wanted to appease her parents.
                            There is nothing magical about Water Baptism. It is purely a public statement. Is it a public statement? It certainly was when Israel went out to the Jordan River to be baptized by John the Baptist. Peter said it is a ritual symbolizing Salvation--performing it is a statement we're making to ourselves, to God, to the one baptizing us, and to anybody else who happens to be watching.

                            Comment


                            • Re: How necessary Baptism?

                              When Jesus was baptized it said he saw the spirit of God entered him ....

                              And then later Jesus said do you really desire to be baptized by the baptism that I am baptized by ?
                              And the people said yea! Then Jesus said ok let it be...

                              Ok so whats really happening here ?

                              You can be saved sure. You don't need to be baptized sure. All true.

                              If you think its magic or however you are mocking the idea.... Just consider that Jesus knew he had to be baptized and John when he saw Jesus he said, But I am the one who needs to be baptized by you.

                              God has kept men alive here to baptize for thousands of years since then.
                              And great houses were built and defended by blood for it.

                              When Jesus was baptized it said he saw the spirit of God entered him ....

                              And then later Jesus said do you really desire to be baptized by the baptism that I am baptized by ?
                              And the people said yea! Then Jesus said ok let it be...

                              Ok so whats really happening here ?

                              You can be saved sure. You don't need to be baptized sure. All true.

                              If you think its magic or however you are mocking the idea.... Just consider that Jesus knew he had to be baptized and John when he saw Jesus he said, But I am the one who needs to be baptized by you.

                              God has kept men alive here to baptize for thousands of years since then.
                              And great houses were built and defended by blood for it.

                              Comment


                              • Re: How necessary Baptism?

                                Originally posted by Slug1 View Post
                                There is more to the story then

                                Lets step back a step then. When a person hears the Gospel and then this person calls Jesus, "Lord" is this or is this not due to belief in Jesus Christ?
                                That may very well be true, but ""Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven." Matt 7:21

                                Comment

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