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  • Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Originally posted by Deade View Post
    Oh, come on Slug1. You know the answer and his answer to that. God will not hold us to something impossible.
    Jesus redeems a person the instant they believe and as you can see in the answer below, some allude to Jesus NOT redeeming in the moment He gives the growth (upon the choice to believe) and He makes a person born-again.


    Originally posted by Doug Brents View Post
    Yes, I am saying that if I had not obeyed Him, His covenant is not yet with me. I would not yet be grafted into the tree that is Jesus Rom 11:17-21. Now, as has been said elsewhere in this thread, I am not God, and He is merciful. He may choose to save me if, given your example above, I died at that instant. But I wouldn't expect Him to, because He is also Just.
    Based on your previous post (below), are you saying it is NOT the blood (power of His death and resurrection) that saves, but the action of another man to baptize you in water AFTER Jesus has baptized you in His blood?

    When I believed that Jesus needed to be Lord of my life, I chose to repent and walk His path, I then confessed my belief that Jesus was God's Son and was baptized into His blood so that I could be forgiven of my sins.
    --
    Slug1--out

    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~

    ~John 6:62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before?~ (Jesus is Eternal - existed before becoming a man)

    Comment


    • Re: How necessary Baptism?

      Originally posted by Doug Brents View Post
      Never had to convert? You were raised in a Christian household, but you were not a Christian yourself until you came to an understanding of what you were taught, and made the decision to obey Christ. I too was raised in a Christian household. I too lived a good life at first. I too loved to sing and pray, and worship God. But there came a time when I was convicted that I was a sinner. That I was had not been obedient to Him. I studied the Word and was convicted that I needed to dedicate myself to Him as the believers in the first century did. So I went to our minister and told him that I believed and that I needed salvation from sin. He baptized me (I was 14).

      You can emphasize the "non-importance" of water baptism all you want, but Scripture (which is what really matters in this discussion) says differently.
      I didn't go to the pastor at 14 to express a need for salvation from sin because at that age I had already received two years of catechism, studying both the teachings of Martin Luther and the entire Bible. I did not enquire into Salvation since I already considered myself a Christian.

      I emphasize the non-importance of Water Baptism because it is for the new convert, and since I was already a Christian it would be insensible to pretend I wasn't one and needed to show the world I was repenting from paganism.

      Comment


      • Re: How necessary Baptism?

        Originally posted by Kalahari View Post
        I will answer fully later, but according to your answer are all children lost because of being unbelievers? Especially those who have died in infancy?
        No, I believe we can exist in three states in this life. Safe, lost, and saved. Safe are those who have not sinned. Those who, due to infancy, birth defect, or injury, have never understood the difference between right and wrong. Lost are those who have attained the level of understanding to know right from wrong and chosen wrong. And finally there are those who hear the Word, believe It, and obey It.

        Comment


        • Re: How necessary Baptism?

          Originally posted by Slug1 View Post
          Based on your previous post (below), are you saying it is NOT the blood (power of His death and resurrection) that saves, but the action of another man to baptize you in water AFTER Jesus has baptized you in His blood?
          On the contrary, Scripture points out that it is in the water of baptism that we come in contact with the Blood. Thus it is the power of the Blood, in the water of baptism, that saves.

          Comment


          • Re: How necessary Baptism?

            Originally posted by randyk View Post
            I didn't go to the pastor at 14 to express a need for salvation from sin because at that age I had already received two years of catechism, studying both the teachings of Martin Luther and the entire Bible. I did not enquire into Salvation since I already considered myself a Christian.

            I emphasize the non-importance of Water Baptism because it is for the new convert, and since I was already a Christian it would be insensible to pretend I wasn't one and needed to show the world I was repenting from paganism.
            YOU considered yourself to be a Christian, but God did not. That is something I have been trying to get across. It doesn't matter how much we think we are His, if He doesn't know us then we we are still lost. He only knows those who have been born again. And everyone needs to be born again, even those of us who were raised in the Church.

            Salvation is not just for pagans. It is for everyone who has sinned. Even those, like us, who were raised in the Church are lost when we, as children, choose to disobey. We come to a point when we have learned right and wrong and we choose wrong. That makes us lost, and only Jesus' Blood will wash us clean again.

            Comment


            • Re: How necessary Baptism?

              Originally posted by Doug Brents View Post
              No, I believe we can exist in three states in this life. Safe, lost, and saved. Safe are those who have not sinned. Those who, due to infancy, birth defect, or injury, have never understood the difference between right and wrong. Lost are those who have attained the level of understanding to know right from wrong and chosen wrong. And finally there are those who hear the Word, believe It, and obey It.
              Thanks for your understanding, but imo Scripture does not agree with it.

              Rom 3:10 As the Scriptures say: "There is no one who is righteous,
              Rom 5:12 Sin came into the world through one man, and his sin brought death with it. As a result, death has spread to the whole human race because everyone has sinned.
              Joh 16:9 They are wrong about sin, because they do not believe in me;

              Comment


              • Re: How necessary Baptism?

                Originally posted by Doug Brents View Post
                On the contrary, Scripture points out that it is in the water of baptism that we come in contact with the Blood. Thus it is the power of the Blood, in the water of baptism, that saves.
                For Protestant denominations, to teach that faith + a water baptism is a requirement for salvation, is to teach a different Gospel message.
                --
                Slug1--out

                ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~

                ~John 6:62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before?~ (Jesus is Eternal - existed before becoming a man)

                Comment


                • Re: How necessary Baptism?

                  Originally posted by Doug Brents View Post
                  YOU considered yourself to be a Christian, but God did not. That is something I have been trying to get across. It doesn't matter how much we think we are His, if He doesn't know us then we we are still lost. He only knows those who have been born again. And everyone needs to be born again, even those of us who were raised in the Church.

                  Salvation is not just for pagans. It is for everyone who has sinned. Even those, like us, who were raised in the Church are lost when we, as children, choose to disobey. We come to a point when we have learned right and wrong and we choose wrong. That makes us lost, and only Jesus' Blood will wash us clean again.
                  So you're saying that "choosing wrong" makes us lost? That is unbiblical. The Apostle John said that anybody who denies they sin is a liar. That would, apparently, make you a liar, since you are claiming you are a Christian and do not "choose wrong" at times?

                  Comment


                  • Re: How necessary Baptism?

                    Originally posted by Doug Brents View Post
                    On the contrary, Scripture points out that it is in the water of baptism that we come in contact with the Blood. Thus it is the power of the Blood, in the water of baptism, that saves.
                    Originally posted by Slug1 View Post
                    For Protestant denominations, to teach that faith + a water baptism is a requirement for salvation, is to teach a different Gospel message.
                    The reason I mention about faith + a water baptism, check this verse out and I will provide more.

                    1 Pet. 3:21, "and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also--not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ."

                    ESV:21 Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
                    KJV: 21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

                    I can post more translations. However, lets view the Greek for the term that is critical:

                    Strong's Concordance
                    antitupos: struck back, corresponding to
                    Original Word: ἀντίτυπος, ον
                    Part of Speech: Adjective
                    Transliteration: antitupos
                    Phonetic Spelling: (an-teet'-oo-pon)
                    Definition: struck back, corresponding to
                    Usage: typical of, representing by type (or pattern), corresponding to, an image.

                    HELPS Word-studies

                    499 antítypon (from 473/antí, "corresponding to" and 5179/typos, "type") – properly, an antitype which corresponds to (fulfills) a type (a predictive symbol). See 5179 /typos ("a theological type") for extended discussion.
                    Copyright © 1987, 2011 by Helps Ministries, Inc.
                    So a water baptism represents WHAT?

                    Answer: The baptism Jesus "did" when by faith, a person chose to believe in Him and He washed them or cleansed them of the sins they repented of.

                    Jesus does all the saving, not a man submerging a believer into water.
                    --
                    Slug1--out

                    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~

                    ~John 6:62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before?~ (Jesus is Eternal - existed before becoming a man)

                    Comment


                    • Re: How necessary Baptism?

                      Originally posted by Slug1 View Post
                      The reason I mention about faith + a water baptism, check this verse out and I will provide more.

                      1 Pet. 3:21, "and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also--not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ."

                      ESV:21 Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
                      KJV: 21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

                      I can post more translations. However, lets view the Greek for the term that is critical:



                      So a water baptism represents WHAT?

                      Answer: The baptism Jesus "did" when by faith, a person chose to believe in Him and He washed them or cleansed them of the sins they repented of.

                      Jesus does all the saving, not a man submerging a believer into water.
                      Exactly. That is not diminishing the value of Water Baptism. Rather, it's enhancing the value of Water Baptism. It is a confession of what has already happened to us spiritually, and solidifies that commitment by a public act. And that act sort of reenacts what happened as a further commitment, and as a testimony to others.

                      Comment


                      • Re: How necessary Baptism?

                        Originally posted by randyk View Post
                        Exactly. That is not diminishing the value of Water Baptism. Rather, it's enhancing the value of Water Baptism. It is a confession of what has already happened to us spiritually, and solidifies that commitment by a public act. And that act sort of reenacts what happened as a further commitment, and as a testimony to others.
                        Exactly and to say the water (man's work) is what does the saving, is to teach another Gospel.
                        --
                        Slug1--out

                        ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~

                        ~John 6:62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before?~ (Jesus is Eternal - existed before becoming a man)

                        Comment


                        • Re: How necessary Baptism?

                          Originally posted by Doug Brents View Post
                          YOU considered yourself to be a Christian, but God did not.
                          You are playing the "Holy Spirit" here. God decides who is really a Christian--not you. It may not appear to fit your particular theology. But in debatable areas, I think you'd be wise to let God decide?

                          Originally posted by Doug Brents
                          That is something I have been trying to get across. It doesn't matter how much we think we are His, if He doesn't know us then we we are still lost.
                          This is judgmentalism. You're passing judgment by "appearances," without knowing the actual circumstances. That's a dangerous position to take, because God said He will visit upon you the same kind of "impatience," or "presumption." He will deliver upon you exactly what you give others.

                          Originally posted by Doug Brents
                          He only knows those who have been born again. And everyone needs to be born again, even those of us who were raised in the Church.
                          Here again you are judging illegitimately, not really knowing whether I was "born again" or not. Your assumption appears to be that someone, like me, who chooses to backslide, cannot have ever been "born again." In reality, men like Peter, who had faith enough to confess Jesus as the Christ did choose to turn away, and opposed Jesus' notion that he had to go to the cross.

                          Quite frankly, the issue of what "born again" is, as used by Jesus, is a subject all to itself. For example, is this only NT or is it also OT, since Jesus spoke of it to Nicodemus while still under the Law?

                          Being a genuine Christian, in my view, is indeed more than just nominally adhering to the creeds and attending church regularly. It is even more than superficial belief in Jesus, without a genuine spiritual conversion.

                          In my circumstances it's a little more difficult, because I grew up in a very old religious tradition. We considered "genuiine Christianity" merely a means of belief in Jesus, along with "living by the 10 Commandments." So it had a couple of very important elements in defining a Christian.

                          I do admit that my comprehension of the "Christian walk" was weak, and didn't fully comprehend how pagan society was, and how much I had to separate from pagan friends. I thought my parents were too judgmental towards my pagan classmates, who needed love and compassion. Yes, I was "liberal" in my outlook!

                          In the end, I discovered there was truth in both viewpoints. Christians needed to reach out to the pagan world. And Christians need to not actually fellowship or partner with the pagan world.

                          The big deal to me was in learning that my walk with Christ needed to be deeper. I needed the realization that the Holy Spirit is Jesus' agent with us now on earth, and in our lives. When I came to understand that, it greatly enhanced my Christian understanding, and I actually began to walk in it the way I should have been doing all along.

                          Originally posted by Doug Brents
                          Salvation is not just for pagans. It is for everyone who has sinned. Even those, like us, who were raised in the Church are lost when we, as children, choose to disobey. We come to a point when we have learned right and wrong and we choose wrong. That makes us lost, and only Jesus' Blood will wash us clean again.
                          Lots of people raised in the church were not like our family. They came and went. Some took catechism like me, and never knew the Lord at all. One of them said to me, "Oh good, now we can drink the Communion wine!" That really turned me off. I wasn't like him!

                          Shame on you for presuming to know my heart in growing up. My turning away from the Lord for a season was due to circumstances that I have not fully related. It was wrong, but it was never a turning away from Christ himself. He has always been the one I love.

                          Comment


                          • Re: How necessary Baptism?

                            Originally posted by randyk View Post
                            You are playing the "Holy Spirit" here. God decides who is really a Christian--not you. It may not appear to fit your particular theology. But in debatable areas, I think you'd be wise to let God decide?
                            Randy, based on how I interpret Doug's post to which this response is to taht specific part... I do see his point.

                            I've ministered to people who were members and even a leader in church and in time, they accepted Christ after YEARS of warming that pew. Because of their "indoctrination" and upbringing in their denomination, they were not saved because while they "thought" they were following and serving Christ, they were not. They were following and serving their church. Why? Because they never accepted Christ as Lord.

                            So I can see what Doug said in that specific comment he made.
                            --
                            Slug1--out

                            ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~

                            ~John 6:62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before?~ (Jesus is Eternal - existed before becoming a man)

                            Comment


                            • Re: How necessary Baptism?

                              Originally posted by randyk View Post
                              You are playing the "Holy Spirit" here. God decides who is really a Christian--not you. It may not appear to fit your particular theology. But in debatable areas, I think you'd be wise to let God decide?
                              Randy, based on how I interpret Doug's post to which this response is to taht specific part... I do see his point.

                              I've ministered to people who were members and even a leader in church and in time, they accepted Christ after YEARS of warming that pew. Because of their "indoctrination" and upbringing in their denomination, they were not saved because while they "thought" they were following and serving Christ, they were not. They were following and serving their church. Why? Because they never accepted Christ as Lord.

                              So I can see what Doug said in that specific comment he made.
                              --
                              Slug1--out

                              ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~

                              ~John 6:62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before?~ (Jesus is Eternal - existed before becoming a man)

                              Comment


                              • Re: How necessary Baptism?

                                Originally posted by randyk View Post
                                This oversimplifies the problem, as I describe it. If we have a different kind of "work," other than the "work of Redemption," then certainly Jesus is "guilty" of asking for certain "works" in order to dispense Salvation. For example, he required of the Rich Young Ruler that he give up his wealth, which is clearly a "work."

                                So it really matters what kind of "work" you're talking about? The most common use of "works" would, of course, be prohibited, because it would amount to "earning one's own Salvation!" We do not earn, by works, our way into heaven. We must receive the merit that Christ applied in his work of redeeming us, mimicking and living in his spiritual righteousness, but certainly not participating in the actual work that redeemed us!
                                I've not been frequent as I'd love and regrettably have not followed your position on this topic. It was actually bro Walls that I had in mind as teaching that some king of 'work' is required for salvation. If you share the same view, then you are wrong too. You see the problem is your misunderstanding of what is at the heart of Jesus Christ' instruction to the rich man to go and dispose of his wealth and follow him.

                                Giving up his wealth as requested is not work but rather an expression of faith in Christ on the part of the rich man. His failure to comply ergo is evident that he lacked faith in Jesus which was not entirely surprising considering he had lived by the requirements of the law. From his exchange with Jesus, it is apparent that he was confident that having fulfilled the law, nothing more was amiss. Therefore, he considered Jesus Christ' commandment to dispose of his wealth as unnecessary and outside the scope of the law.

                                Comment

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