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  • Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Originally posted by Doug Brents View Post
    I apologize guys. I have been studying, and praying, and I believe that God has revealed to me why we have a disagreement. I have been operating under a false assumption. I have made a huge mistake here. Before I explain, let me ask you this, what was written on the Jesus' Cross?
    Matt 27:37 says, "And they put up over His head the accusation written against Him: THIS IS JESUS THE KING OF THE JEWS." but,
    Mark 15:26 says, "And the inscription of His accusation was written above: THE KING OF THE JEWS." but,
    Luke 23:38 says, " And an inscription also was written over Him in letters of Greek, Latin, and Hebrew: THIS IS THE KING OF THE JEWS." but,
    John 19:19 says, "Now Pilate wrote a title and put it on the cross. And the writing was: JESUS OF NAZARETH, THE KING OF THE JEWS."
    So which was it? Did it say Jesus' name, or not? Did it say he was from Nazareth, or not? Two of the Gospels say it was in three languages, Greek, Hebrew, and Latin; but the other two do not. But John uses a different word for Hebrew, than does Luke, so was it 4 languages? Which is right? Was the Spirit mistaken? Is one Gospel correct and three of the Gospels not? No. You have to take all four accounts, put them together, and analyze them based on context, audience, etc. You have to do this with any topic in Scripture. Before you come to any conclusion about any topic, you must take every passage that has anything to do with that topic and review them. Then you have to use them, and possibly other Scriptures that help explain parts of them, to come to a conclusion. To use any one verse as the bedrock of your "salvation worldview", is to invite great danger. What if you misinterpret some or all of that one verse? What if you choose to define a word to mean one thing, but that does not fit with other Scripture? Do you hold on to your "worldview" and edit Scripture?

    That is what I see you doing here. To take Eph 2:8 and make it the bedrock of your theology is a Grave (Hellishly Grave) mistake. Because what if "works" doesn't mean "there is nothing you can or must do to take hold of your salvation"? What if it is referring to the "works" based program of the Law of Moses?

    Let's take a look at Eph 2:8 and see what it doesn't mean. If we take it to mean that there is nothing we can or must do to be saved, then we don't have to believe. Belief is something we do. It is not something Jesus did for us on the Cross. So that makes it a work. But we can let that slide, can't we? Because there are numerous passages about our belief leading to salvation, and it is purely internal so is it really a work?
    But then we read that we must repent. This leads to a changed life, and is a turning away from our sinful past. But again, it is mostly internal, and the changed life happens after we are saved. So again we can let this one slide because its not really a work, is it?
    Then we read that we must confess Jesus' name publicly. This is getting dangerous. To publicly confess is an action we are definitely taking. We read that it must be public, so it can't just be in our hearts. But still, we are told many times to "call on Jesus' name" and we will be saved. So we can let this one slide too because it is so prominently linked to salvation, right?
    But now we read that baptism is linked to salvation in several passages. But this is clearly a "work". This is something that others will see as us trying to earn, or buy our salvation from God, and we have to draw the line here.

    Now how does that jive with Scripture? Not at all! We cannot make exceptions to what Scripture says, so if it means there is nothing we can or need to do, then THERE IS NOTHING WE CAN OR NEED TO DO! But we all agree that there are things that we must do. Too many passages say that us doing these things: HEAR, BELIEVE, REPENT, and CONFESS Jesus Name in order to be saved. But there are just as many passages that list baptism with salvation as there are some of these other acts. This doesn't make them works by which we would earn salvation.

    Look closely at Eph 2:8-9. Doesn't it sound a lot like Rom 5:8. It isn't saying that we don't have to do anything to receive salvation. It is saying that we didn't deserve Jesus dying for us. He died because of who He is, not who we are. He died because of His love, not our deeds. Eph 2 isn't saying anything about what we have to do to be saved. It is talking about the gift of God to us: the opportunity to be saved. We didn't deserve the opportunity to receive salvation. But God, being Love itself, chose to demonstrate that love by allowing us the opportunity to be saved. But that doesn't stop the necessity of us obey the commands we find in Scripture that tell us what leads to Salvation. We still have to obey ALL Scripture. Everything that Scripture says leads to salvation must be included in our salvation worldview. It is very clear that belief leads to salvation, yes. But it is equally clear that in water baptism is where we come in contact with the Blood of Christ and our sins are washed away.
    In reading your post twice... I am led to requote this part:

    and praying, and I believe that God has revealed to me why we have a disagreement.
    With this illuminated, I am going to also illuminate some scripture. This is not to say the verses you posted are wrong in any way. I pray that what I show you in scripture helps you balance your interpretation to be aligned with what the Gospel is and what scripture truly teaches.

    1 Cor 1: 10 Now I urge you, brothers and sisters, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree in what you say, that there be no divisions among you, and that you be united with the same understanding and the same conviction. 11 For it has been reported to me about you, my brothers and sisters, by members of Chloe’s people, that there is rivalry among you. 12 What I am saying is this: One of you says, “I belong to Paul,” or “I belong to Apollos,” or “I belong to Cephas,” or “I belong to Christ.” 13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in Paul’s name? 14 I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15 so that no one can say you were baptized in my name. 16 I did, in fact, baptize the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I don’t recall if I baptized anyone else. 17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel—not with eloquent wisdom, so that the cross of Christ will not be emptied of its effect.


    In reading all your post and past posts, you would be informing Paul that he is ALSO in error and that ALL those who came to believe in Christ following his preaching/evangelizing... are NOT saved in Christ except for 2 people (per this verse). We know he baptized a few others in water (jailer/family, etc). You believe ONLY those submerged in water are saved.

    All you are saying, Paul is GUILTY of failing to "save" all who believed unto Christ by NOT submerging them in water.

    Based on this theological position you press, where a person is NOT saved in Christ until a man baptizes them in water... is Paul another person who you would say... many you preached too but because you did not submerge all who believed, they are not saved??

    Paul is pointing TO, WHO saves... Christ only (the ONE Baptism). Not man, not water, not anything (works) or anyone else.
    --
    Slug1--out

    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~

    ~John 6:62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before?~ (Jesus is Eternal - existed before becoming a man)

    Comment


    • Re: How necessary Baptism?

      Doug,
      The disagreement is that you believe that baptism is what justifies, and we don't. It's as simple as that. You can believe that if you will, but there is no need to apologize if you intend to continue to believe that anyone who doesn't believe that baptism justifies is NOT justified.

      Everything else is window dressing.

      Comment


      • Re: How necessary Baptism?

        Originally posted by Doug Brents View Post
        If he didn't have faith in when "dipped" the first time, he just got wet. He wasn't washed in the Blood. So when he does come to faith, he needs to obey the Gospel at that time.
        Brother, my position is that if he got baptized without actually believing in Christ, but later truly comes to faith, there's no requirement for him to get a second water baptism.

        Comment


        • Re: How necessary Baptism?

          Originally posted by Slug1 View Post
          In reading your post twice... I am led to requote this part:

          With this illuminated, I am going to also illuminate some scripture. This is not to say the verses you posted are wrong in any way. I pray that what I show you in scripture helps you balance your interpretation to be aligned with what the Gospel is and what scripture truly teaches.

          1 Cor 1: 10 Now I urge you, brothers and sisters, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree in what you say, that there be no divisions among you, and that you be united with the same understanding and the same conviction. 11 For it has been reported to me about you, my brothers and sisters, by members of Chloe’s people, that there is rivalry among you. 12 What I am saying is this: One of you says, “I belong to Paul,” or “I belong to Apollos,” or “I belong to Cephas,” or “I belong to Christ.” 13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in Paul’s name? 14 I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15 so that no one can say you were baptized in my name. 16 I did, in fact, baptize the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I don’t recall if I baptized anyone else. 17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel—not with eloquent wisdom, so that the cross of Christ will not be emptied of its effect.


          In reading all your post and past posts, you would be informing Paul that he is ALSO in error and that ALL those who came to believe in Christ following his preaching/evangelizing... are NOT saved in Christ except for 2 people (per this verse). We know he baptized a few others in water (jailer/family, etc). You believe ONLY those submerged in water are saved.

          All you are saying, Paul is GUILTY of failing to "save" all who believed unto Christ by NOT submerging them in water.

          Based on this theological position you press, where a person is NOT saved in Christ until a man baptizes them in water... is Paul another person who you would say... many you preached too but because you did not submerge all who believed, they are not saved??

          Paul is pointing TO, WHO saves... Christ only (the ONE Baptism). Not man, not water, not anything (works) or anyone else.
          Why does Paul say he is glad that he did not baptize anyone? So that they could not say they were baptized in Paul's name, or claim superiority by saying they were baptized "by the mighty Apostle Paul" as it were. He is saying nothing about baptism not being necessary. He came to plant the Seed. Others came to water, and reap the harvest. But Paul says he was sent to plant the Seed, nothing more.

          I have pointed many times to the One who saves. Jesus! And being washed in His Blood is what cleanses our sins and washes them away. This is not "works" based. It is obedient surrender based. Many times in NT Scripture, we are told that if we are not obedient we will not be saved. We have to surrender our ego, pride, ideas, thoughts, and preconceptions to Christ and obey Him and His Word. There is no other Way. Yes, I understand your contention that Eph 2:8 says we are not saved by works. And I agree. We are not able to earn our salvation. We don't deserve it. We cannot buy it. But we MUST take hold of it by obeying His commands like Mark 16:16.

          I believe I have given this example in another thread, but I give it here again to hopefully demonstrate what Jesus expects of us in regards to salvation.
          Suppose one man has a fortune of $1,000,000,000,000,000,000 and everyone else in his town makes about $1 per week, and their living expenses are about $1 a week. Cheap cars cost $100, and luxury cars cost $1000. There is no way any of the people in this town will every be able to buy a car let alone a luxury one. So this guy goes to the town and tells them that he has purchased a $10,000 super luxury car for each and every person in town. All they have to do is go to the dealership and say that we believe in the man and his son, and pick it up, and it is theirs.
          Some questions about this:
          Do the people in the town deserve the car? No.
          Have the people in the town earned the car? No.
          Is it possible for them to ever earn the car? No.
          Is the car a gift? Yes
          Are the people earning the car by going to the dealership? No.
          Is them showing up a "work" that is worthy of "earning" the car? No.
          If they don't show up at the dealership, do they get the car? No.
          But if they believe the rich man, doesn't that mean they should get the car? No.

          So then, here is Scripture's instructions to us in terms of this analogy. We must HEAR the Good News (Gospel). The Rich Man (God) is giving away a car (salvation) to each and every person. Each person must BELIEVE that the Rich Man is willing and able to give us that car. We each must believe that He paid for the car. Now we must REPENT (turn from the direction we were headed) and go to the place He directed us. Once we get to the dealership (BAPTISM) we must CONFESS our belief in His Son. Then the dealership will give us the keys to our car and we can drive it away.

          Now is any of that action taken on the part of the individuals of the town worth the $10,000 the man paid for each car? Is publicly getting dunked in water after you have repented of your sins and confessed Jesus' Name worthy of His Blood? Does that "earn" your salvation? NO! But is it commanded by the LORD of all creation? YES!

          This is very similar to the story of Naaman that I have referenced before. Naaman expected to be told to go do some great thing to earn cleansing from his disease. But he was told to dip in water. He was not cleansed until he dipped the full number of times he was commanded. Once didn't do it, it took the full 7 dips to cleanse him. Our salvation from sin is the same way. We have to surrender to God and obey completely.

          Look at it from Satan's perspective. He know Scripture. He knows God. He knows God's commands almost as well as God does. So he knows that we have to believe, but he is not afraid of that because he knows simple belief doesn't save us. He doesn't care if we repent of our sins, because he knows that once we sin one time we are cut off from God and only Jesus' Blood will bring us back into relationship with Him. So he doesn't fear us repenting. Confessing our belief in Jesus doesn't scare him either, because he believes too. The only thing that scares Satan is baptism because he knows that is the last "straw". That is the point at which he looses his control over us and we belong to God, because that is when the Blood is applied to our sins. That is why he doesn't resist our belief, or our repentance, or our confession, but he does resist our baptism, because he fears it so.

          Originally posted by Pbminimum View Post
          Doug,
          The disagreement is that you believe that baptism is what justifies, and we don't. It's as simple as that. You can believe that if you will, but there is no need to apologize if you intend to continue to believe that anyone who doesn't believe that baptism justifies is NOT justified.

          Everything else is window dressing.
          I don't believe that baptism justifies. I believe that the Blood of Christ justifies in Baptism, just as Scripture teaches.

          Originally posted by Slug1 View Post
          In reading your post twice... I am led to requote this part:

          With this illuminated, I am going to also illuminate some scripture. This is not to say the verses you posted are wrong in any way. I pray that what I show you in scripture helps you balance your interpretation to be aligned with what the Gospel is and what scripture truly teaches.

          1 Cor 1: 10 Now I urge you, brothers and sisters, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree in what you say, that there be no divisions among you, and that you be united with the same understanding and the same conviction. 11 For it has been reported to me about you, my brothers and sisters, by members of Chloe’s people, that there is rivalry among you. 12 What I am saying is this: One of you says, “I belong to Paul,” or “I belong to Apollos,” or “I belong to Cephas,” or “I belong to Christ.” 13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in Paul’s name? 14 I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15 so that no one can say you were baptized in my name. 16 I did, in fact, baptize the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I don’t recall if I baptized anyone else. 17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel—not with eloquent wisdom, so that the cross of Christ will not be emptied of its effect.


          In reading all your post and past posts, you would be informing Paul that he is ALSO in error and that ALL those who came to believe in Christ following his preaching/evangelizing... are NOT saved in Christ except for 2 people (per this verse). We know he baptized a few others in water (jailer/family, etc). You believe ONLY those submerged in water are saved.

          All you are saying, Paul is GUILTY of failing to "save" all who believed unto Christ by NOT submerging them in water.

          Based on this theological position you press, where a person is NOT saved in Christ until a man baptizes them in water... is Paul another person who you would say... many you preached too but because you did not submerge all who believed, they are not saved??

          Paul is pointing TO, WHO saves... Christ only (the ONE Baptism). Not man, not water, not anything (works) or anyone else.
          Why does Paul say he is glad that he did not baptize anyone? So that they could not say they were baptized in Paul's name, or claim superiority by saying they were baptized "by the mighty Apostle Paul" as it were. He is saying nothing about baptism not being necessary. He came to plant the Seed. Others came to water, and reap the harvest. But Paul says he was sent to plant the Seed, nothing more.

          I have pointed many times to the One who saves. Jesus! And being washed in His Blood is what cleanses our sins and washes them away. This is not "works" based. It is obedient surrender based. Many times in NT Scripture, we are told that if we are not obedient we will not be saved. We have to surrender our ego, pride, ideas, thoughts, and preconceptions to Christ and obey Him and His Word. There is no other Way. Yes, I understand your contention that Eph 2:8 says we are not saved by works. And I agree. We are not able to earn our salvation. We don't deserve it. We cannot buy it. But we MUST take hold of it by obeying His commands like Mark 16:16.

          I believe I have given this example in another thread, but I give it here again to hopefully demonstrate what Jesus expects of us in regards to salvation.
          Suppose one man has a fortune of $1,000,000,000,000,000,000 and everyone else in his town makes about $1 per week, and their living expenses are about $1 a week. Cheap cars cost $100, and luxury cars cost $1000. There is no way any of the people in this town will every be able to buy a car let alone a luxury one. So this guy goes to the town and tells them that he has purchased a $10,000 super luxury car for each and every person in town. All they have to do is go to the dealership and say that we believe in the man and his son, and pick it up, and it is theirs.
          Some questions about this:
          Do the people in the town deserve the car? No.
          Have the people in the town earned the car? No.
          Is it possible for them to ever earn the car? No.
          Is the car a gift? Yes
          Are the people earning the car by going to the dealership? No.
          Is them showing up a "work" that is worthy of "earning" the car? No.
          If they don't show up at the dealership, do they get the car? No.
          But if they believe the rich man, doesn't that mean they should get the car? No.

          So then, here is Scripture's instructions to us in terms of this analogy. We must HEAR the Good News (Gospel). The Rich Man (God) is giving away a car (salvation) to each and every person. Each person must BELIEVE that the Rich Man is willing and able to give us that car. We each must believe that He paid for the car. Now we must REPENT (turn from the direction we were headed) and go to the place He directed us. Once we get to the dealership (BAPTISM) we must CONFESS our belief in His Son. Then the dealership will give us the keys to our car and we can drive it away.

          Now is any of that action taken on the part of the individuals of the town worth the $10,000 the man paid for each car? Is publicly getting dunked in water after you have repented of your sins and confessed Jesus' Name worthy of His Blood? Does that "earn" your salvation? NO! But is it commanded by the LORD of all creation? YES!

          This is very similar to the story of Naaman that I have referenced before. Naaman expected to be told to go do some great thing to earn cleansing from his disease. But he was told to dip in water. He was not cleansed until he dipped the full number of times he was commanded. Once didn't do it, it took the full 7 dips to cleanse him. Our salvation from sin is the same way. We have to surrender to God and obey completely.

          Look at it from Satan's perspective. He know Scripture. He knows God. He knows God's commands almost as well as God does. So he knows that we have to believe, but he is not afraid of that because he knows simple belief doesn't save us. He doesn't care if we repent of our sins, because he knows that once we sin one time we are cut off from God and only Jesus' Blood will bring us back into relationship with Him. So he doesn't fear us repenting. Confessing our belief in Jesus doesn't scare him either, because he believes too. The only thing that scares Satan is baptism because he knows that is the last "straw". That is the point at which he looses his control over us and we belong to God, because that is when the Blood is applied to our sins. That is why he doesn't resist our belief, or our repentance, or our confession, but he does resist our baptism, because he fears it so.

          Originally posted by Pbminimum View Post
          Doug,
          The disagreement is that you believe that baptism is what justifies, and we don't. It's as simple as that. You can believe that if you will, but there is no need to apologize if you intend to continue to believe that anyone who doesn't believe that baptism justifies is NOT justified.

          Everything else is window dressing.
          I don't believe that baptism justifies. I believe that the Blood of Christ justifies in Baptism, just as Scripture teaches.

          Comment


          • Re: How necessary Baptism?

            Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
            Brother, my position is that if he got baptized without actually believing in Christ, but later truly comes to faith, there's no requirement for him to get a second water baptism.
            Then your position is wrong. If he got wet but didn't have faith, then the Blood was not poured over him. He just got wet. But when he does come to faith, and believes in Jesus, and confesses His name, then he can be baptized and his sins will be washed way at that point. The heart condition of the person going into the water determines the importance of the event. The water is just water, there is no such thing as "holy" water. There is no power in the water. The power is in the Blood, and the Blood is not there if the heart of the recipient of baptism is not right. Just as Philip told the Ethiopian Eunuch, "If you believe with all your heart, you may." If you don't believe, it does you no good.

            Comment


            • Re: How necessary Baptism?

              I don't believe that baptism justifies. I believe that the Blood of Christ justifies in Baptism, just as Scripture teaches.
              So it's the blood and....

              Comment


              • Re: How necessary Baptism?

                Originally posted by Doug Brents View Post
                I don't believe that baptism justifies. I believe that the Blood of Christ justifies in Baptism, just as Scripture teaches.
                Just as scripture teaches??

                What is the "One" baptism that scripture refers to as the one that makes a person born-again, saves, redeems, justifies?

                Is it the one that Jesus does, or the one that man does?
                --
                Slug1--out

                ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~

                ~John 6:62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before?~ (Jesus is Eternal - existed before becoming a man)

                Comment


                • Re: How necessary Baptism?

                  Originally posted by Slug1 View Post
                  Just as scripture teaches??

                  What is the "One" baptism that scripture refers to as the one that makes a person born-again, saves, redeems, justifies?

                  Is it the one that Jesus does, or the one that man does?
                  The one baptism is water immersion in Jesus' Name. The "baptism of the Holy Spirit and fire" is exemplified only twice in Scripture, Pentecost and Cornelius, so that cannot be it. The baptism of John was still OT, so it cannot be it. The only baptism that is exemplified over and over in NT Scripture is the baptism in water in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

                  Originally posted by Slug1 View Post
                  Just as scripture teaches??

                  What is the "One" baptism that scripture refers to as the one that makes a person born-again, saves, redeems, justifies?

                  Is it the one that Jesus does, or the one that man does?
                  The one baptism is water immersion in Jesus' Name. The "baptism of the Holy Spirit and fire" is exemplified only twice in Scripture, Pentecost and Cornelius, so that cannot be it. The baptism of John was still OT, so it cannot be it. The only baptism that is exemplified over and over in NT Scripture is the baptism in water in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

                  Comment


                  • Re: How necessary Baptism?

                    Originally posted by Doug Brents View Post
                    The one baptism is water immersion in Jesus' Name. The "baptism of the Holy Spirit and fire" is exemplified only twice in Scripture, Pentecost and Cornelius, so that cannot be it. The baptism of John was still OT, so it cannot be it. The only baptism that is exemplified over and over in NT Scripture is the baptism in water in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
                    Well, we have to determine the difference between a physical baptism and a spiritual baptism.

                    Can you do me a favor and list the verses about the "physical" baptism that man does:

                    Can you then, list the verses about the "spiritual" baptism that Jesus does:
                    --
                    Slug1--out

                    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~

                    ~John 6:62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before?~ (Jesus is Eternal - existed before becoming a man)

                    Comment


                    • Re: How necessary Baptism?

                      Originally posted by Doug Brents View Post
                      The one baptism is water immersion in Jesus' Name. The "baptism of the Holy Spirit and fire" is exemplified only twice in Scripture, Pentecost and Cornelius, so that cannot be it. The baptism of John was still OT, so it cannot be it. The only baptism that is exemplified over and over in NT Scripture is the baptism in water in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
                      Well, we have to determine the difference between a physical baptism and a spiritual baptism.

                      Can you do me a favor and list the verses about the "physical" baptism that man does:

                      Can you then, list the verses about the "spiritual" baptism that Jesus does:
                      --
                      Slug1--out

                      ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~

                      ~John 6:62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before?~ (Jesus is Eternal - existed before becoming a man)

                      Comment


                      • Re: How necessary Baptism?

                        I had always believed that baptism was a way to identify with the death burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. An outward sign of an inward change. I got saved at a young age and was baptized at the age of 11. I don't remember it being my choice. I was living in a foster home and was forced to do it.

                        I was very afraid. I had heard of baptism and had seen it done before, but I believe it should have been my choice. At the age of 12, I started reading the bible on my own and by 13, I thought I knew enough to teach

                        But I had not changed in any way. In fact, I lived as someone who had never been saved. Then at 26, I gave my life to the Lord as an adult. The first thing I did was study and decide for myself that I believed everything I had learned as a child.
                        At this point, my life slowly began to change, and I went back to church.

                        In the back of my mind I had thought about being baptized again, but wasn't sure it was necessary. Fast forward to earlier this year, I was casually reading a Church of Christ website where they went on and on about needing to be baptized in order to be saved.

                        Since I had been baptized as a child, I had never really focused on those scripture, but I started immediately after that. I started to panic. I spoke to my pastor about it and he assured me it is symbolic.

                        This was another lesson for me about being real careful what I expose myself to. During this time, I realized the church of Christ and a few others are as obsessed with baptism as the Seventh Day Adventist are with the Sabbath day.

                        I had always believed that baptism was a way to identify with the death burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. An outward sign of an inward change. I got saved at a young age and was baptized at the age of 11. I don't remember it being my choice. I was living in a foster home and was forced to do it.

                        I was very afraid. I had heard of baptism and had seen it done before, but I believe it should have been my choice. At the age of 12, I started reading the bible on my own and by 13, I thought I knew enough to teach

                        But I had not changed in any way. In fact, I lived as someone who had never been saved. Then at 26, I gave my life to the Lord as an adult. The first thing I did was study and decide for myself that I believed everything I had learned as a child.
                        At this point, my life slowly began to change, and I went back to church.

                        In the back of my mind I had thought about being baptized again, but wasn't sure it was necessary. Fast forward to earlier this year, I was casually reading a Church of Christ website where they went on and on about needing to be baptized in order to be saved.

                        Since I had been baptized as a child, I had never really focused on those scripture, but I started immediately after that. I started to panic. I spoke to my pastor about it and he assured me it is symbolic.

                        This was another lesson for me about being real careful what I expose myself to. During this time, I realized the church of Christ and a few others are as obsessed with baptism as the Seventh Day Adventist are with the Sabbath day.

                        Comment


                        • Re: How necessary Baptism?

                          Originally posted by Slug1 View Post
                          Well, we have to determine the difference between a physical baptism and a spiritual baptism.

                          Can you do me a favor and list the verses about the "physical" baptism that man does:

                          Can you then, list the verses about the "spiritual" baptism that Jesus does:
                          Let's see:
                          Physical baptism:
                          Col 2:11-12
                          Rom 6:3-7
                          1 Pet 3:21
                          Gal 3:27
                          Mark 16:16
                          Matt 28:19-20
                          1 Cor 12:13
                          John 3:5
                          Acts 2:38-41
                          Acts 8:12-13
                          Acts 8:35-39
                          Acts 10:47-48
                          Acts 16:15
                          Acts 16:33
                          Acts 19:5-6
                          Acts 22:16
                          Titus 3:5
                          Eph 4:5
                          Eph 2:8-9

                          Spiritual baptism:
                          Col 2:11-12
                          Rom 6:3-7
                          1 Cor 12:13
                          Acts 19:5-6
                          Titus 3:5
                          John 3:5
                          Eph 2:8-9

                          Neither of these is an exhaustive list, but it is what I could find in a hurry. I would invite any additional passages that you would like to include in the list. Please note that each and every one of the physical baptisms listed include the spiritual washing by inference through Col 2, Rom 6, and other passages.

                          Originally posted by Slug1 View Post
                          Well, we have to determine the difference between a physical baptism and a spiritual baptism.

                          Can you do me a favor and list the verses about the "physical" baptism that man does:

                          Can you then, list the verses about the "spiritual" baptism that Jesus does:
                          Let's see:
                          Physical baptism:
                          Col 2:11-12
                          Rom 6:3-7
                          1 Pet 3:21
                          Gal 3:27
                          Mark 16:16
                          Matt 28:19-20
                          1 Cor 12:13
                          John 3:5
                          Acts 2:38-41
                          Acts 8:12-13
                          Acts 8:35-39
                          Acts 10:47-48
                          Acts 16:15
                          Acts 16:33
                          Acts 19:5-6
                          Acts 22:16
                          Titus 3:5
                          Eph 4:5
                          Eph 2:8-9

                          Spiritual baptism:
                          Col 2:11-12
                          Rom 6:3-7
                          1 Cor 12:13
                          Acts 19:5-6
                          Titus 3:5
                          John 3:5
                          Eph 2:8-9

                          Neither of these is an exhaustive list, but it is what I could find in a hurry. I would invite any additional passages that you would like to include in the list. Please note that each and every one of the physical baptisms listed include the spiritual washing by inference through Col 2, Rom 6, and other passages.

                          Comment


                          • Re: How necessary Baptism?

                            Originally posted by DeeDee50 View Post

                            I had always believed that baptism was a way to identify with the death burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. An outward sign of an inward change. I got saved at a young age and was baptized at the age of 11. I don't remember it being my choice. I was living in a foster home and was forced to do it.

                            I was very afraid. I had heard of baptism and had seen it done before, but I believe it should have been my choice. At the age of 12, I started reading the bible on my own and by 13, I thought I knew enough to teach

                            But I had not changed in any way. In fact, I lived as someone who had never been saved. Then at 26, I gave my life to the Lord as an adult. The first thing I did was study and decide for myself that I believed everything I had learned as a child.
                            At this point, my life slowly began to change, and I went back to church.

                            In the back of my mind I had thought about being baptized again, but wasn't sure it was necessary. Fast forward to earlier this year, I was casually reading a Church of Christ website where they went on and on about needing to be baptized in order to be saved.

                            Since I had been baptized as a child, I had never really focused on those scripture, but I started immediately after that. I started to panic. I spoke to my pastor about it and he assured me it is symbolic.

                            This was another lesson for me about being real careful what I expose myself to. During this time, I realized the church of Christ and a few others are as obsessed with baptism as the Seventh Day Adventist are with the Sabbath day.
                            The first thing I did after being saved, once the Holy Spirit started talking with me, was to make plans for my baptism. I asked God to give me the gift of tongues. He said He would if I did it His way.

                            I believed I was saved from the time God started talking to me. I was sealed by the HS at that time, even though I didn’t realize it.

                            The HS guided me all the way through this process. I didn't think I had any options other than to obey.

                            My journey led me through three different baptisms. By the time I finished being rebaptized, I was speaking in tongues as God had promised.

                            My conclusion: Baptism is pretty important. I rest my case.
                            John 15:17 "These things I command you, that ye love one another."

                            Comment


                            • Re: How necessary Baptism?

                              Originally posted by DeeDee50 View Post
                              I had always believed that baptism was a way to identify with the death burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. An outward sign of an inward change. I got saved at a young age and was baptized at the age of 11. I don't remember it being my choice. I was living in a foster home and was forced to do it.

                              I was very afraid. I had heard of baptism and had seen it done before, but I believe it should have been my choice. At the age of 12, I started reading the bible on my own and by 13, I thought I knew enough to teach

                              But I had not changed in any way. In fact, I lived as someone who had never been saved. Then at 26, I gave my life to the Lord as an adult. The first thing I did was study and decide for myself that I believed everything I had learned as a child.
                              At this point, my life slowly began to change, and I went back to church.

                              In the back of my mind I had thought about being baptized again, but wasn't sure it was necessary. Fast forward to earlier this year, I was casually reading a Church of Christ website where they went on and on about needing to be baptized in order to be saved.

                              Since I had been baptized as a child, I had never really focused on those scripture, but I started immediately after that. I started to panic. I spoke to my pastor about it and he assured me it is symbolic.

                              This was another lesson for me about being real careful what I expose myself to. During this time, I realized the church of Christ and a few others are as obsessed with baptism as the Seventh Day Adventist are with the Sabbath day.
                              As committed Christians we can have very sensitive consciences. So we should be careful when we claim that certain activities, traditions, and rituals *must* be a part of our Christian lives! Legalism can bring us into false condemnation, into self-condemnation.

                              We have been saved by the love of Christ. He freely gave his spirit to us, as a sign that he finished all the work of our redemption.

                              If we sin at all, it is when we defile the pure spirit he has given us--not because we failed to have Communion or Water Baptism! Yes, these things are symbolic rituals, designed to get us to focus on the Real Deal, who is "Christ in us, the hope of glory." Let us focus on *his Spirit,* and not on the external traditions of our Faith! Let us focus in *his Love,* and not on physical routines that merely symbolize our spiritual conformity to Christ.

                              Regardless, Water Baptism was designed for the beginning convert, and not for mature Christians who later realized they had failed to get Water Baptized! If we make the transition from Pagan to Christian, we won't need Water Baptism to make the "good confession." We will have already done so simply by proving our conversion over time.

                              Comment


                              • Re: How necessary Baptism?

                                Originally posted by Doug Brents View Post
                                Then your position is wrong. If he got wet but didn't have faith, then the Blood was not poured over him. He just got wet. But when he does come to faith, and believes in Jesus, and confesses His name, then he can be baptized and his sins will be washed way at that point. The heart condition of the person going into the water determines the importance of the event. The water is just water, there is no such thing as "holy" water. There is no power in the water. The power is in the Blood, and the Blood is not there if the heart of the recipient of baptism is not right. Just as Philip told the Ethiopian Eunuch, "If you believe with all your heart, you may." If you don't believe, it does you no good.
                                Hahaha
                                Care to cite where it is stated in scripture that "the blood" is poured on a believer when he undertakes water baptism? Do you see how you read the Bible without actually taking in what it says but instead, run with what you think it says?

                                Comment

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