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  • Re: sinner

    Bumped for gordon my post #95 in this thread.

    IN GOD THE SON,
    maverick

    Comment


    • Re: sinner

      Originally posted by maverick View Post
      Bumped for gordon.

      IN GOD THE SON,
      maverick
      Maverick, your own opinion is on the beginning of this thread, and your private assumption of Romans 7, that it is not for Christians, and I say, it is for Christians if, it is for Christians who say Lord Lord to Christ, and He says I never knew you, all you workers of iniquity.

      Comment


      • Re: sinner

        At the end of the day, if we find following the "Law of Moses" is the way to righteousness, I pray we all heed this concluding comment by Paul:

        Gal 2: 20 I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me. 21 I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died [j]in vain.”
        --
        Slug1--out

        ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~

        ~John 6:62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before?~ (Jesus is Eternal - existed before becoming a man)

        Comment


        • Re: sinner

          At the end of the day, if we find following the "Law of Moses" is the way to righteousness, I pray we all heed this concluding comment by Paul:

          Gal 2: 20 I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me. 21 I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died [j]in vain.”
          --
          Slug1--out

          ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~

          ~John 6:62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before?~ (Jesus is Eternal - existed before becoming a man)

          Comment


          • Re: sinner

            Originally posted by gordon777 View Post
            What are the bondage they returned to?
            The covenant (curse) given at Sinai. It says so right here:

            One covenant is from Mount Sinai and bears children who are to be slaves ... [But] for freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery. (Galatians 4 & 5)

            to no longer walk after the flesh (sinning) making us free from the law of sin (sinning) and death.
            Surely you see how this is a contradiction?

            If to be free from the law you must follow it, then you are being judged by it. How can you be made free of something which continues to be the standard over you? What you're preaching is not freedom from the law, but perfect adherence to it. So you're falling into the same error as the Galatians.

            This persuasion is not from him who calls you. (5:8)
            「耶和華聖潔無比,獨一無二,沒有磐石像我們的上帝。
            撒母耳記上 (1 Samuel) 2:2

            Comment


            • Re: sinner

              Originally posted by Pbminimum View Post
              Amen, and know that Christ's blood and righteousness is the ONLY thing that can make us clean, or acceptable to a Holy Father. NOT our performance or our own works.

              it's the word of the covenant that the blood is upon that makes us clean The gospel of the kingdom , not the law of Moses.

              “Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.”
              **John‬ *15:3‬ *KJV‬‬


              there's a gigantic difference in the gospel which Jesus began to preach after johns ministry , and the law of Moses written in full by Moses the mediator of the covenant at Sinai. We're dead to that law by Christ . The words of the new covenant are those of the mediator Jesus , when he shed his blood , it made his word the eternal path to salvation Therin is a man made clean by faith , that comes from the word of God.

              a covenant happens when the words are spoken first all of them , and then the blood is shed according to the words of the covenant. When the blood is shed . The law becomes of force , after the testator has died his will goes on according to his words alone......that's salvation through Christ .

              unlike this o.p. It has nothing to do with the righteousness of the law . It's worthless to do the works of the law can never save anyone it's actually a curse to be of those works ....

              “Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

              But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;”
              **Romans‬ *3:20-23‬ *KJV‬‬

              the idea that Jesus preached the mosaic law , is refuted clearly and ridiculous because he himself is the culmination of the law ...the Christ who was to come teach the world Gods eternal judgements....and the culmination of the old covenant completely it's promise ended with " the messiah is coming , one will come before him crying in the desert , then the lord , the messenger of the covenant shall come......that was where thier failure to,keep the old covenant led them ....they needed salvation because like all others they sinned. When Jesus came and began to preach the gospel after he was baptized by John ........that is the word of the new covenant , how anyone can imagine the law is the same I can't understand .

              the law demands no mercy upon sinners, over and over the law describes in detail sins all thier many forms , and then demands anyone who does anything I said " do not do this " be cut off from the people , many sins in the law command the death of the sinner by stoning m hanging , burning , being hung on a tree as a curse ......I think people don't read the law or the gospel and just assume thier the same thing. There's a new covenant , mediated by Jesus Christ , like Moses did at Sinai for the first covenant he spoke all the words ofmGod , then shed the blood of the covenant ......there's no changing the word when the testator dies .....it's forever the same no one can change one directive in the will that's how the gospel is

              The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.”
              **Luke‬ *16:16‬ *KJV‬‬

              Jesus preached salvation for those who believe then sent the same out to the world

              “And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.”
              **Matthew‬ *24:14‬ *KJV‬‬

              it's not about Moses law that's not the law of a Christian , it's a law over the flesh and sin it cannot justify a man if they were able to,keep every jot and title , they would then be transferred sing the gospels commands , because they are contrary one is for the flesh that's lost to death, the other is for the spirit that lives on...one promises death to a sinner, the other promises forgiveness , grace and redemption and eternal,life to sinners who believe his word and trust in his bloodshed for atonement according to the law of sin and death.


              “Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.”
              **Galatians‬ *2:16‬ *KJV‬‬


              to be confident in the works of the law is why the Pharisees rejected Jesus

              “But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.”
              **Romans‬ *9:31-33‬ *KJV‬‬


              a lot of legalists stumble at the truth of Jesus Christ because they are looking at the law of Moses for salvation and are blinded to the gospel because they don't look at it and see how different and better it is , how it's not about our work but about the word we believe producing the fruit of the kingdom and eternal life .....we don't get to go on in sin , we get to be redeemed by the power of God from within by faith , so those sins we just can't overcome in the flesh .......those things are circumcised by the spirit win us removed from our nature......it's about belief in the right word . Believe it or. It the mosaic law has a dark veil that blinds men to the light

              “And not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same veil untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which veil is done away in Christ. But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the veil is upon their heart. Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the veil shall be taken away. Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.”
              **2 Corinthians‬ *3:13-18‬ *KJV‬‬


              it's odd how many people don't understand the bible is actually divided correctly , the new covenant begins with the gospel that's our law

              Comment


              • Re: sinner

                We*are*the*servants*to*who*we*obey,*sin*unto*death ,*or*obedience*unto*righteousness.

                Now*we*obey*from*the*heart,*that*form*of*doctrine* that*is*delivered*to*us,*the*Gospel*of*Christ.

                Becoming*free*from*sin,*is*to*become*the*servants* of*righteousness.

                Romans*6:14*For*sin*shall*not*have*dominion*over*y ou:*for*ye*are*not*under*the*law,*but*under*grace.
                15*What*then?*shall*we*sin,*because*we*are*not*und er*the*law,*but*under*grace?*God*forbid.
                16*Know*ye*not,*that*to*whom*ye*yield*yourselves*s ervants*to*obey,*his*servants*ye*are*to*whom*ye*ob ey;*whether*of*sin*unto*death,*or*of*obedience*unt o*righteousness?
                17*But*God*be*thanked,*that*ye*were*the*servants*o f*sin,*but*ye*have*obeyed*from*the*heart*that*form *of*doctrine*which*was*delivered*you.
                18*Being*then*made*free*from*sin,*ye*became*the*se rvants*of*righteousness.

                Yes*Galatians*3*says*to*put*on*Jesus*Christ,*this* is*to*not*make*provision*to*the*flesh,*to*fulfil*a ny*of*those*lusts.*Casting*off*the*works*of*darkne ss.

                No*strife,*putting*on*the*ARMOUR*OF*LIGHT.

                Loving*another,*not*only*is*the*remaining*commandm ent*of*Christ,*it*also*is*the*fulfilling*of*the*la w.

                No*adultery,*no*killing,*no*stealing,*no*lying,*no *coveting,*these*commandments*are*told*to*be*follo wed*in*the*heart,*to*know*God*who*is*love*is*to*kn ow*love*works*no*ill*to*his*neighbour.

                Romans*13:8*Owe*no*man*any*thing,*but*to*love*one* another:*for*he*that*loveth*another*hath*fulfilled *the*law.
                9*For*this,*Thou*shalt*not*commit*adultery,*Thou*s halt*not*kill,*Thou*shalt*not*steal,*Thou*shalt*no t*bear*false*witness,*Thou*shalt*not*covet;*and*if *there*be*any*other*commandment,*it*is*briefly*com prehended*in*this*saying,*namely,*Thou*shalt*love* thy*neighbour*as*thyself.
                10*Love*worketh*no*ill*to*his*neighbour:*therefore *love*is*the*fulfilling*of*the*law.

                Romans*13:2*The*night*is*far*spent,*the*day*is*at* hand:*let*us*therefore*cast*off*the*works*of*darkn ess,*and*let*us*put*on*the*armour*of*light.
                13*Let*us*walk*honestly,*as*in*the*day;*not*in*rio ting*and*drunkenness,*not*in*chambering*and*wanton ness,*not*in*strife*and*envying.
                14*But*put*ye*on*the*Lord*Jesus*Christ,*and*make*n ot*provision*for*the*flesh,*to*fulfil*the*lusts*th ereof.

                People*also*do*not*read*Romans*7*in*the*simple*way *it*is*told,*Apostle*Paul*is*the*teacher*to*this*w orld*of*Gentiles,*showing*us,*that*the*law*is*Spir itual,*but*he*is*carnal.

                Next*the*same*Apostle*Paul*in*1*Corinthians*3,*con firms,*he*cannot*speak*to*these*Corinthians*as*unt o*spiritual,*but*only*as*unto*carnal.*They*are*YET *CARNAL,*and*walk*as*men,*in*strife*as*told*above, *and*what*sense*would*i*make*for*Paul*to*be*yet*ca rnal*and*be*a*teacher,*unless*he*is*spiritual*NOW?

                Romans*7:14*For*we*know*that*the*law*is*spiritual: *but*I*am*carnal,*sold*under*sin.

                1*Corinthians*3:1*And*I,*brethren,*could*not*speak *unto*you*as*unto*spiritual,*but*as*unto*carnal,*e ven*as*unto*babes*in*Christ.
                2*I*have*fed*you*with*milk,*and*not*with*meat:*for *hitherto*ye*were*not*able*to*bear*it,*neither*yet *now*are*ye*able.
                3*For*ye*are*yet*carnal:*for*whereas*there*is*amon g*you*envying,*and*strife,*and*divisions,*are*ye*n ot*carnal,*and*walk*as*men?

                Yes*we*were*told*to*take*the*armour*of*light,*we*n eed*these*to*withstand*in*the*evil*day,*we*also*ne ed*to*do*all,*to*stand...

                Ephesians*6:13*Wherefore*take*unto*you*the*whole*a rmour*of*God,*that*ye*may*be*able*to*withstand*in* the*evil*day,*and*having*done*all,*to*stand.
                14*Stand*therefore,*having*your*loins*girt*about*w ith*truth,*and*having*on*the*breastplate*of*righte ousness;
                15*And*your*feet*shod*with*the*preparation*of*the* gospel*of*peace;
                16*Above*all,*taking*the*shield*of*faith,*wherewit h*ye*shall*be*able*to*quench*all*the*fiery*darts*o f*the*wicked.
                17*And*take*the*helmet*of*salvation,*and*the*sword *of*the*Spirit,*which*is*the*word*of*God:

                The*law*of*the*Spirit*of*life*in*Christ,*is*what*m akes*us*free*from*the*law*that*is*both*sin*and*dea th.

                The*RIGHTEOUSNESS*OF*THE*LAW*IS*FULFILLED*IN*US,*w ho*walk*not*after*the*flesh(as*per*first*covenant) *but*after*the*Spirit*in*this*covenant*of*Christ.

                Israel*cannot*attain*the*law*of*righteousness,*as* the*faith*was*not*given*to*them*to*believe*in*Chri st,*only*pride*of*man*to*try*to*establish*their*ow n*righteousness,*stumbling*at*the*stumblingstone,* not*being*clothed*(of*the*Spirit*of*Christ)*to*not *be*ashamed*calling*in*truth.*Christ*is*the*end*of *the*law*for*righteousness,*not*the*ending*of*it,* but*the*establishment*of*it,*in*us..

                Romans*8:2*For*the*law*of*the*Spirit*of*life*in*Ch rist*Jesus*hath*made*me*free*from*the*law*of*sin*a nd*death.

                Romans*8:3*For*what*the*law*could*not*do,*in*that* it*was*weak*through*the*flesh,*God*sending*his*own *Son*in*the*likeness*of*sinful*flesh,*and*for*sin, *condemned*sin*in*the*flesh:

                Romans*8:4*That*the*righteousness*of*the*law*might *be*fulfilled*in*us,*who*walk*not*after*the*flesh, *but*after*the*Spirit.

                Romans*9:31*But*Israel,*which*followed*after*the*l aw*of*righteousness,*hath*not*attained*to*the*law* of*righteousness.

                Romans*9:32*Wherefore?*Because*they*sought*it*not* by*faith,*but*as*it*were*by*the*works*of*the*law.* For*they*stumbled*at*that*stumblingstone;
                33*As*it*is*written,*Behold,*I*lay*in*Sion*a*stumb lingstone*and*rock*of*offence:*and*whosoever*belie veth*on*him*shall*not*be*ashamed.

                Romans*10:*1*Brethren,*my*heart's*desire*and*praye r*to*God*for*Israel*is,*that*they*might*be*saved.
                2*For*I*bear*them*record*that*they*have*a*zeal*of* God,*but*not*according*to*knowledge.
                3*For*they*being*ignorant*of*God's*righteousness,* and*going*about*to*establish*their*own*righteousne ss,*have*not*submitted*themselves*unto*the*righteo usness*of*God.
                4*For*Christ*is*the*end*of*the*law*for*righteousne ss*to*every*one*that*believeth.


                We*conclude*a*man*is*justified*by*faith*without*th e*deeds*of*the*law(not*following*it*as*a*man*follo ws*of*the*flesh)*but*through*faith*we*do*not*make* void*the*law,*we*establish*it*in*us..

                Romans*3:28*Therefore*we*conclude*that*a*man*is*ju stified*by*faith*without*the*deeds*of*the*law.

                Romans*3:31*Do*we*then*make*void*the*law*through*f aith?*God*forbid:*yea,*we*establish*the*law.


                To*fulfil*the*royal*law,*to*love*our*neighbour*as* ourselves.

                To*not*be*convinced*as*transgressors*of*that*law,* but*to*do*as*those*who*WILL*BE*JUDGED*by*the*same* law*of*liberty,*knowing*God*will*judge*without*mer cy,*those*who*showed*no*mercy..

                James*2:8*If*ye*fulfil*the*royal*law*according*to* the*scripture,*Thou*shalt*love*thy*neighbour*as*th yself,*ye*do*well:
                9*But*if*ye*have*respect*to*persons,*ye*commit*sin ,*and*are*convinced*of*the*law*as*transgressors.
                10*For*whosoever*shall*keep*the*whole*law,*and*yet *offend*in*one*point,*he*is*guilty*of*all.
                11*For*he*that*said,*Do*not*commit*adultery,*said* also,*Do*not*kill.*Now*if*thou*commit*no*adultery, *yet*if*thou*kill,*thou*art*become*a*transgressor* of*the*law.
                12*So*speak*ye,*and*so*do,*as*they*that*shall*be*j udged*by*the*law*of*liberty.
                13*For*he*shall*have*judgment*without*mercy,*that* hath*shewed*no*mercy;*and*mercy*rejoiceth*against* judgment.

                Women*to*keep*silence*in*the*churches,*commanded*t o*be*under*obedience,*as*also*says*the*law..

                1*Corinthians*14:34*Let*your*women*keep*silence*in *the*churches:*for*it*is*not*permitted*unto*them*t o*speak;*but*they*are*commanded*to*be*under*obedie nce*as*also*saith*the*law.

                Not*running*uncertainly,*but*keeping*under*our*boy *bringing*it*into*subjection,*to*not*be*hypocrites ..

                1*Corinthians*9:26*I*therefore*so*run,*not*as*unce rtainly;*so*fight*I,*not*as*one*that*beateth*the*a ir:
                27*But*I*keep*under*my*body,*and*bring*it*into*sub jection:*lest*that*by*any*means,*when*I*have*preac hed*to*others,*I*myself*should*be*a*castaway.

                The*law*that*was*contained*in*ordinances*through*t he*flesh*abolished,*a*new*man*made.

                The*law*was*not*made*for*righteous*men,*but*for*th e*lawless*and*disobedient*ungodly*and*sinners.

                There*was*by*necessity*a*change*of*the*law(change* not*ending)

                Not*made*after*a*carnal*mans*commandment*for*His*l aw,*but*after*the*power*of*an*endless*life,*(the*f irst*law*we*died*in,*the*second*we*have*power*to*b elieve*and*keep*and*not*die.)

                Ephesians*2:15*Having*abolished*in*his*flesh*the*e nmity,*even*the*law*of*commandments*contained*in*o rdinances;*for*to*make*in*himself*of*twain*one*new *man,*so*making*peace;

                1*Timothy*1:9*Knowing*this,*that*the*law*is*not*ma de*for*a*righteous*man,*but*for*the*lawless*and*di sobedient,*for*the*ungodly*and*for*sinners,*for*un holy*and*profane,*for*murderers*of*fathers*and*mur derers*of*mothers,*for*manslayers,

                Hebrews*7:12*For*the*priesthood*being*changed,*the re*is*made*of*necessity*a*change*also*of*the*law.

                Hebrews*7:16*Who*is*made,*not*after*the*law*of*a*c arnal*commandment,*but*after*the*power*of*an*endle ss*life.


                To*believe*in*and*look*into*this*perfect*law*of*li berty,*to*continue*in*it,*not*be*a*forgetful*heare r*as*men*are,*but*be*a*doer*of*the*work,*then*we*a re*blessed*in*our*deed.

                James*1:25*But*whoso*looketh*into*the*perfect*law* of*liberty,*and*continueth*therein,*he*being*not*a *forgetful*hearer,*but*a*doer*of*the*work,*this*ma n*shall*be*blessed*in*his*deed.


                Galatians*3*showed*them*turning*away,*now*we*see*a nyone*who*became*enlightened,*in*revelation*in*the *knowledge*of*Him,*and*they*fall*away,*cannot*poss ibly*renew*again*to*repentence.

                Ephesians*1:17*That*the*God*of*our*Lord*Jesus*Chri st,*the*Father*of*glory,*may*give*unto*you*the*spi rit*of*wisdom*and*revelation*in*the*knowledge*of*h im:
                18*The*eyes*of*your*understanding*being*enlightene d;*that*ye*may*know*what*is*the*hope*of*his*callin g,*and*what*the*riches*of*the*glory*of*his*inherit ance*in*the*saints,

                Hebrews*6:*4*For*it*is*impossible*for*those*who*we re*once*enlightened,*and*have*tasted*of*the*heaven ly*gift,*and*were*made*partakers*of*the*Holy*Ghost ,
                5*And*have*tasted*the*good*word*of*God,*and*the*po wers*of*the*world*to*come,
                6*If*they*shall*fall*away,*to*renew*them*again*unt o*repentance;*seeing*they*crucify*to*themselves*th e*Son*of*God*afresh,*and*put*him*to*an*open*shame.
                7*For*the*earth*which*drinketh*in*the*rain*that*co meth*oft*upon*it,*and*bringeth*forth*herbs*meet*fo r*them*by*whom*it*is*dressed,*receiveth*blessing*f rom*God:
                8*But*that*which*beareth*thorns*and*briers*is*reje cted,*and*is*nigh*unto*cursing;*whose*end*is*to*be *burned.
                9*But,*beloved,*we*are*persuaded*better*things*of* you,*and*things*that*accompany*salvation,*though*w e*thus*speak.


                Galatians*5*spoke*about*them*falling*from*grace,*i f*we*sin*wilfully*after*we*have*received*the*knowl edge*of*the*truth,*there*is*no*more*sacrifice*o*be *made*for*us,*it*is*sore*punishment*to*tread*under *foot*the*Son*of*God*and*to*do*this*despite*the*Sp irit*of*grace..

                Hebrews*10:26*For*if*we*sin*wilfully*after*that*we *have*received*the*knowledge*of*the*truth,*there*r emaineth*no*more*sacrifice*for*sins,
                27*But*a*certain*fearful*looking*for*of*judgment*a nd*fiery*indignation,*which*shall*devour*the*adver saries.
                28*He*that*despised*Moses'*law*died*without*mercy* under*two*or*three*witnesses:
                29*Of*how*much*sorer*punishment,*suppose*ye,*shall *he*be*thought*worthy,*who*hath*trodden*under*foot *the*Son*of*God,*and*hath*counted*the*blood*of*the *covenant,*wherewith*he*was*sanctified,*an*unholy* thing,*and*hath*done*despite*unto*the*Spirit*of*gr ace?

                Escaping*the*pollutions*of*the*world*through*the*k nowledge*of*the*Lord*and*Saviour*Jesus*Christ,*but *become*entangled*in*again(in*sin)*they*turn*from* the*holy*commandment*delivered*unto*them*as*they*d o*not*think*these*are*commandments,*they*were*wash ed*but*return*to*their*filth*and*their*vomit..

                1*Corinthians*14:37*If*any*man*think*himself*to*be *a*prophet,*or*spiritual,*let*him*acknowledge*that *the*things*that*I*write*unto*you*are*the*commandm ents*of*the*Lord.

                2*Peter*2:20*For*if*after*they*have*escaped*the*po llutions*of*the*world*through*the*knowledge*of*the *Lord*and*Saviour*Jesus*Christ,*they*are*again*ent angled*therein,*and*overcome,*the*latter*end*is*wo rse*with*them*than*the*beginning.
                21*For*it*had*been*better*for*them*not*to*have*kno wn*the*way*of*righteousness,*than,*after*they*have *known*it,*to*turn*from*the*holy*commandment*deliv ered*unto*them.
                22*But*it*is*happened*unto*them*according*to*the*t rue*proverb,*The*dog*is*turned*to*his*own*vomit*ag ain;*and*the*sow*that*was*washed*to*her*wallowing* in*the*mire.

                These*ungodly*men*turn*the*grace*of*our*God*into*l asciviousness,*into*lust*which*is*the*sin*they*com mit.

                They*defile*the*flesh*and*speak*against*dignities.

                Jude*1:4*For*there*are*certain*men*crept*in*unawar es,*who*were*before*of*old*ordained*to*this*condem nation,*ungodly*men,*turning*the*grace*of*our*God* into*lasciviousness,*and*denying*the*only*Lord*God ,*and*our*Lord*Jesus*Christ.

                Jude*1:8*Likewise*also*these*filthy*dreamers*defil e*the*flesh,*despise*dominion,*and*speak*evil*of*d ignities.

                They*are*defiled*and*unbelieving,*and*nothing*is*p ure*to*them,*they*say*they*know*God,*but*the*truth *is,*in*works*they*deny*Him,*being*abominable*and* disobedient*and*unto*every*good*work*of*Christ,*th ey*are*reprobate,*morally*abandoned.

                But*unto*the*pure...ALL*THINGS*ARE*PURE,*And*every *man*that*hath*this*hope*in*him*purifieth*himself, *even*as*he*is*pure.

                Sin*is*the*transgression*of*the*law,*they*both*tra nsgress*and*deny*there*is*any*law*to*always*keep.

                Titus*1:15*Unto*the*pure*all*things*are*pure:*but* unto*them*that*are*defiled*and*unbelieving*is*noth ing*pure;*but*even*their*mind*and*conscience*is*de filed.
                16*They*profess*that*they*know*God;*but*in*works*t hey*deny*him,*being*abominable,*and*disobedient,*a nd*unto*every*good*work*reprobate.

                1*John*3:3*And*every*man*that*hath*this*hope*in*hi m*purifieth*himself,*even*as*he*is*pure.

                1*John*3:4*Whosoever*committeth*sin*transgresseth* also*the*law:*for*sin*is*the*transgression*of*the* law.
                5*And*ye*know*that*he*was*manifested*to*take*away* our*sins;*and*in*him*is*no*sin.

                Comment


                • Re: sinner

                  "If to be free from the law you must follow it, then you are being judged by it. How can you be made free of something which continues to be the standard over you?"

                  We are free from the law that we were held into and dead in it, ( in flesh as man) and made a new creature, of the Spirit, quickened together with Christ, and the law is not standard over us it was made for the lawless and disobedient, but now we seek by faith, and it is obedience of faith as we see in all Christ did while here on earth for us, and how the Holy Apostles walked the same ways for all our examples to follow after. The law needed to be changed, magnified, made honourable, it was, and so were we.

                  Comment


                  • Re: sinner

                    Originally posted by Aviyah View Post
                    Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works; and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness." (James 2)

                    I take it to mean he was justified in his actions because they proved that he believed God. If he didn't sacrifice Isaac, he wouldn't have been justified because it wouldn't have fulfilled "Abraham believed God," and would have been a false faith. Paul speaking of "faith apart from works" is talking about the law or sin/conscience. So if we believe (and act on belief), this is what justifies us.

                    But the action doesn't have to do with sin/obedience/law (none of the examples which James or Hebrews give for believing actions are matters of right and wrong). They are works which justified the people who acted on what they heard from God. So then the question would be, what action do we take that justifies us or "fulfills" our faith?:

                    "Show no partiality as you hold the faith in our Lord Jesus Christ." (James 2)
                    As I have loved you, so also you must love one another. By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you love one another. (John 13)
                    Supplement your faith with ... brotherly affection, and brotherly affection with love ... (2 Peter 1)

                    So I think the work does justify, but only in the sense of proving the faith (read: belief only). This is why in the judgment of Christ, He will be dividing people based on actions of love and not merely who calls Him "Lord." Same concept James is illustrating, I think.
                    Had Abraham put Isaac on the alter without faith, would it have justified ? Of course not because that's a moot point.. FAITH was the very reason he DID put Isaac on the alter. It was the cause to the effect. I see your point, but if at any time we substitute faith for works , watch out. Faith produces works. Without works there is no foundation of faith. With faith there is an unstoppable result of works.

                    Comment


                    • Re: sinner

                      Originally posted by gordon777 View Post
                      James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
                      22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
                      23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.



                      "Abraham placing Isaac on the alter is NOT what justified him. Your works, just like Abrahams, do not justify. "

                      Because you deny what is testified makes you true?


                      I am saying t orightly divide what the word is saying in the context of the entirety of scripture. You've managed to isolate the scriptures of the law.

                      Comment


                      • Re: sinner

                        God manifested His love by sending His only begotten Son into the world to die for us as sacrifice for our sins.

                        1 John 4:9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.

                        By faith Abraham offered up Isaac, His only begotten son, and received the promises of faith((the promise of eternal life through faith in Christ) saying, in thy seed(one seed Christ) shall thy seed be called, Abraham showing God able to raise Isaac(the one seed is Christ/Isaac) even from the dead, receiving him as the figure of Christ..

                        Hebrews 11:17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,
                        18 Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:
                        19 Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.

                        Galatians 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

                        Now we know the significance and description of James 2:20-26.

                        Abraham was justified by offering Isaac, as this receives the seed who raises from the dead..Christ by faith for all of us.

                        This is receiving what is perfect in faith, as this is receiving Christ for us.

                        Without this faith offering by Abraham(work of faith) there is no life.

                        You speak blasphemy to not recognise what God is talking about here in James 2:24, to be justified and justification, it is the justification of receiiving that figure which is Christ.

                        James 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
                        21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
                        22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
                        23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
                        24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
                        25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
                        26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

                        Philippians 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
                        10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;

                        Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

                        Galatians 2:17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.



                        Now you might recognise the spiritual meaning to what is testified there, by works was faith made perfect as what was perfect was received by that work of faith by Abraham and here it is confirmed.

                        Hebrews 11:19 Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.


                        James 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?


                        1 Corinthians 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.


                        Hebrews 9:11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;

                        Comment


                        • Re: sinner

                          All of the scriptures posted are more proof that works are a byproduct of GENUINE faith. Amen. No one is disagreeing with this. But works do not justify, faith justifies and works are proof of that justification.

                          Comment


                          • Re: sinner

                            Romans 1 vs. 17 - "For in the Gospel the righteousness of God is revealed - a righteousness that is BY FAITH from first to last, just as it is written : "The righteous will live by faith."

                            Faith is the power source for works.
                            Faith is the power source for justification.
                            Faith is the power source for a genuine relationship with God.
                            Faith is the power source that enable us to love the unlovable.
                            Faith is the power source that helps us to finish our race.

                            But faith in and of itself is useless. It's the object of our faith that does all of the above. FAITH IN CHRIST JESUS ALONE, AND IN NO OTHER OBJECT, IDEA, OR WORK OF THE FLESH.
                            We begin in faith and end in faith.

                            Works will occur if the object of our faith is Christ.
                            Works will prove our faith.
                            Works are empowered through the Holy Spirit.
                            Works in and of themselves do not justify.
                            Works are inevitable for a genuine follower of Jesus.

                            Comment


                            • Re: sinner

                              Originally posted by gordon777 View Post
                              Maverick, your own opinion is on the beginning of this thread, and your private assumption of Romans 7, that it is not for Christians, and I say, it is for Christians if, it is for Christians who say Lord Lord to Christ, and He says I never knew you, all you workers of iniquity.
                              Those "Christians" who say "Lord, Lord" put their trust in good works. Never once did they say "But we trusted in You, Jesus." For His part, Jesus never knew them. He didn't know them at one point, but never knew them. Good works don't save. Never have and that is something we need to take from that terrifying passage where Jesus says "Depart from Me... for I never knew you." Anything not done in faith is sin. That passage shows us where those folks put their trust... in their works and it was not enough.

                              God bless!
                              Matt 9:13
                              13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
                              NASU

                              Comment


                              • Re: sinner

                                Originally posted by gordon777 View Post
                                God manifested His love by sending His only begotten Son into the world to die for us as sacrifice for our sins.

                                1 John 4:9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.

                                By faith Abraham offered up Isaac, His only begotten son, and received the promises of faith((the promise of eternal life through faith in Christ) saying, in thy seed(one seed Christ) shall thy seed be called, Abraham showing God able to raise Isaac(the one seed is Christ/Isaac) even from the dead, receiving him as the figure of Christ..

                                Hebrews 11:17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,
                                18 Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:
                                19 Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.

                                Galatians 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

                                Now we know the significance and description of James 2:20-26.

                                Abraham was justified by offering Isaac, as this receives the seed who raises from the dead..Christ by faith for all of us.

                                This is receiving what is perfect in faith, as this is receiving Christ for us.

                                Without this faith offering by Abraham(work of faith) there is no life.

                                You speak blasphemy to not recognise what God is talking about here in James 2:24, to be justified and justification, it is the justification of receiiving that figure which is Christ.

                                James 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
                                21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
                                22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
                                23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
                                24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
                                25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
                                26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

                                Philippians 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
                                10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;

                                Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

                                Galatians 2:17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.



                                Now you might recognise the spiritual meaning to what is testified there, by works was faith made perfect as what was perfect was received by that work of faith by Abraham and here it is confirmed.

                                Hebrews 11:19 Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.


                                James 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?


                                1 Corinthians 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.


                                Hebrews 9:11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
                                I am not speaking blasphemy. Your are judging your brothers and in fact are not exercising the good works of faith as outlined in 1st Corinthians 13.

                                Not one person here is saying a Christian will not have works . You need to understand that. A Christian WILL have good works , no doubt. That's been repeated several times and you continually repeat the same verses of scripture without dialogue or conversation as to what they actually mean. Also, you should know that there have been MANY others come and go on this board preaching sinless perfectionism, justification by works, and every other sort of doctrine that one can imagine.

                                I would ask you brother - whose doctrine is closer to Jesus' example of interaction with both believers, and non - believers ? Your doctrine of works sounds eerily like that of the Pharisee's. Christ was compassionate toward messed up sinners, though He never watered down the message. He certainly didn't put a yoke of works around the tax collectors, or the sinners He interacted with. See the woman at the well. See the Roman Centurion. See Nicodemus. See his continual patience with the apostle's. Is this something you would like to discuss, or are you just going to recite more of James 2 ? And for the record, I love James 2.

                                Comment

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