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  • Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Originally posted by randyk View Post
    Okay, that's your view. Yes, I do believe it was a recommendation of Jesus. I don't believe Baptism is a necessary initiation ceremony into Christianity. I was born a Christian from day one. I didn't have to wait until I was old enough to get Baptized. I had infant Baptism, so I was dedicated by my parents to Christianity. This is just how I feel about it, brother. Baptism played no significant role in my life. It didn't keep me from being Saved. I've never known what it's like to not be saved. On the other hand, I had to learn a lot about the Holy Spirit, after being raised a Lutheran.
    You were born a Christian?!? I suppose you’re the first one.
    Some people don't mind contradicting themselves as long as they can keep disagreeing with you...

    Comment


    • Re: How necessary Baptism?

      Let’s make it clear that baptism is a commandment. Just because it’s not required for salvation doesn’t turn it into a recommendation. That approach would get a person in all kinds of doctrinal error.
      Some people don't mind contradicting themselves as long as they can keep disagreeing with you...

      Comment


      • Re: How necessary Baptism?

        Originally posted by ChangedByHim View Post
        You were born a Christian?!? I suppose you’re the first one.
        What, you think I got born again as a toddler? I don't remember being born again, whether it happened or not. I'm not claiming to be the equal of John the Baptist, but he was jumping in his mother's womb when Jesus came by. I was jumping in my heart the 1st day I got to Sunday School! I still remember "Jesus Loves Me, This I Know." Yes, I did *know!*

        What biblical passage are you using to call me "mistaken?"

        Comment


        • Re: How necessary Baptism?

          Originally posted by ChangedByHim View Post
          Let’s make it clear that baptism is a commandment. Just because it’s not required for salvation doesn’t turn it into a recommendation. That approach would get a person in all kinds of doctrinal error.
          Jesus commanded his apostles to go preach that message. They obeyed, and that's the primary initiation ceremony that was used following salvation.

          In my view, it is debatable whether part of the message the apostles were given was to both get Saved and get Baptized in all generations. It is indeed arguable that because they were commissioned with reaching the whole world that their message, including Water Baptism, is an age-long mandate. This is possible, in my thinking. I'm just asking the question for good reasons.

          If Water Baptism following Salvation was so important you would think that the apostles would have taught the necessity of Baptism along with Salvation. But they didn't. Or please provide me with the Scriptures?

          How do we resolve this apparent contradiction? That's the reason I bring the issue up, to ensure that Salvation is exclusively based on Faith Alone--not to diminish the value of Water Baptism as an initiation ceremony.

          Also, I would like Water Baptism to be seen for what it really is, biblically, rather than just a legalistic exercise. It is supposed to be representative of Spirit Baptism, which John the Baptist made critical--not Water Baptism.


          John 1.33 I myself did not know him, but he who sent me to baptize with water said to me, ‘He on whom you see the Spirit descend and remain, this is he who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.’

          I would argue that the important thing about Water Baptism to Jesus was not the ritual of Baptism at all, but rather, the thing it represented, which was Spirit Baptism, or Salvation. I believe Spirit Baptism is, in fact, Salvation. I suppose this can be debated, as well?

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          • Re: How necessary Baptism?

            Originally posted by randyk View Post
            In my view, it is debatable whether part of the message the apostles were given was to both get Saved and get Baptized in all generations.
            It's not debatable at all.

            Originally posted by randyk View Post
            If Water Baptism following Salvation was so important you would think that the apostles would have taught the necessity of Baptism along with Salvation.
            Mark 16:16: Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

            Originally posted by randyk View Post
            not to diminish the value of Water Baptism as an initiation ceremony.
            Baptism is more than just an "initiation ceremony."

            Comment


            • Re: How necessary Baptism?

              Originally posted by randyk View Post
              What, you think I got born again as a toddler? I don't remember being born again, whether it happened or not. I'm not claiming to be the equal of John the Baptist, but he was jumping in his mother's womb when Jesus came by.

              What biblical passage are you using to call me "mistaken?"
              Randy, what all Christians have in common is a testimony of WHEN they were NOT born-again and WHEN they BECAME born-again.

              I was jumping in my heart the 1st day I got to Sunday School! I still remember "Jesus Loves Me, This I Know." Yes, I did *know!*
              I too remember this, jumping in my heart in the basement of a Presbyterian denomination church. But in time, I accepted Christ and my heart went from "jumping" all emotional like too... sealed once I accepted "the" Jesus I sang about.
              --
              Slug1--out

              ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~

              ~John 6:62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before?~ (Jesus is Eternal - existed before becoming a man)

              Comment


              • Re: How necessary Baptism?

                Originally posted by randyk View Post
                Baptism is a ritual, and only a symbolic demonstration of a Salvation we obtain *before* Water Baptism. Water Baptism symbolizes, as a public proclamation, the Spirit Baptism within.

                As such, Water Baptism is not an essential part of Salvation, but only a public confession, telling the world in which we lived that we are no longer living that way, but rather, living according to Christ. Water Baptism was not the essential thing. Inward change was the essential thing. Water Baptism was only an external testimony to the public that we had *already been saved.*

                Baptism is not necessary for salvation. Why did Jesus tell us to do it? It was a reasonable way to publicly proclaim our initiation into the Christian Faith. Jesus wanted us to not just declare our salvation--he wanted us to publicly declare it in an open ritual--not as if the ritual was necessary, but only as one means of showing the world our change of heart.


                Salvation has always been a matter of faith. If not, then all the people who ever lived before Christian Baptism are damned! But Christian Baptism is a testimony to the world of a different way of living that ensures Salvation, through faith in Christ and in a new way of life.


                Those who believe in Christ, and who demonstrate a new way of life, will be saved. This means that all those whose faith saved them, and make their Christianity a public proclamation through water baptism, will also be saved. This means that all those whose faith saved them, get baptized, and live a Christian life, as opposed to the ways of the world, will be saved.


                The ritual of Baptism is not a necessary ingredient in Salvation. It is just the recommended ritual Jesus advocated in his time, to testify to the world a message he wanted the world to hear. It was important in its time, due to the preparatory work John the Baptist had done, to promote repentance.


                Repentance is still an important precursor to embracing Christian Salvation. But Salvation comes not by Water Baptism, but rather, by Spirit Baptism, which is what Water Baptism represents. It is accepting Christ by faith, and by making the associated internal changes conducive to Christian living.

                Water Baptism is purely ritual--just one means of proclaiming our faith--and not necessary for Salvation. Christian Salvation is strictly internal and by faith. Once Christianity has been established in the heart by *Spirit Baptism,* then Christianity may be demonstrated outwardly in a variety of ways--by good works, by public testimonials, by baptism, by catechism, by going to Bible School, by participating in Christian forums. The important thing is that we have Christ living on the inside, and that we make that commitment permanent!
                Baptism was very necessary for salvation. Not so much now, in most of the world. Consider these two comments from you....

                Baptism is not necessary for salvation.
                Salvation has always been a matter of faith.

                Now consider Baptism in the context of the early Church.
                Now consider it in the context of the vast majority of the world today.
                Baptism was necessary for salvation because it was a matter of faith, but not so much any more because baptism no longer requires faith for most.

                https://bibleforums.org/showthread.p...-and-mysticism

                Grace and peace!

                Comment


                • Re: How necessary Baptism?

                  Originally posted by Radagast View Post
                  It's not debatable at all.

                  Mark 16:16: Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

                  Baptism is more than just an "initiation ceremony."
                  In my view, that's all it was--an initiation ceremony into the Christian community, as well as a confession that the previous life was being repented of, and that the future will be determined by the leadership of Christ's Spirit. Spirit Baptism is what Water Baptism represented.

                  Jesus did command his apostles to go out and baptize in their generation, and they did. They were to preach the Gospel to all generations, and they did. They were teach those nations the teachings of Jesus, and they did. But to include Water Baptism as one of the teachings of Jesus is debatable. And whether Water Baptism remains necessary beyond the initial establishment of Christianity in those nations is debatable.

                  Just like John the Baptist, the Apostles carried out the command to Water Baptize explicitly. On the other hand, Baptism is never taught as a necessary part of Salvation. Future generations, like our generation, have to decide, it seems.

                  My own view is that if you are raised in the Faith, there is no need to get Water Baptized. You're already saved. There is no need to express your repentance. You are already walking with the Lord. What are we getting Baptized for if there is no need to begin our Christianity, nor to repent of a pagan lifestyle?

                  Water Baptism was initiated in one of the worst times in Israel's history, in terms of sin. They were inundated with a ton of legalism, and inside was murder and hatred, covetousness and greed. Worst of all, that generation would murder their own Messiah, as well as his followers. They were, for all intents and purposes, pagan!

                  It was in this environment that God called John the Baptist to use Water Baptism as a last means of bringing Israel away from their sins and back to their God. There was an initial acceptance of Christ, but then, a complete departure from him by most of the people. Water Baptism was unsuccessful without a Baptism into Christ's Spirit.

                  So God turned to the pagan Gentiles, and gave them the same opportunity to get initiated into Christian Salvation, and then express their repentance through Water Baptism. And now, after many generations, and after many nations have become Christian nations, people like myself have grown up in the Faith.

                  We've therefore substituted Infant Baptism for adult Water Baptism. This is not so much Adult Water Baptism as a dedication by the parents of their children to the Lord. There is no need for Water Baptism if the children are born into the Faith and raised up in the Lord.

                  If we fail to recognize these things, Baptism will become a form of legalism, and viewed almost as a kind of magical communication of divine virtue, thought to transfer Christ's spiritual energy to the adherent. Catholics got into this with Transubstantiation. I don't want to do with Water Baptism either.

                  Regardless, I'm fine if people want to convert to Christ and get Water Baptized. That's what it's for. It just isn't a requirement, as far as I know. It was certainly something that Jesus told his Apostles to practice. But the teaching they were to pass down from generation to generation was the teaching of Christian Salvation, and only Baptism as an initiation ceremony.

                  Otherwise, there would be explicit biblical teaching that indicated the necessity of Water Baptism for all. And it just isn't taught. It is all predicated on the practice of the Apostles to whom Jesus gave this commission. I find it arguable as to whether it applies in all circumstances.

                  I'm not advocating for anything unbiblical. You need to show me more than just Jesus telling his 12 Apostles to Water Baptize. Teaching all nations the Gospel does not automatically translate into getting saved *and* water baptized! I maintain that the Gospel is all about receiving Christ into your heart, making him Lord of your life. It is *not* about the necessity of Water Baptism.

                  For the most part it was only the 12 apostles who Water Baptized. Paul rarely Water Baptized, but did not refrain from seeing it done, since the 12 were told to do so. Since Paul did not assume this was a necessary part of his ministry, he did not take it upon himself to practice this, for the most part. That tells me this was a commandment primarily to the Apostles, and then only a recommendation to others.

                  Comment


                  • Re: How necessary Baptism?

                    Originally posted by Noeb View Post
                    Baptism was very necessary for salvation. Not so much now, in most of the world. Consider these two comments from you....

                    Baptism is not necessary for salvation.
                    Salvation has always been a matter of faith.

                    Now consider Baptism in the context of the early Church.
                    Now consider it in the context of the vast majority of the world today.
                    Baptism was necessary for salvation because it was a matter of faith, but not so much any more because baptism no longer requires faith for most.

                    https://bibleforums.org/showthread.p...-and-mysticism

                    Grace and peace!
                    You're defining "faith" differently than I do, and differently than the Bible does. Nowhere does the Bible define "faith" as you are defining it, as simple acceptance of something.

                    Biblical Faith has Christ as its object, and not Water Baptism. I can gargle in "faith" that it will cure my cold, but it won't work. That kind of "faith" is shallow, unreal, and not biblical. That is just assumption.

                    As I said, true biblical faith must have Christ as its object. Unless the real Christ is confronted, faith is in the eye of the beholder, and that isn't good. Sinner's tend to have faith in anything they want, and not in things that Christ wants!

                    To just have "faith" that Baptism is a valid expression of Christian Salvation is pure assumption. Nowhere does the Bible indicate that Water Baptism is synonymous with or part of Salvation. Christ is the basis of our Salvation, and he is received spiritually, in the heart, and not obtained through ritual means.

                    Comment


                    • Re: How necessary Baptism?

                      Originally posted by Slug1 View Post
                      Randy, what all Christians have in common is a testimony of WHEN they were NOT born-again and WHEN they BECAME born-again.

                      I too remember this, jumping in my heart in the basement of a Presbyterian denomination church. But in time, I accepted Christ and my heart went from "jumping" all emotional like too... sealed once I accepted "the" Jesus I sang about.
                      Believe me, brother--I've always known the Lord. The time I came to realize what serving him really meant is when I came to understand the role the Holy Spirit is to play in my life. And that was at age 16, when I promised to give Him my all.

                      Maybe I should call my pre-Holy Spirit days an "unsaved" period in my life? Still, I was raised up in church, and spent nearly every week of my life in church. My Dad was the organist, choir director, and adult bible study teacher. His Dad before him was a serious student of the Scriptures. I was an acolyte, and helped serve the Communion. I was confirmed after 2 years of Lutheran catechism.

                      A lot of young people go through this kind of religious instruction from youth. I just don't know how real it is for each person? As for me, I knew the Lord, and just had to learn more about what role the Holy Spirit plays in guiding us. I had to learn how important obedience was to having Him guide me in life.

                      Early in my life I didn't know enough about the ways of the Lord to do much more than live a good life and talk to the Lord regularly--not just official prayer but also casually, in the course of living. I asked God for things regularly. What would you call this?

                      Comment


                      • Re: How necessary Baptism?

                        Originally posted by randyk View Post
                        You're defining "faith" differently than I do, and differently than the Bible does. Nowhere does the Bible define "faith" as you are defining it, as simple acceptance of something.

                        Biblical Faith has Christ as its object, and not Water Baptism. I can gargle in "faith" that it will cure my cold, but it won't work. That kind of "faith" is shallow, unreal, and not biblical. That is just assumption.

                        As I said, true biblical faith must have Christ as its object. Unless the real Christ is confronted, faith is in the eye of the beholder, and that isn't good. Sinner's tend to have faith in anything they want, and not in things that Christ wants!

                        To just have "faith" that Baptism is a valid expression of Christian Salvation is pure assumption. Nowhere does the Bible indicate that Water Baptism is synonymous with or part of Salvation. Christ is the basis of our Salvation, and he is received spiritually, in the heart, and not obtained through ritual means.
                        I don't know where you're getting any of this, but it's not from me. Christ WAS the reason they were willing to be baptized and as result suffer persecution even unto death. Who is that the case for today?

                        Comment


                        • Re: How necessary Baptism?

                          Originally posted by randyk View Post
                          In my view, that's all it was--an initiation ceremony into the Christian community
                          Given that your view contradicts the Bible and 2000 years of Christianity, why should we accept it?

                          Originally posted by randyk View Post
                          Jesus did command his apostles to go out and baptize in their generation, and they did. They were to preach the Gospel to all generations, and they did.
                          This is a total distortion of what Scripture says. The words "in their generation" are the "gospel according to randyk," they do not occur in Scripture.

                          Originally posted by randyk View Post
                          But to include Water Baptism as one of the teachings of Jesus is debatable.
                          No, it really isn't.

                          Originally posted by randyk View Post
                          Otherwise, there would be explicit biblical teaching that indicated the necessity of Water Baptism for all. And it just isn't taught.
                          Matthew 28:18-20: And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptising them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you....

                          Originally posted by randyk View Post
                          I'm not advocating for anything unbiblical.
                          Yes, you are.

                          Originally posted by randyk View Post
                          Paul rarely Water Baptized
                          Again, you're totally making that up.

                          We are told that Paul baptised few of the Corinthians, but only because others did the baptising (e.g. Acts 18:8).

                          We know that Paul did at least baptise a dozen Ephesians (Acts 19:1-7), plus the Philippian jailer and his family (Acts 16:33).

                          Comment


                          • Re: How necessary Baptism?

                            Originally posted by Pbminimum View Post
                            None of what you posted interferes with simple faith and repentance simply saving a sinner. I'm so glad that Jesus offers forgiveness and we just need to receive it. Your way is not an easy yoke nor is it scriptural Walls. It's legalistic.



                            None of what you posted interferes with simple faith and repentance simply saving a sinner. I'm so glad that Jesus offers forgiveness and we just need to receive it. Your way is not an easy yoke nor is it scriptural Walls. It's legalistic.
                            God has revealed the glories of our Savior Jesus Christ. I mentioned a few to show how rich the Bible is, how gracious God is to reveal things to us, how complicated our salvation is and how comprehensive it is. And you say that all that is legalistic? My prayer for you is that one day she start to see the glories of Christ in God's nearly 1,200 chapters. It will strike awe, gratitude and excitement in you like nothing else. You want things simple. This is what God wants.

                            11 "Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.
                            12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
                            13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
                            14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
                            1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
                            2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
                            3 And this will we do, if God permit."
                            (Hebrews 5:11 - 6:3)

                            Is not this Forum a perfect example of the above scripture? The brothers argue and squabble over the foundational doctrines, like we have in this thread. Well has the Holy Spirit said that "we are DULL OF HEARING and need only MILK". Wouldn't it be nice if we were discussing those points I mentioned - Christ revealed in all His glory. Legalistic? NO! It's MEAT!

                            Comment


                            • Re: How necessary Baptism?

                              Originally posted by Radagast View Post
                              Mark 16:16: Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.
                              Mark 16:16 - He who believes and is baptized will be saved (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) but he who does not believe will be condemned. The omission of baptized with "does not believe" shows that Jesus does not make baptism absolutely essential to salvation. Condemnation rests on unbelief, not on a lack of baptism. So salvation rests on belief. NOWHERE does the Bible say "baptized or condemned."

                              If water baptism is absolutely required for salvation, then why did Jesus not mention it in the following verses? (3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26). What is the ONE requirement that Jesus mentions 9 different times in each of these complete statements? BELIEVES. *What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics. John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
                              Galatians 6:14 - But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.

                              Comment


                              • Re: How necessary Baptism?

                                Originally posted by mailmandan View Post
                                Mark 16:16 - He who believes and is baptized will be saved (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) but he who does not believe will be condemned. The omission of baptized with "does not believe" shows that Jesus does not make baptism absolutely essential to salvation. Condemnation rests on unbelief, not on a lack of baptism. So salvation rests on belief. NOWHERE does the Bible say "baptized or condemned."

                                If water baptism is absolutely required for salvation, then why did Jesus not mention it in the following verses? (3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26). What is the ONE requirement that Jesus mentions 9 different times in each of these complete statements? BELIEVES. *What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics. John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
                                Correct - and well stated. But there also another possibility. Baptism is not mentioned the second time because it is moot if a person does not believe. It might be a poor example but consider this.

                                I have a 4 X 4 and spares to cross the Sahara desert. If I have no 4 X 4 I cannot cross the Sahara.

                                Why did I leave out "the spares" in the second sentence? Because without the 4 X 4 they are moot. The Holy Spirit is a Master of economical speech (Jn.20:30-31). Therefore, the leaving out of Baptism in the second mention COULD be as is said above in your posting. But if the Holy Spirit left it out in the case of unbelievers it does not invalidate the statement made to believers.

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