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  • Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Originally posted by Slug1 View Post
    You place the work of salvation into the hands of mankind, so I have to disagree based on what scripture reveals. I encourage you to read through the words that Dan just posted and also, the study of Acts 22.

    When a man repents, Jesus washes them clean, redeems them. Then they are allowed to be water baptized as a declaration of faith, as this good work represents the work that Jesus completed.
    I am in no way putting the work of salvation into the hands of man. Repeatedly I have said that the work of salvation is done by the Spirit. Only He can forgive sin, but Scripture says He doesn't do that until we have obeyed the Gospel. That obedience is spelled out in Scripture as believing in Jesus, confessing His Name, repenting of our sins, and being baptized into His Name. None of this takes the work of salvation from God. Rom 6 and Col 2 are both very clear that the work of salvation is God's, but both are equally clear as to when He does that work: when we are buried with Jesus in baptism to arise to new life as we come out of the water.

    Originally posted by Slug1 View Post
    You place the work of salvation into the hands of mankind, so I have to disagree based on what scripture reveals. I encourage you to read through the words that Dan just posted and also, the study of Acts 22.

    When a man repents, Jesus washes them clean, redeems them. Then they are allowed to be water baptized as a declaration of faith, as this good work represents the work that Jesus completed.
    I am in no way putting the work of salvation into the hands of man. Repeatedly I have said that the work of salvation is done by the Spirit. Only He can forgive sin, but Scripture says He doesn't do that until we have obeyed the Gospel. That obedience is spelled out in Scripture as believing in Jesus, confessing His Name, repenting of our sins, and being baptized into His Name. None of this takes the work of salvation from God. Rom 6 and Col 2 are both very clear that the work of salvation is God's, but both are equally clear as to when He does that work: when we are buried with Jesus in baptism to arise to new life as we come out of the water.

    Comment


    • Re: How necessary Baptism?

      Originally posted by Doug Brents View Post
      I am in no way putting the work of salvation into the hands of man. Repeatedly I have said that the work of salvation is done by the Spirit. Only He can forgive sin, but Scripture says He doesn't do that until we have obeyed the Gospel. That obedience is spelled out in Scripture as believing in Jesus, confessing His Name, repenting of our sins, and being baptized into His Name. None of this takes the work of salvation from God. Rom 6 and Col 2 are both very clear that the work of salvation is God's, but both are equally clear as to when He does that work: when we are buried with Jesus in baptism to arise to new life as we come out of the water.
      Cornelius was filled with the Holy Spirit, speaking in tongues, and saved before he was baptized. That's an example we can look to and know from scripture.

      Then there's Saul, who was renamed Paul. God heard his prayers and spoke to him in a vision before he was baptized. And then God spoke to Ananias to go and lay hands on him saying "He is a chosen instrument of mine..." Notice that "chosen" is past tense. He was already chosen. In verse 17, Ananias called him "brother" recognizing his salvation. Ananias saw to it that Paul was healed and baptized.
      Matt 9:13
      13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
      NASU

      Comment


      • Re: How necessary Baptism?

        Originally posted by Doug Brents View Post
        Where do you get that "for the remission of sins" does not refer back to the preceding phrases? There is nothing in the language, original or translation, that indicates this is restrictive to the first half of the "and" conjunction. There is nothing parenthetical about Acts 2:38.
        As I already explained, the clause "each one of you be baptized" is parenthetical. This is exactly what Acts 3:19 teaches except that Peter omits the parenthesis.

        There is nothing parenthetical about Jesus' command in Mark 16:16 either. "...He who believes and is baptized will be saved."
        Mark 16:16 - He who believes and is baptized will be saved (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) but he who does not believe will be condemned. The omission of baptized with "does not believe" shows that Jesus does not make baptism absolutely essential to salvation. Condemnation rests on unbelief, not on a lack of baptism. So salvation rests on belief. NOWHERE does the Bible say "baptized or condemned."

        If water baptism is absolutely required for salvation, then why did Jesus not mention it in the following verses? (3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26). What is the ONE requirement that Jesus mentions 9 different times in each of these complete statements? *BELIEVES. *What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics.

        *John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

        Yes, Acts 3:19 says, "Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out,..., but that does not exclude baptism.
        It certainly does exclude baptism.

        It merely does not mention baptism in this passage, just as Eph 2 and Col 2 are parallel passages, but Eph leaves out the mention of baptism while Col includes it.
        You need to properly harmonize scripture with scripture in order to reach the proper conclusion on doctrine instead of distorting and perverting passages of scripture in an effort to "patch together" a works based false gospel.

        Again, Cornelius and his family were not saved by the Spirit coming on them in fire and giving them tongues and other gifts. Just as is stated in Acts 11:17, and is reiterated in Acts 15:8, the message was not that salvation had come to that household, but that salvation was being offered to all Gentiles along with the Jews.
        Cornelius and his family were saved when they believed on the Lord Jesus Christ and received the gift of the Holy Spirit PRIOR TO RECEIVING WATER BAPTISM. (Acts 10:43-47; 11:17,18) Hearts are purified by faith and not by water baptism. (Acts 15:9)

        To all who obey the Gospel.
        We obey the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel. Romans 10:16 - But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, ďLord, who has believed our report?Ē

        If baptism is just an emblem of the washing away of sins, then Jesus wouldn't have commanded that those who are baptized will be saved. He would have told the Apostles that everyone who believes will be saved, and then you can baptize them later. But that is not what He commanded, is it?
        Jesus stated that those who believe will be saved (with no mention of baptism) multiple times (John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26) Baptism would have no meaning without Christís death, burial and resurrection, but Christís death, burial and resurrection would still have meaning, even if there were no baptism. In other words, Christís death is the substance and baptism is the sign/symbol/picture. Without the substance there would be no sign/symbol/picture. Baptism put it in it's proper place, subsequent to salvation through faith in Christ as all rites and works must be. Baptism is for believers, and believers are already saved, for the Bible says we are saved by grace through faith, not by rites or religious works, or good works. This does not remove good works/acts of obedience (including water baptism) from the Christian life, it just puts them in their proper place, subsequent to regeneration and salvation.

        I will say again, that the water does not wash away our sins. God does that when our obedient heart is buried with Christ in the water of baptism, and we arise from the water as a new creature. Col 2:12 says, "...buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him...". We are buried with Him in baptism, and are raised with Him in baptism by the working of the Spirit.
        Our sins are washed away by the blood of Christ the moment that we believe prior to receiving water baptism. (Acts 10:43; Romans 3:24-28) In regards to Colossians 2:12, you are confusing the picture (water baptism) with the reality (Spirit baptism).

        My point about Saul in Acts 22 is that all of you guys are saying that we are saved when we believe, before we do anything else (except maybe repent and confess Jesus' Name). But that cannot be the case because Saul was still in sin long after he believed. He believed on the road, when the light blinded him. But he was still in sin three days later. It doesn't take that long for the Spirit to forgive sin, does it? Saul had not been forgiven yet, even though he believed who Jesus was. He still needed to obey. He still needed to follow the command of God through the lips of Ananias to, "Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord." Is this just parenthetical too? Does "wash away your sins" only refer to "arise"? Were his sins washed away when he stood up, and then he was baptized to show that they had been washed away? No!
        Do you attend the church of Christ? In regards to Acts 22:16, as Greek scholar AT Robertson points out, baptism here pictures the washing away of sins by the blood of Christ, but it does not literally wash away our sins, contrary to your conclusion. In Acts 10:43, receiving remission of sins is connected with "believes in Him" and not with baptism (Acts 10:43-47). In Acts 9, Jesus told Ananias that Paul "is a chosen vessel unto Me" (v. 15), although the apostle had not yet been baptized. Before Paul was baptized, Christ had already commissioned him to "bear (His) name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel" (Acts 9:15); such a commission is not Godís portion for one still lost and under wrath. Before Paulís baptism, Christ had set him aside as one who would "suffer for His nameís sake" (9:16). Can one who is a child of the devil, as all the lost are (Ephesians 2:1-3, John 8:44), really suffer for Christís sake? NO. Paul had already believed in Christ when Ananias came to pray for him to receive his sight (Acts 9:17). It also should be noted that Paul at the time when Ananias prayed for him to receive his sight, he was filled with the Holy Spirit (Acts 9:17)--this was before he was water baptized (Acts 9:18). Verse 17 connects his being filled with the Spirit with the receiving of his sight. We know that he received his sight prior to his baptism. *No Scripture is to be interpreted in isolation from the totality of Scripture. *Practically speaking, a singular and obscure verse is to be subservient to to multiple and clear verses, and not vice versa.

        When harmonizing the Gospels, you cannot go into it with a preconception or expectation of what you believe, and then work the words around to fit your idea. You have to look at all Scripture with an open heart and let It reveal Itself. If you have any preconceptions, you will twist and bend Scripture to fit your preconception. No Scripture trumps other Scripture. If you take one passage and make it more important than other passages, say Eph 2:8-9, then you must twist other scriptures to fit your interpretation of that one passage. If you do so, you will condemn not only yourself, but everyone to whom you teach that falsehood.
        As I said before, we must properly harmonize scripture with scripture in order to reach the proper conclusion on doctrine instead of distorting and perverting passages of scripture in an effort to "patch together" a works based false gospel. Works salvation is NO SALVATION AT ALL. Man is saved by grace through faith, NOT WORKS. To believe anything else is to miss salvation.

        *Who did Jesus Christ say would be condemned? John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

        Originally posted by Brother Mark View Post
        Cornelius was filled with the Holy Spirit, speaking in tongues, and saved before he was baptized. That's an example we can look to and know from scripture.

        Then there's Saul, who was renamed Paul. God heard his prayers and spoke to him in a vision before he was baptized. And then God spoke to Ananias to go and lay hands on him saying "He is a chosen instrument of mine..." Notice that "chosen" is past tense. He was already chosen. In verse 17, Ananias called him "brother" recognizing his salvation. Ananias saw to it that Paul was healed and baptized.
        Amen brother! Well said.
        Galatians 6:14 - But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.

        Comment


        • Re: How necessary Baptism?

          Originally Posted by Doug Brents

          I am in no way putting the work of salvation into the hands of man. Repeatedly I have said that the work of salvation is done by the Spirit. Only He can forgive sin, but Scripture says He doesn't do that until we have obeyed the Gospel. That obedience is spelled out in Scripture as believing in Jesus, confessing His Name, repenting of our sins, and being baptized into His Name.





          The Gospel says to believe, to be saved. The baptism is all about following through in obedience per teaching, AFTER one is saved.

          Here is something in the Bible:

          Romans 3:22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,25 whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins.
          26 It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

          See the parts underlined, 24 and 25a? If what you say is true, then 24-25a is an error because by what you are saying, Christ's blood as a propitiation ISN'T received by faith (when a person believes). You are saying that the blood is a propitiation only AFTER a man baptizes a believer.

          So, either you are correct and the verse is misleading or the verse is correct and you are misled
          Last edited by Slug1; Oct 5 2019, 05:04 AM.
          --
          Slug1--out

          ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~

          ~John 6:62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before?~ (Jesus is Eternal - existed before becoming a man)

          Comment


          • Re: How necessary Baptism?

            Originally posted by Pbminimum View Post
            I knew what God laid on my heart to do , and that was to be baptized as a follower of Christ. I did, and looking back, I'm so glad I did. I would hate for anyone to be robbed of identifying with Christ AS A BELIEVER, due to pride, ignorance, confusion, or fear.
            Why would a saved, born again believer be "proud, ignorant and afraid" of baptism? Never heard of such before.

            Comment


            • Re: How necessary Baptism?

              Originally posted by Doug Brents View Post
              Then please tell me what you think those passages are referring to, if not baptism in context with salvation.

              Then please tell me what you think those passages are referring to, if not baptism in context with salvation.
              See, your question nails the essence of baptism! But where does it say that "blood" is poured on the believer at the time of water baptism, that's my disagreement? Scripture makes it clear that water baptism is different from the Baptism of the Holy Spirit - none of the two has blood poured on the believer.

              Comment


              • Re: How necessary Baptism?

                Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
                Why would a saved, born again believer be "proud, ignorant and afraid" of baptism? Never heard of such before.
                I guess I'm just not as holy as you bro. In my experience ( and it was mine ) RELIGION had made a box that I was afraid to step out of. Because I was convicted about 10 years after I had genuinely surrendered my heart to Christ about being baptized, I there was an amount of my own pride that tried to reason within myself because "what would everyone think ?" . During those 10 years I was an ordained deacon, and serving in the church - leading people to Christ and making disciples. Ignorance of biblical baptism - an outward sign of an inward change - had never really been something I thought was important, until it was.

                When I was baptized my flesh wanted to tell everyone that I had been a Christian for years and that my baptism had been delayed for whatever reason. That was quickly changed when I realized I just needed to be obedient and let people think what they would. After I was baptized , I had a friend who made a profession of faith in Christ who had been a church member for years. His words to me were ( paraphrasing here) " God had been dealing with me about being saved for a long time, but when I saw that you were being baptized I knew it was time to make a change."

                If the bible belt had a buckle , that's where I live. Religion, and fear of what others think is a real thing Triv. Whether you want to understand it or not doesn't change that. I am convinced that there are many in the church who were genuinely saved as adults after being baptized as a child - that' me - and need to follow through in believers baptism. How do we know when we are genuinely saved ? When our lives genuinely change.

                I'd also add that after I was baptized , God began to use me in a much more effective way than before. It's hard to explain it, but that's my story. NO one can convince me otherwise whether they agree or not.

                Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
                Why would a saved, born again believer be "proud, ignorant and afraid" of baptism? Never heard of such before.
                I guess I'm just not as holy as you bro. In my experience ( and it was mine ) RELIGION had made a box that I was afraid to step out of. Because I was convicted about 10 years after I had genuinely surrendered my heart to Christ about being baptized, I there was an amount of my own pride that tried to reason within myself because "what would everyone think ?" . During those 10 years I was an ordained deacon, and serving in the church - leading people to Christ and making disciples. Ignorance of biblical baptism - an outward sign of an inward change - had never really been something I thought was important, until it was.

                When I was baptized my flesh wanted to tell everyone that I had been a Christian for years and that my baptism had been delayed for whatever reason. That was quickly changed when I realized I just needed to be obedient and let people think what they would. After I was baptized , I had a friend who made a profession of faith in Christ who had been a church member for years. His words to me were ( paraphrasing here) " God had been dealing with me about being saved for a long time, but when I saw that you were being baptized I knew it was time to make a change."

                If the bible belt had a buckle , that's where I live. Religion, and fear of what others think is a real thing Triv. Whether you want to understand it or not doesn't change that. I am convinced that there are many in the church who were genuinely saved as adults after being baptized as a child - that' me - and need to follow through in believers baptism. How do we know when we are genuinely saved ? When our lives genuinely change.

                I'd also add that after I was baptized , God began to use me in a much more effective way than before. It's hard to explain it, but that's my story. NO one can convince me otherwise whether they agree or not.

                Comment


                • Re: How necessary Baptism?

                  Originally posted by Pbminimum View Post
                  I guess I'm just not as holy as you bro. In my experience (and it was mine) RELIGION had made a box that I was afraid to step out of. Because I was convicted about 10 years after I had genuinely surrendered my heart to Christ about being baptized, I there was an amount of my own pride that tried to reason within myself because "what would everyone think ?". During those 10 years I was an ordained deacon, and serving in the church - leading people to Christ and making disciples. Ignorance of biblical baptism - an outward sign of an inward change - had never really been something I thought was important, until it was.

                  When I was baptized my flesh wanted to tell everyone that I had been a Christian for years and that my baptism had been delayed for whatever reason. That was quickly changed when I realized I just needed to be obedient and let people think what they would. After I was baptized , I had a friend who made a profession of faith in Christ who had been a church member for years. His words to me were ( paraphrasing here) " God had been dealing with me about being saved for a long time, but when I saw that you were being baptized I knew it was time to make a change."

                  If the bible belt had a buckle, that's where I live. Religion and fear of what others think is a real thing Triv. Whether you want to understand it or not doesn't change that. I am convinced that there are many in the church who were genuinely saved as adults after being baptized as a child - that' me - and need to follow through in believers baptism. How do we know when we are genuinely saved? When our lives genuinely change.

                  I'd also add that after I was baptized, God began to use me in a much more effective way than before. It's hard to explain it, but that's my story. NO one can convince me otherwise whether they agree or not.
                  "Why would a saved, born again believer be "proud, ignorant and afraid" of baptism? Never heard of such before."

                  How does the above question make me "holier than you"?

                  The fact you made an unfounded assumption about an unambiguous question I asked makes it impossible for me to continue...
                  Enjoy your day?

                  Comment


                  • Re: How necessary Baptism?

                    Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
                    "Why would a saved, born again believer be "proud, ignorant and afraid" of baptism? Never heard of such before."

                    How does the above question make me "holier than you"?

                    The fact you made an unfounded assumption about an unambiguous question I asked makes it impossible for me to continue...
                    Enjoy your day?
                    Probably just a knee jerk from past experiences. And if you've "never heard of such" before, then I'm not sure how else to take it ? Is this really so far out there that you've never heard of "such" ? If so, then amen.. but I see it all the time. And since it's Friday with 2 hours of work left.. I will be enjoying it soon enough and have a good day yourself.

                    Comment


                    • Re: How necessary Baptism?

                      Originally posted by Doug Brents View Post
                      As referenced in many places, the Spirit of God does the work when we are immersed in water. The examples in the first century are not just anecdotal funnies that make up a good story for readers. They are there for us to get a full picture of how God deals with us under the NT as opposed to how He dealt with the people under the OT or during the time of the Patriarchs. Every salvation story includes the baptism of the new believer. And several give us the timeline of when things happen, like Saul's conversion in Acts 22. The Spirit does come to indwell us and seal us to Christ, and Acts 2 tells us when that happens.
                      "Then Peter said to them, ďRepent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."
                      We receive the Spirit when we are baptized in the Name of Jesus, because our sins are remitted (washed away) in that process.
                      The "remission of sins" is on behalf of the *confession,* which is what Water Baptism is. Sins are remitted even after we become Christians by confession.

                      It was by confession that we were initially saved. To 1st be Saved and then be Water Baptized is the order of Scriptures.

                      This means that the confession in Water Baptism followed the confession involved in the Salvation event. Clearly, Water Baptism is beyond Salvation and confesses an ongoing life of righteousness, so that any accompanying sins along the way may be forgiven.

                      Initial Salvation brought upon the initial remission of sins, and the confession involved with Water Baptism is a re-submittal of that confession along with a confession of continued commitment.

                      Not every person is mentioned as being Water Baptized in the NT upon entering into NT Christianity. Jesus began gathering disciples even before the cross. Some of them left, and some stayed. The ones that stayed are not mentioned as being baptized at all.

                      The ones who did get baptized by water were those who had not been following Jesus. John's Baptism was a *baptism of repentance.* Those who had been walking faithfully with the Lord did not need to repent!

                      You say that Spirit Baptism takes place *within* Water Baptism. But John the Baptist indicated that Messiah would come with a *different* baptism from Water Baptism. Therefore, NT Baptism is focused on spiritual baptism in which we are joined spiritually with Christ at conversion. Water Baptism is simply a tradition of initiation that reflects that spiritual baptism.

                      Matt 3.11 ďI baptize you with water for repentance. But after me comes one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire."

                      Comment


                      • Re: How necessary Baptism?

                        Originally posted by Pbminimum View Post
                        Probably just a knee jerk from past experiences. And if you've "never heard of such" before, then I'm not sure how else to take it ? Is this really so far out there that you've never heard of "such" ? If so, then amen.. but I see it all the time. And since it's Friday with 2 hours of work left.. I will be enjoying it soon enough and have a good day yourself.
                        Experiences between believers vary I suppose. Pride remains an existential vanity among Christians of all ages, that I can identify with. But ignorance of the faith we profess and fear? Fear of what?

                        Comment


                        • Re: How necessary Baptism?

                          Originally Posted by Trivalee

                          Experiences between believers vary I suppose. Pride remains an existential vanity among Christians of all ages, that I can identify with. But ignorance of the faith we profess and fear? Fear of what?

                          T, there is alot of fears in the Body. I just mention the power of the Holy Spirit with some I've known, due to their "church/denominational" raising, to testify of healing, deliverance of demons, prophetic words, etc... raises fear in them. It's not about ignorance, it's about experience. Experience that is mostly based on discipleship and some are NOT discipled properly.
                          --
                          Slug1--out

                          ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~

                          ~John 6:62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before?~ (Jesus is Eternal - existed before becoming a man)

                          Comment


                          • Re: How necessary Baptism?

                            Originally posted by Slug1 View Post
                            T, there is alot of fears in the Body. I just mention the power of the Holy Spirit with some I've known, due to their "church/denominational" raising, to testify of healing, deliverance of demons, prophetic words, etc... raises fear in them. It's not about ignorance, it's about experience. Experience that is mostly based on discipleship and some are NOT discipled properly.
                            I guess the bottom line is "discipleship". In my church, new converts are encouraged to immediately participate in what we call "beginner's Bible class". It's a crash course where the essence of Christianity, what it means to be saved, what is expected of the new believer, etc. are taught. At the heart of this programme is the all-important value of not conforming to the world or continuing in the lifestyle they lived before coming to faith.

                            Fear? One of the early passages new converts are taught to learn and meditate upon daily is 2 Tim 1:7 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind..

                            Comment


                            • Re: How necessary Baptism?

                              Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
                              I guess the bottom line is "discipleship". In my church, new converts are encouraged to immediately participate in what we call "beginner's Bible class". It's a crash course where the essence of Christianity, what it means to be saved, what is expected of the new believer, etc. are taught. At the heart of this programme is the all-important value of not conforming to the world or continuing in the lifestyle they lived before coming to faith.

                              Fear? One of the early passages new converts are taught to learn and meditate upon daily is 2 Tim 1:7 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind..
                              Hooah! The difference between being discipled into a denominational interpretation of scripture, their tenants and traditions compered to being discipled into God's Word is this... one experiences only what the denomination can offer and the other experiences all that God can offer.
                              --
                              Slug1--out

                              ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~

                              ~John 6:62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before?~ (Jesus is Eternal - existed before becoming a man)

                              Comment


                              • Re: How necessary Baptism?

                                Originally posted by Slug1 View Post
                                Hooah! The difference between being discipled into a denominational interpretation of scripture, their tenants and traditions compered to being discipled into God's Word is this... one experiences only what the denomination can offer and the other experiences all that God can offer.
                                True. And there is nothing in my post that alludes to new converts being indoctrinated into a "denominational interpretation of scripture".

                                Comment

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