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  • Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Originally posted by Slug1 View Post
    Originally Posted by Doug Brents
    Eph 1:13-14 confirms my position, not refutes it.
    "In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory."

    So after you heard the Word, you believed, and then were sealed with the Holy Spirit. Now when does the Spirit seal us. Certainly it is after we believe, yes? But it does not, here, tell us at what point we are sealed other than after belief. We have to look elsewhere to see that, and in multiple passages we are told it is in the water of baptism.

    I have asked before, what is faith? Faith is our belief in action. It is, in part, our obedience to the Gospel. Thus, being baptized is faith. And it is through faith that we are saved by Grace. The passages you list are written to believers who have already followed the path to salvation. In chapter 6 they are reminded that they were baptized into Christ, and being united with Him in death they are united with Him in resurrection. Here in chapter 5, Paul assumes that they understand faith to be active and a response to our belief as described in James 2 and other passages.

    When does Scripture say we receive the Spirit? Clearly in Eph 1 we are told it is after belief, but are there any other passages that tell us of things that must come first also? Acts 2:38, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. So belief only is not enough. Yes it is required that we believe, but baptism must also come before the indwelling of the Spirit.



    Brother, there is a context, meaning: either apart from the other do not show the other is wrong.

    Both are correct and divide/compliment each other.

    Meaning, by hermeneutics and exegesis, what are both scriptures teaching?

    Question, by sealing us in the Holy Spirit, God is claiming the believer "as His."

    Are you saying, He can't do this until a man first baptizes a believer... God has to hold-off in sealing the believer?
    God said he is not sealed by the Holy Spirit until the man obeys the Gospel. When we are buried with Christ, we receive the Spirit. When our sins are washed away, we are resurrected with Christ. This all happens in the water of baptism.

    Originally posted by Slug1 View Post
    Originally Posted by Doug Brents
    Eph 1:13-14 confirms my position, not refutes it.
    "In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory."

    So after you heard the Word, you believed, and then were sealed with the Holy Spirit. Now when does the Spirit seal us. Certainly it is after we believe, yes? But it does not, here, tell us at what point we are sealed other than after belief. We have to look elsewhere to see that, and in multiple passages we are told it is in the water of baptism.

    I have asked before, what is faith? Faith is our belief in action. It is, in part, our obedience to the Gospel. Thus, being baptized is faith. And it is through faith that we are saved by Grace. The passages you list are written to believers who have already followed the path to salvation. In chapter 6 they are reminded that they were baptized into Christ, and being united with Him in death they are united with Him in resurrection. Here in chapter 5, Paul assumes that they understand faith to be active and a response to our belief as described in James 2 and other passages.

    When does Scripture say we receive the Spirit? Clearly in Eph 1 we are told it is after belief, but are there any other passages that tell us of things that must come first also? Acts 2:38, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. So belief only is not enough. Yes it is required that we believe, but baptism must also come before the indwelling of the Spirit.



    Brother, there is a context, meaning: either apart from the other do not show the other is wrong.

    Both are correct and divide/compliment each other.

    Meaning, by hermeneutics and exegesis, what are both scriptures teaching?

    Question, by sealing us in the Holy Spirit, God is claiming the believer "as His."

    Are you saying, He can't do this until a man first baptizes a believer... God has to hold-off in sealing the believer?
    God said he is not sealed by the Holy Spirit until the man obeys the Gospel. When we are buried with Christ, we receive the Spirit. When our sins are washed away, we are resurrected with Christ. This all happens in the water of baptism.

    Comment


    • Re: How necessary Baptism?

      Originally posted by Doug Brents View Post
      God said he is not sealed by the Holy Spirit until the man obeys the Gospel. When we are buried with Christ, we receive the Spirit. When our sins are washed away, we are resurrected with Christ. This all happens in the water of baptism.
      Who is not sealed until water baptism?
      --
      Slug1--out

      ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~

      ~John 6:62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before?~ (Jesus is Eternal - existed before becoming a man)

      Comment


      • Re: How necessary Baptism?

        Originally posted by Doug Brents View Post
        Then you need to go back and read your Scripture some more, because this is the truth written in Scripture.
        Not me Doug, but definitely you. The Gospel is very clear that we are only saved by Jesus. Baptism is only a sign, but according to you it is also your saviour. Those who do not obey the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ are those who do not believe in Him and only Him. Your gospel is a Jesus plus baptism gospel which will get you into hell.

        You make salvation not to be of grace, but of baptism which is unscriptural. Take a break and go and study some more praying to the Spirit to open your eyes to the true gospel of Christ and not the gospel of baptism.

        Comment


        • Re: How necessary Baptism?

          Originally posted by Slug1 View Post
          Who is not sealed until water baptism?
          Anyone. No one is sealed without obedience, ie: water baptism.

          Comment


          • Re: How necessary Baptism?

            Originally posted by Doug Brents View Post
            Let me paraphrase your question to see if I understand what you are asking. If, as you teach, you are saved when you believe, and you go into the water thinking you are already washed clean, and the purpose of baptism in your mind is to show others what you believe already happened in your heart, are you saved?

            I would have to say no, you are not saved. Scripture gives the reasons for baptism in several places, and none of them are as a confirmation of our salvation.
            That's what I thought. I have no need to dialogue further with you.

            Comment


            • Re: How necessary Baptism?

              Originally posted by Doug Brents View Post
              Anyone. No one is sealed without obedience, ie: water baptism.
              faith/grace and the person's belief... isn't enough? God has to wait for a man to water baptize first?

              Again, this is changing the Gospel message to: Believe and Christ will save you, but not until a man submerges you in water... THEN, Jesus can save you.

              Ephesians 1:13 supports what the Gospel says... when a person believes, they are sealed - Born Again

              I'll trust in God's promise of the Holy Spirit and the work of Christ... soon as a person believes, they are sealed.

              The water baptism is our first work of obedience as PROOF of one's salvation! NOT, a man having to do this work, TO BE saved.
              --
              Slug1--out

              ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~

              ~John 6:62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before?~ (Jesus is Eternal - existed before becoming a man)

              Comment


              • Re: How necessary Baptism?

                One would think that people these days are hyper-grace oriented and if one didn't know any better it would be safe to assume that Christian's in general are more liberal concerning Jesus being the only way, and that things like Universalism would be more prevalent in Christian circles. I occasionally see the Prosperity folks on here, the name it and claim it folks too, but even they aren't that common. All of those things are in and around here from time to time , but from all of that stuff I've seen on this site over the years , nothing is more common than people coming here to push works. Nothing.

                Comment


                • Re: How necessary Baptism?

                  Originally posted by Pbminimum View Post
                  One would think that people these days are hyper-grace oriented and if one didn't know any better it would be safe to assume that Christian's in general are more liberal concerning Jesus being the only way, and that things like Universalism would be more prevalent in Christian circles. I occasionally see the Prosperity folks on here, the name it and claim it folks too, but even they aren't that common. All of those things are in and around here from time to time , but from all of that stuff I've seen on this site over the years , nothing is more common than people coming here to push works. Nothing.
                  And the fruit of this problem is their ability to call out who is and isn't saved, based on the scale of works they require for salvation.
                  --
                  Slug1--out

                  ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~

                  ~John 6:62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before?~ (Jesus is Eternal - existed before becoming a man)

                  Comment


                  • Re: How necessary Baptism?

                    Originally posted by Slug1 View Post
                    And the fruit of this problem is their ability to call out who is and isn't saved, based on the scale of works they require for salvation.
                    Indeed, despite scriptures explicit position that we are saved by His grace and not by works.

                    Originally posted by Slug1 View Post
                    And the fruit of this problem is their ability to call out who is and isn't saved, based on the scale of works they require for salvation.
                    Indeed, despite scriptures explicit position that we are saved by His grace and not by works.

                    Comment


                    • Re: How necessary Baptism?

                      Originally posted by Kalahari View Post
                      Not me Doug, but definitely you. The Gospel is very clear that we are only saved by Jesus. Baptism is only a sign, but according to you it is also your saviour. Those who do not obey the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ are those who do not believe in Him and only Him. Your gospel is a Jesus plus baptism gospel which will get you into hell.

                      You make salvation not to be of grace, but of baptism which is unscriptural. Take a break and go and study some more praying to the Spirit to open your eyes to the true gospel of Christ and not the gospel of baptism.
                      We are definitely saved by Jesus. I have said this from the beginning. His Blood is what washes away our sins and allows us to reenter a relationship with God. Our only disagreement is when the Blood cleanses our sins. You say when a person believes they are saved from that instant on. Scripture is very clear that many will believe and be lost.
                      "“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’"
                      These people believed in God, thought they were doing God's work, cast our demons, did miracles, and many other things in Jesus' name. But what does He say? "I NEVER KNEW YOU. Without obedience it is impossible to please God, and if you don't obey Him, you don't love Him.

                      What I am saying, what Scripture says, is not a salvation of baptism, but a salvation of grace through obedience. I have been studying Scripture, the whole of it, for over 40 years. Yes, Scripture says many times that those who believe will be saved. But you don't really believe if you don't obey. God tells us that many times. Look up all the times in the NT where Scripture says they "obeyed the Gospel". If belief were all that was required, there would be nothing to obey. But over and over we are told that this person, or that group "obeyed the Gospel". Take a page out of their book, get your ego and your pride out of the way, and submit to the command of the MOST HIGH GOD! Obey His Gospel, and salvation is yours. Refuse to obey, and even if you believe and do great things in His name, He will tell you on that day, "I never knew you. Depart from Me."

                      Comment


                      • Re: How necessary Baptism?

                        Originally posted by Slug1 View Post
                        faith/grace and the person's belief... isn't enough? God has to wait for a man to water baptize first?

                        Again, this is changing the Gospel message to: Believe and Christ will save you, but not until a man submerges you in water... THEN, Jesus can save you.

                        Ephesians 1:13 supports what the Gospel says... when a person believes, they are sealed - Born Again

                        I'll trust in God's promise of the Holy Spirit and the work of Christ... soon as a person believes, they are sealed.

                        The water baptism is our first work of obedience as PROOF of one's salvation! NOT, a man having to do this work, TO BE saved.
                        God doesn't wait on anything to save us. He offered salvation on His time to all creation from Adam to Armageddon. We are required to grab hold of it. We cannot save ourselves, but He will not pull those who do not love Him out of the fire. And only those who obey Him love Him. You obviously haven't read and studied any of the Scripture that I have quoted. You insist that a few passages where It says what you want to hear are all that is required, and refuse to see that God has something else in mind. HIS mind, not mine. I am only telling you what HE said to anyone who has ears to hear, and a heart willing to open. Eph 1:13 is a stepping stone, not the end of the story.

                        Comment


                        • Re: How necessary Baptism?

                          Originally posted by Doug Brents View Post
                          God doesn't wait on anything to save us. He offered salvation on His time to all creation from Adam to Armageddon. We are required to grab hold of it. We cannot save ourselves, but He will not pull those who do not love Him out of the fire. And only those who obey Him love Him. You obviously haven't read and studied any of the Scripture that I have quoted. You insist that a few passages where It says what you want to hear are all that is required, and refuse to see that God has something else in mind. HIS mind, not mine. I am only telling you what HE said to anyone who has ears to hear, and a heart willing to open. Eph 1:13 is a stepping stone, not the end of the story.
                          Ephesians 2: 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

                          How does the context of this verse fit in with your boasting about how you weren't saved until another man submerged you in water? Also, how does the context of this verse allow you to determine another's salvation when they have not yet had another man submerge them in water?

                          You are changing the message of the Gospel by saying that faith doesn't save

                          Have you ever read the Parable of the Sower? Jesus spells it out, the devil doesn't have to prevent a baptism to prevent salvation, the devil has to prevent belief ONLY, to prevent a person from being saved. He does this by stealing the Gospel (blinding and deafening) the lost.

                          Your teachings teach that Jesus doesn't save WHEN HE SAYS He does... go ahead, read the parable.
                          --
                          Slug1--out

                          ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~

                          ~John 6:62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before?~ (Jesus is Eternal - existed before becoming a man)

                          Comment


                          • Re: How necessary Baptism?

                            Originally posted by Slug1 View Post
                            Sure seems that 1 provision of evidence that is provided in the Bible FOR a person who is (has been) saved, this FIRST work is to be baptized.
                            Tradition--not Bible! Just find yourself anywhere that baptism is proposed for someone living in righteousness (aside from Jesus, of course).

                            Comment


                            • Re: How necessary Baptism?

                              Originally posted by Doug Brents View Post
                              We are definitely saved by Jesus. I have said this from the beginning. His Blood is what washes away our sins and allows us to reenter a relationship with God. Our only disagreement is when the Blood cleanses our sins. You say when a person believes they are saved from that instant on. Scripture is very clear that many will believe and be lost.
                              "“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’"
                              These people believed in God, thought they were doing God's work, cast our demons, did miracles, and many other things in Jesus' name. But what does He say? "I NEVER KNEW YOU. Without obedience it is impossible to please God, and if you don't obey Him, you don't love Him.

                              What I am saying, what Scripture says, is not a salvation of baptism, but a salvation of grace through obedience. I have been studying Scripture, the whole of it, for over 40 years. Yes, Scripture says many times that those who believe will be saved. But you don't really believe if you don't obey. God tells us that many times. Look up all the times in the NT where Scripture says they "obeyed the Gospel". If belief were all that was required, there would be nothing to obey. But over and over we are told that this person, or that group "obeyed the Gospel". Take a page out of their book, get your ego and your pride out of the way, and submit to the command of the MOST HIGH GOD! Obey His Gospel, and salvation is yours. Refuse to obey, and even if you believe and do great things in His name, He will tell you on that day, "I never knew you. Depart from Me."
                              I know you say that salvation is of grace through obedience, but that is not what Scripture says. Scripture says we are saved by grace through faith in Christ.

                              You say we are saved when we obey and then specifically by baptism. Scripture knows nothing of it. Scripture knows of salvation by grace through faith in Christ.

                              What you are warning us all, which is good, you unfortunately are guilty of and that is not having faith in Christ and Him alone. You can say Lord, Lord but if you add anything to who He is, your actions says He is not your Lord. You can do all the works for Him by preaching the Gospel, deliver people from demons and do all the wonders, but it is not by doing all this that you are part of Him. It is only through faith by grace. So it is not by baptizing or any other works that you are saved. You are only saved by the works of Christ and the only way to be part of it is through faith by grace.

                              You unfortunately are disobedient to this by wanting to add works through obedience for example baptism. This will bring you to the same words of Christ of depart from me, I never knew you. Anything you add to Christ disqualify that which He had done and then you do not have Him as Saviour. All you have to know and believe is salvation is by grace through faith in Christ.

                              Comment


                              • Re: How necessary Baptism?

                                Originally posted by randyk View Post
                                Tradition--not Bible! Just find yourself anywhere that baptism is proposed for someone living in righteousness (aside from Jesus, of course).
                                Jesus commanded us to remember Him through the breaking of bread and drinking of the fruit of the vine. Do you consider Communion a "Tradition" only and not Biblical? Jesus led by example, gave us the example of a Communion... is His example of a baptism any less an example that one of His examples can be written off as a "tradition." Or do you write off both these examples, BOTH of which are commanded to be accomplished as Jesus led the way in obedience?

                                You know my position, either of these works of righteousness are NOT salvic, but BOTH are commanded.

                                Do you also write off Communion as well?
                                --
                                Slug1--out

                                ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~

                                ~John 6:62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before?~ (Jesus is Eternal - existed before becoming a man)

                                Comment

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