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  • Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
    True. And there is nothing in my post that alludes to new converts being indoctrinated into a "denominational interpretation of scripture".
    True, I should have illuminated that better.
    Slug1--out

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

    ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

    ~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~


    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~


    Comment


    • Re: How necessary Baptism?

      Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
      Experiences between believers vary I suppose. Pride remains an existential vanity among Christians of all ages, that I can identify with. But ignorance of the faith we profess and fear? Fear of what?
      If you had bothered to read the post, you would understand. I specifically addressed ignorance and fear.

      Comment


      • Re: How necessary Baptism?

        Originally posted by Pbminimum View Post
        I guess I'm just not as holy as you bro. In my experience ( and it was mine ) RELIGION had made a box that I was afraid to step out of. Because I was convicted about 10 years after I had genuinely surrendered my heart to Christ about being baptized, I there was an amount of my own pride that tried to reason within myself because "what would everyone think ?" . During those 10 years I was an ordained deacon, and serving in the church - leading people to Christ and making disciples. Ignorance of biblical baptism - an outward sign of an inward change - had never really been something I thought was important, until it was.

        When I was baptized my flesh wanted to tell everyone that I had been a Christian for years and that my baptism had been delayed for whatever reason. That was quickly changed when I realized I just needed to be obedient and let people think what they would. After I was baptized , I had a friend who made a profession of faith in Christ who had been a church member for years. His words to me were ( paraphrasing here) " God had been dealing with me about being saved for a long time, but when I saw that you were being baptized I knew it was time to make a change."

        If the bible belt had a buckle , that's where I live. Religion, and fear of what others think is a real thing Triv. Whether you want to understand it or not doesn't change that. I am convinced that there are many in the church who were genuinely saved as adults after being baptized as a child - that' me - and need to follow through in believers baptism. How do we know when we are genuinely saved ? When our lives genuinely change.

        I'd also add that after I was baptized , God began to use me in a much more effective way than before. It's hard to explain it, but that's my story. NO one can convince me otherwise whether they agree or not.
        I addressed it here.

        Comment


        • Re: How necessary Baptism?

          Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
          Experiences between believers vary I suppose. Pride remains an existential vanity among Christians of all ages, that I can identify with. But ignorance of the faith we profess and fear? Fear of what?
          It is the fear Christians have of having missed a required step in their life of Salvation. If they fear that they missed God's requirement of Water Baptism, they live in fear that they had been disobedient to God.

          I know this because I lived it. This was actually after I had been raised a Christian from birth, and had attended church almost every week of my life, had gone through Bible and doctrinal classes, prayed every day, served in the church, and had returned from backsliding in my adolescence. This was when I was 17 or 18 years old!

          So I got "rebaptized" in a lake with my friends, even though I had been dedicated by "baptism" as an infant. It's no surprise that I didn't see angels descend from heaven, and hear heavenly harps playing. There was no great gushing of the Holy Spirit upon me. I didn't speak in tongues--that had already been required of me by pentecostal friends, and I managed to develop a "prayer language."

          The point is, for me this was just an exercise in futility. I was worried that I hadn't followed the biblical prescription, and may not be following God's chosen order for the Christian.

          Now that I'm much, much older--in fact retired--I can look back and laugh. Yes--laugh! I know the mind of God, in my own thinking. This is just superficial ceremonialism, when operating as a *requirement.* Water Baptism was never a legal requirement in NT Theology. It was mandated only as a recommended *form* of making the "good confession."

          What was really being required was making a *confession* of our Salvation. Water Baptism was provided as a recommended form so that we could make that needed confession, which indeed leads to Salvation. Fear of "missing God" by things like "not going to church every Sunday," or "regularly reading our Bible," is just the product of immaturity and a weak conscience. Those who are strengthened in faith are not self-condemned.

          1 John 3.21 Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God.

          I recommend that we let each Christian serve God in their own way, according to their own conscience. These kinds of issues will not prevent fellow believers from feeling self-condemned if they don't do certain things that are in the Bible.

          Comment


          • Re: How necessary Baptism?

            Originally posted by mailmandan View Post
            As I already explained, the clause "each one of you be baptized" is parenthetical. This is exactly what Acts 3:19 teaches except that Peter omits the parenthesis.

            Mark 16:16 - He who believes and is baptized will be saved (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) but he who does not believe will be condemned. The omission of baptized with "does not believe" shows that Jesus does not make baptism absolutely essential to salvation. Condemnation rests on unbelief, not on a lack of baptism. So salvation rests on belief. NOWHERE does the Bible say "baptized or condemned."

            If water baptism is absolutely required for salvation, then why did Jesus not mention it in the following verses? (3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26). What is the ONE requirement that Jesus mentions 9 different times in each of these complete statements? *BELIEVES. *What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics.

            *John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

            It certainly does exclude baptism.

            You need to properly harmonize scripture with scripture in order to reach the proper conclusion on doctrine instead of distorting and perverting passages of scripture in an effort to "patch together" a works based false gospel.

            Cornelius and his family were saved when they believed on the Lord Jesus Christ and received the gift of the Holy Spirit PRIOR TO RECEIVING WATER BAPTISM. (Acts 10:43-47; 11:17,18) Hearts are purified by faith and not by water baptism. (Acts 15:9)

            We obey the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel. Romans 10:16 - But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, ďLord, who has believed our report?Ē

            Jesus stated that those who believe will be saved (with no mention of baptism) multiple times (John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26) Baptism would have no meaning without Christís death, burial and resurrection, but Christís death, burial and resurrection would still have meaning, even if there were no baptism. In other words, Christís death is the substance and baptism is the sign/symbol/picture. Without the substance there would be no sign/symbol/picture. Baptism put it in it's proper place, subsequent to salvation through faith in Christ as all rites and works must be. Baptism is for believers, and believers are already saved, for the Bible says we are saved by grace through faith, not by rites or religious works, or good works. This does not remove good works/acts of obedience (including water baptism) from the Christian life, it just puts them in their proper place, subsequent to regeneration and salvation.

            Our sins are washed away by the blood of Christ the moment that we believe prior to receiving water baptism. (Acts 10:43; Romans 3:24-28) In regards to Colossians 2:12, you are confusing the picture (water baptism) with the reality (Spirit baptism).

            Do you attend the church of Christ? In regards to Acts 22:16, as Greek scholar AT Robertson points out, baptism here pictures the washing away of sins by the blood of Christ, but it does not literally wash away our sins, contrary to your conclusion. In Acts 10:43, receiving remission of sins is connected with "believes in Him" and not with baptism (Acts 10:43-47). In Acts 9, Jesus told Ananias that Paul "is a chosen vessel unto Me" (v. 15), although the apostle had not yet been baptized. Before Paul was baptized, Christ had already commissioned him to "bear (His) name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel" (Acts 9:15); such a commission is not Godís portion for one still lost and under wrath. Before Paulís baptism, Christ had set him aside as one who would "suffer for His nameís sake" (9:16). Can one who is a child of the devil, as all the lost are (Ephesians 2:1-3, John 8:44), really suffer for Christís sake? NO. Paul had already believed in Christ when Ananias came to pray for him to receive his sight (Acts 9:17). It also should be noted that Paul at the time when Ananias prayed for him to receive his sight, he was filled with the Holy Spirit (Acts 9:17)--this was before he was water baptized (Acts 9:18). Verse 17 connects his being filled with the Spirit with the receiving of his sight. We know that he received his sight prior to his baptism. *No Scripture is to be interpreted in isolation from the totality of Scripture. *Practically speaking, a singular and obscure verse is to be subservient to to multiple and clear verses, and not vice versa.

            As I said before, we must properly harmonize scripture with scripture in order to reach the proper conclusion on doctrine instead of distorting and perverting passages of scripture in an effort to "patch together" a works based false gospel. Works salvation is NO SALVATION AT ALL. Man is saved by grace through faith, NOT WORKS. To believe anything else is to miss salvation.

            *Who did Jesus Christ say would be condemned? John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

            Amen brother! Well said.
            You are correct in one thing. Belief is essential. But it is also not complete in and of itself. If belief were all that were necessary, then all who believe would be saved, yes? But there well be many who believe at Judgement, who will not be saved.

            Comment


            • Re: How necessary Baptism?

              Originally posted by Slug1 View Post
              The Gospel says to believe, to be saved. The baptism is all about following through in obedience per teaching, AFTER one is saved.

              Here is something in the Bible:

              Romans 3:22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,25 whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins.
              26 It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

              See the parts underlined, 24 and 25a? If what you say is true, then 24-25a is an error because by what you are saying, Christ's blood as a propitiation ISN'T received by faith (when a person believes). You are saying that the blood is a propitiation only AFTER a man baptizes a believer.

              So, either you are correct and the verse is misleading or the verse is correct and you are misled
              No, faith is (in part) the actions we take in response to our belief. It is through faith that we receive grace. Not through belief, but faith. What I am saying Scripture says does not violate Rom 3, but supports it. We do not earn grace, it is a gift, but it is not given to everyone, not even everyone who believes. But only to those who obey. Only those who obey truly love God.

              Comment


              • Re: How necessary Baptism?

                Originally posted by Doug Brents View Post
                No, faith is (in part) the actions we take in response to our belief. It is through faith that we receive grace. Not through belief, but faith. What I am saying Scripture says does not violate Rom 3, but supports it. We do not earn grace, it is a gift, but it is not given to everyone, not even everyone who believes. But only to those who obey. Only those who obey truly love God.
                Brother, you are stepping in legalism.

                Here is why I say this concerning what you just said. No one can "truly" love God. We are told to love Him with all our heart/mind/soul but not one Christian can. Thus... grace! By grace, we can be justified when we believe (faith), so that when God looks at any who believe in His Son, the Son who received ALL of God's righteous judgment upon Himself on that Cross (the Blood), when God looks at us, He see's His Son... not our inability to be 100% perfect in obedience, trust, faith even.

                Yes, obedience is fruit of one loving God. However, only the self-righteous claim 100% obedience to God and only the legalistic claim that failure to not be 100% obedient, one will not be saved or isn't saved.
                Slug1--out

                ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

                ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

                ~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~


                ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~


                Comment


                • Re: How necessary Baptism?

                  Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
                  See, your question nails the essence of baptism! But where does it say that "blood" is poured on the believer at the time of water baptism, that's my disagreement? Scripture makes it clear that water baptism is different from the Baptism of the Holy Spirit - none of the two has blood poured on the believer.
                  You didn't answer my question, but then I didn't expect you to.

                  We are told in 1 John 1:7 that the blood of Christ continually cleanses us from all sin. We are told in Col 2 that the Spirit of God circumcises us from our past life of sin in baptism. In Rom 6 we are told that it is the glory of the Father that raised Christ from the dead and we are resurrected by the same power. The Blood of Christ, the glory of the Father, and the Spirit of God are synonymous. They are the same because they are all said to do the same thing.

                  Comment


                  • Re: How necessary Baptism?

                    Originally posted by Doug Brents View Post
                    You didn't answer my question, but then I didn't expect you to.

                    We are told in 1 John 1:7 that the blood of Christ continually cleanses us from all sin. We are told in Col 2 that the Spirit of God circumcises us from our past life of sin in baptism. In Rom 6 we are told that it is the glory of the Father that raised Christ from the dead and we are resurrected by the same power. The Blood of Christ, the glory of the Father, and the Spirit of God are synonymous. They are the same because they are all said to do the same thing.
                    Concerning Colossians 2, are you referring to this verse:

                    12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead.
                    Slug1--out

                    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

                    ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

                    ~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~


                    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~


                    Comment


                    • Re: How necessary Baptism?

                      Originally posted by randyk View Post
                      It is the fear Christians have of having missed a required step in their life of Salvation. If they fear that they missed God's requirement of Water Baptism, they live in fear that they had been disobedient to God.

                      I know this because I lived it. This was actually after I had been raised a Christian from birth, and had attended church almost every week of my life, had gone through Bible and doctrinal classes, prayed every day, served in the church, and had returned from backsliding in my adolescence. This was when I was 17 or 18 years old!

                      So I got "rebaptized" in a lake with my friends, even though I had been dedicated by "baptism" as an infant. It's no surprise that I didn't see angels descend from heaven, and hear heavenly harps playing. There was no great gushing of the Holy Spirit upon me. I didn't speak in tongues--that had already been required of me by pentecostal friends, and I managed to develop a "prayer language."

                      The point is, for me this was just an exercise in futility. I was worried that I hadn't followed the biblical prescription, and may not be following God's chosen order for the Christian.

                      Now that I'm much, much older--in fact retired--I can look back and laugh. Yes--laugh! I know the mind of God, in my own thinking. This is just superficial ceremonialism, when operating as a *requirement.* Water Baptism was never a legal requirement in NT Theology. It was mandated only as a recommended *form* of making the "good confession."

                      What was really being required was making a *confession* of our Salvation. Water Baptism was provided as a recommended form so that we could make that needed confession, which indeed leads to Salvation. Fear of "missing God" by things like "not going to church every Sunday," or "regularly reading our Bible," is just the product of immaturity and a weak conscience. Those who are strengthened in faith are not self-condemned.

                      1 John 3.21 Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God.

                      I recommend that we let each Christian serve God in their own way, according to their own conscience. These kinds of issues will not prevent fellow believers from feeling self-condemned if they don't do certain things that are in the Bible.
                      I agree. This is why I said earlier that experiences vary between believers. We know they are in most part, too often moulded by the denominational doctrines of churches. In my church, we do not create an atmosphere of fear (save for sin) to believers [both new converts and old] but only emphasize the joy of a new life in Christ. So you can understand why it was strange for me to hear from Pbminimum that a new convert has fear? That's why I queried, fear of what?

                      What's the logic for an unbeliever leaving the world of sin behind only to come to Christendom to become 'afraid'?

                      With regards to ignorance, are we not all ignorant of one thing or another? After all, Paul warned that "if a man think himself to be something when he is nothing he deceives himself" Gal 6:3

                      Comment


                      • Re: How necessary Baptism?

                        Originally posted by Doug Brents View Post
                        You didn't answer my question, but then I didn't expect you to.

                        We are told in 1 John 1:7 that the blood of Christ continually cleanses us from all sin. We are told in Col 2 that the Spirit of God circumcises us from our past life of sin in baptism. In Rom 6 we are told that it is the glory of the Father that raised Christ from the dead and we are resurrected by the same power. The Blood of Christ, the glory of the Father, and the Spirit of God are synonymous. They are the same because they are all said to do the same thing.
                        The problem in Christendom often arises when people use scripture out of context. You said you didn't expect me to answer your question: well, I've learned over the years to cut to the chase and that sometimes means ignoring inane questions. For example, there is nothing in 1 John 1:7 about water baptism, nor does it say that the blood of Jesus is poured one during water baptism. You cleverly did not provide the verse(s) on Col 2 and Rom 6 that supposedly supports your case, so I'll ignore them.

                        I find that you are not sure of what you're arguing about as you seem to gravitate between water baptism, baptism of the Holy Ghost and the blood of Jesus.

                        Comment

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