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  • #16
    Re: Hebrews 6:4-6

    Originally posted by mailmandan View Post
    Interesting post. I've heard three different interpretations for Hebrews 6:4-6 (hypothetical view, lost salvation view, never truly saved view) but am not convinced that it teaches a really "saved" person actually "lost their salvation." In the portion that addresses those who were ‘enlightened’, have ‘tasted of the heavenly gift’, and were ‘made partakers of the Holy Ghost.’ The writer of Hebrews the writer does not state that these individuals were "indwelled by the Holy Spirit" or "sealed by the Holy Spirit" or "or received the Spirit's pledge (guarantee) of future inheritance." Verse 9 sums it up for me. The writer is speaking to those truly saved (BELOVED). He says that even though he speaks like this concerning THOSE types of people, He is convinced of better things concerning YOU. Things that ACCOMPANY SALVATION. Thorns and briars and falling away do not accompany salvation.
    Yes, I'm OSAS and Predestinarian. God foreknows people who He has chosen to be Saved. Those who reject Salvation choose not to be Saved. God has not foreknown them, but wishes them to be Saved, regardless. I confess--I don't know how this works. I've only seen it in reality over the last several decades.

    I can tell when people are really saved. They don't just have the knowledge of Salvation, nor do they only have the experience of Christ's Spirit. Much more, they have a heart-felt love for Christ. It has nothing to do with how many times they sin or fall away. They in their heart of hearts love Christ.

    I have to admit I have indeed seen friends who truly loved Christ, who truly were born again Christians, fall away, completely denying Christ. But I've also discovered that some of this has a very apparent cause, usually associated with a bitter experience. In other words, the apostasy may be an emotional response, and not actually real.

    But it's very serious this matter of repeated sinning, or even serious sins. For these there are serious consequences. Forget getting damned--it ain't gonna happen. If you care, you won't be there. You won't be damned. But who wants to be punished? God wants us to be sanctified, and will go to extremes to get the sins out of us, if we are willing. It is worth it to God in the long run.

    So what actually is the point in Hebrews here? I think it's that if the basis of Salvation is given up, there is really no other basis for Salvation. If you refuse to go to the well, you're not going to get it out of the sand.

    The argument is that in reality, there is only one basis for Salvation, and that is Christ. Some will reject him, and try to find "Salvation" some other way. But there is no other way. For those wanting Salvation, we are counselled to persist in our effort to be found one predestined and chosen by Christ. In doing so we will not only find peace for our souls, but we can learn to avoid painful mistakes.

    Comment


    • #17
      Re: Hebrews 6:4-6

      Mailman talked about sealed, but does not read what is told fully.

      Sealed is not the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowing of Christ, it is the belief we have as a person...

      Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
      14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
      15 Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,
      16 Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers;
      17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
      18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,

      We see the last words above, say, the eyes of your understanding being enlightened.

      That interpretes itself, who this is.."For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened"

      Hebrews 6: 4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
      5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
      6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
      7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
      8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
      9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

      Everyone who then bears thorns and briars is rejected, the tares, those who gathered grapes of thorns and thistles, end is to be burned, all gathered who offend and work iniquity and cast into a furnace of fire, severing the wicked from among the just, so we should hear this warning now, or disregard it as everybody seems to think ?

      I can tell you the good part though, people who only know struggling have not known the truth yet, now we have our chance, stop listening to people, hear only the Lord, God cannot lie. lose our life to find it again, have your hunger entirely and only for God, and we will never taste anything else ever again, and begin to walk rightly for the first time, as it is a narrow path few find remember. My advice includes to hear nobody who thinks they have right to teach us about Christ, go only to the Lord, thirst for only His words and you shall be filled.

      Matthew 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

      Matthew 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
      41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
      42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
      43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

      Matthew 13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
      50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

      Comment


      • #18
        Re: Hebrews 6:4-6

        Loving God is keeping His commandments, to love the children of God, sinning is hating them..

        1 John 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

        1 John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

        2 John 1:6 And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.




        John 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

        1 John 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

        1 John 3:14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.
        1 John 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

        1 John 4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

        1 John 4:20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?

        Romans 13:10Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

        Comment


        • #19
          Re: Hebrews 6:4-6

          Originally posted by Mr King View Post
          what's the difference between falling away and struggling with sin and keeping in repentance? I've sinned and repented, sinned and repented but fear that if I've been forgiven but fell fell back into drinking alcohol, smoking, lust, then repent again, but that means I'm no longer forgiven?
          Falling away suggests turning one's back to God, as in backsliding into apostasy. Many Christians continue to struggle with one vice or another, I am however not sure whether that means they will no longer be forgiven?

          Comment


          • #20
            Re: Hebrews 6:4-6

            Originally posted by journeyman View Post
            I believe this passage is speaking of the resurrection,

            to renew them (Heb.6::6)

            "Renew" meaning raise anyone from death

            again unto repentance (Heb.6:6)

            to what wasn't sown beforehand (also vss.7-8)
            How can the resurrected ever fall away? Heb 9:27 "says it's appointed unto men once to die but AFTER this the judgment" meaning there's no repentance after death.

            Comment


            • #21
              Re: Hebrews 6:4-6

              Originally posted by Mr King View Post
              what's the difference between falling away and struggling with sin and keeping in repentance? I've sinned and repented, sinned and repented but fear that if I've been forgiven but fell fell back into drinking alcohol, smoking, lust, then repent again, but that means I'm no longer forgiven?
              Mr King, it looks like you are dealing with past bouts of depression. I have been there. After retiring from the missions field, God let a spirit of depression overtake me. Like you, I stated making bad decisions and began to doubt my salvation. I yo-yoed in and out of sinful behavior for some years. Had God ever given up on me? I don't think so.

              I took a giant step in faith to enter the missions field. The Lord let my health fall apart and dried up the mission work. That's when the depression started. Then, I had to deal with my extended family for the next 20 years. My faith was barely acknowledged among my family. It's tough to deal with family (see John 4:44). I think God was preparing me for a future work.

              Today, I feel God directing my walk with Christ again. I have since authored 2 Christian books and have a website ministry. You'll find it: HERE. I am however much more humble than I once was. My advice, start making good decisions and know that God still loves you. If depression strikes again, don't beat yourself up. Trust God for deliverance.
              John 15:17 "These things I command you, that ye love one another."

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: Hebrews 6:4-6

                Originally posted by mailmandan View Post
                Interesting post. I've heard three different interpretations for Hebrews 6:4-6 (hypothetical view, lost salvation view, never truly saved view) but am not convinced that it teaches a really "saved" person actually "lost their salvation." In the portion that addresses those who were ‘enlightened’, have ‘tasted of the heavenly gift’, and were ‘made partakers of the Holy Ghost.’ The writer of Hebrews the writer does not state that these individuals were "indwelled by the Holy Spirit" or "sealed by the Holy Spirit" or "or received the Spirit's pledge (guarantee) of future inheritance." Verse 9 sums it up for me. The writer is speaking to those truly saved (BELOVED). He says that even though he speaks like this concerning THOSE types of people, He is convinced of better things concerning YOU. Things that ACCOMPANY SALVATION. Thorns and briars and falling away do not accompany salvation.
                Heb 6:4-6 is a constantly recurring theme. I am of the view that it refers to the possibility of a saved person losing their salvation.

                According to you, the writer (in my view, it is Paul: vide chapters 10:34 & 13:23) "did not state the individuals were indwelt by the Holy Spirit". But this is not true. Verse 4 says "For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,. If the HEAVENLY GIFT and partaking of the HOLY GHOST isn't the receipt of the Paraclete indwelling a believer, I don't know what it is!

                Many believers, unfortunately, have been falsely taught and are hung up on the once-saved-ever-saved, doctrine. IOW, they believe that being saved is a get-out-of-jail-free-card that guarantees them salvation irrespective of how they live after being saved, whether they carry their cross and follow or Christ or not. Nothing is more misleading and injurious to the body of Christ than this errant school of thought. If once saved, ever saved is true, then the injunction to abide in Christ till the end, [end denoting end of mortal life] has to be pointless and irrelevant, isn't it?

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: Hebrews 6:4-6

                  Hi Mr King

                  The Christian walk isn't an easy one. We must all "work out our own salvation with fear and trembling." I'd just like to give you a word of encouragement to hang in there and not to lose faith. It's a walk of faith; faith that Christ lives within us when we believe and welcome Him in. This happens by a miracle from God. It's not always easy to know that anything has actually happened but we must accept it by faith in God's Word. Christian growth is a process of letting Christ grow stronger within us and letting go of the things of this world. The Holy Spirit helps us with this. If you've repented and given your life to Christ, God won't let go of you that easily. He always wants what's best for us so let him love you. Keep reading your Bible and find a good Bible-believing church home where you can be nurtured.

                  Cheers.
                  Love is patient, love is kind; it does not envy, it does not boast; it is not arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth. Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never ends.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: Hebrews 6:4-6

                    Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
                    How can the resurrected ever fall away?
                    They can't. They rejected Jesus in this life and die in that state, so renewing anyone to repentance after that isn't possible.

                    Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
                    Heb 9:27 "says it's appointed unto men once to die but AFTER this the judgment" meaning there's no repentance after death.
                    Right,

                    He that is unjust (and dies in that state), let him be unjust still (in the resurrection) Rev.22:11

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: Hebrews 6:4-6

                      Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
                      Heb 6:4-6 is a constantly recurring theme. I am of the view that it refers to the possibility of a saved person losing their salvation.

                      According to you, the writer (in my view, it is Paul: vide chapters 10:34 & 13:23) "did not state the individuals were indwelt by the Holy Spirit". But this is not true. Verse 4 says "For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,. If the HEAVENLY GIFT and partaking of the HOLY GHOST isn't the receipt of the Paraclete indwelling a believer, I don't know what it is!

                      Many believers, unfortunately, have been falsely taught and are hung up on the once-saved-ever-saved, doctrine. IOW, they believe that being saved is a get-out-of-jail-free-card that guarantees them salvation irrespective of how they live after being saved, whether they carry their cross and follow or Christ or not. Nothing is more misleading and injurious to the body of Christ than this errant school of thought. If once saved, ever saved is true, then the injunction to abide in Christ till the end, [end denoting end of mortal life] has to be pointless and irrelevant, isn't it?
                      I disagree, many believers have been falsely taught on the NOSAS doctrine. They can't grow in their faith but keep returning to the laying of foundation of repentance of dead works. The Hebrew writer tells us that it is impossible to be saved again if you would fall away, because of crucifying Christ again. It is like a yo-yo not going anywhere. To know your salvation is of God and knowing it is because of Him that you are sealed and guaranteed is to free you in your gratitude and walk with Him. This gives you the confidence to endure, because you know it is not because of you but because of Him. Because your salvation is sure your gratitude is so much greater and your willingness to obey God in your walk with Him in sanctification. If you falsely belief that this will let you walk in sin, because you are saved, then you have no gratitude or knowledge and relationship with Christ or the Spirit.

                      As Dan said v9 makes it clear that the writer does not believe that the previous were applicable to them the beloved. There are many places Scripture confirms this assurance of our salvation and would it not be pointless if it was not the truth?

                      Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
                      Heb 6:4-6 is a constantly recurring theme. I am of the view that it refers to the possibility of a saved person losing their salvation.

                      According to you, the writer (in my view, it is Paul: vide chapters 10:34 & 13:23) "did not state the individuals were indwelt by the Holy Spirit". But this is not true. Verse 4 says "For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,. If the HEAVENLY GIFT and partaking of the HOLY GHOST isn't the receipt of the Paraclete indwelling a believer, I don't know what it is!

                      Many believers, unfortunately, have been falsely taught and are hung up on the once-saved-ever-saved, doctrine. IOW, they believe that being saved is a get-out-of-jail-free-card that guarantees them salvation irrespective of how they live after being saved, whether they carry their cross and follow or Christ or not. Nothing is more misleading and injurious to the body of Christ than this errant school of thought. If once saved, ever saved is true, then the injunction to abide in Christ till the end, [end denoting end of mortal life] has to be pointless and irrelevant, isn't it?
                      I disagree, many believers have been falsely taught on the NOSAS doctrine. They can't grow in their faith but keep returning to the laying of foundation of repentance of dead works. The Hebrew writer tells us that it is impossible to be saved again if you would fall away, because of crucifying Christ again. It is like a yo-yo not going anywhere. To know your salvation is of God and knowing it is because of Him that you are sealed and guaranteed is to free you in your gratitude and walk with Him. This gives you the confidence to endure, because you know it is not because of you but because of Him. Because your salvation is sure your gratitude is so much greater and your willingness to obey God in your walk with Him in sanctification. If you falsely belief that this will let you walk in sin, because you are saved, then you have no gratitude or knowledge and relationship with Christ or the Spirit.

                      As Dan said v9 makes it clear that the writer does not believe that the previous were applicable to them the beloved. There are many places Scripture confirms this assurance of our salvation and would it not be pointless if it was not the truth?

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: Hebrews 6:4-6

                        Many are called and few are chosen, narrow is the way and few find it, this is what is sure, and that is why many say they are saved and will not be, and why few hope against hope sit low and wait for the Lord to exalt them, if He will.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: Hebrews 6:4-6

                          Originally posted by journeyman View Post
                          They can't. They rejected Jesus in this life and die in that state, so renewing anyone to repentance after that isn't possible.

                          Right. He that is unjust (and dies in that state), let him be unjust still (in the resurrection) Rev.22:11
                          I'm glad you concur. Thanks.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Re: Hebrews 6:4-6

                            Originally posted by Kalahari View Post
                            I disagree, many believers have been falsely taught on the NOSAS doctrine. They can't grow in their faith but keep returning to the laying of foundation of repentance of dead works. The Hebrew writer tells us that it is impossible to be saved again if you would fall away, because of crucifying Christ again. It is like a yo-yo not going anywhere. To know your salvation is of God and knowing it is because of Him that you are sealed and guaranteed is to free you in your gratitude and walk with Him. This gives you the confidence to endure, because you know it is not because of you but because of Him. Because your salvation is sure your gratitude is so much greater and your willingness to obey God in your walk with Him in sanctification. If you falsely belief that this will let you walk in sin, because you are saved, then you have no gratitude or knowledge and relationship with Christ or the Spirit.

                            As Dan said v9 makes it clear that the writer does not believe that the previous were applicable to them the beloved. There are many places Scripture confirms this assurance of our salvation and would it not be pointless if it was not the truth?
                            My position is based 100% on scripture. But you provided none in support of your position. It might well be a typo, but you didn't include the chapter in Dan that is supposedly the smoking gun for your position.

                            This is an inexhaustible debate and it won't end with you. Christians should be taught to understand that being saved is not irrevocable should the believer chose to turn his back to God and die in that state. Some Christians are uncomfortable when they hear they can lose their salvation if they fail to abide steadfastly in Christ till the end. Consequently, they attack the idea with everything they have. But no one can fight the word of God and win.

                            Often we see some believers write in flowing words about their walk with God. One can only hope and pray that such claims are equally true before Jesus who sees the hearts of men. But sometimes one can't help but wonder whether some of these claims are purely for the benefit of readers here? Believers should have a proper understanding of scripture rather than the all too comfortable and misleading interpretation that leads to perdition.

                            If salvation cannot be lost, scripture would not have warned in many places that he that endures (Matt 24:13) abides, persevere, overcomes (Rev 2:26; 3:5) to the end shall be saved. And this proviso is directed at saved believers, not the world. Yet some gladly ignore it in favour of a pretty bad interpretation that appeals to the flesh. God is true and immutable in his promise but it's contingent upon us remaining faithful to him to the end of life. If in doubt whether one can lose grace and God's favour because of sin and disobedience, ask ancient Israel.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Re: Hebrews 6:4-6

                              OSAS simply isn't defensible. I used to have my doubts but there are many scriptures which warn believers not to "shipwreck their faith." For example from Hebrews 3:12-19:
                              See to it, brothers, that none of you has a wicked heart of unbelief that turns away from the living God. But exhort one another daily, as long as it is called today, so that none of you may be hardened by sin’s deceitfulness. We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly to the end the assurance we had at first. As it has been said:

                              'Today, if you hear His voice,
                              do not harden your hearts,
                              as you did in the rebellion.'

                              For who were the ones who heard and rebelled? Were they not all those Moses led out of Egypt? And with whom was God angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the wilderness? And to whom did He swear that they would never enter His rest? Was it not to those who disobeyed? So we see that it was because of their unbelief that they were unable to enter."

                              All the people were rescued from bondage but not all entered the promised land because of their unbelief. They believed when they were led out of bondage but later rebelled. The author of Hebrews is addressing believers and admonishing them to remain faithful.
                              "For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins. . ."—Hebrews 10:26.

                              I don't agree with the idea that the only way a person can grow and mature in Christ is by the assurance they can never lose their salvation; in fact, the opposite seems more likely. That is, if a person thinks they can never lose their salvation this is a strong incentive to sin. A stronger motivator, it seems to me, is if a persons understands that if they turn their back on God He'll turn His on them. ("The Fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom."—Proverbs 9:10) I think it takes a lot for this to happen; God has great patience and doesn't want anyone to perish, but I believe it is possible.
                              "But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved."—Matthew 24:13
                              Love is patient, love is kind; it does not envy, it does not boast; it is not arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth. Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never ends.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Re: Hebrews 6:4-6

                                Originally posted by pdun459 View Post
                                OSAS simply isn't defensible. I used to have my doubts but there are many scriptures which warn believers not to "shipwreck their faith." For example from Hebrews 3:12-19:
                                See to it, brothers, that none of you has a wicked heart of unbelief that turns away from the living God. But exhort one another daily, as long as it is called today, so that none of you may be hardened by sin’s deceitfulness. We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly to the end the assurance we had at first. As it has been said:

                                'Today, if you hear His voice,
                                do not harden your hearts,
                                as you did in the rebellion.'

                                For who were the ones who heard and rebelled? Were they not all those Moses led out of Egypt? And with whom was God angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the wilderness? And to whom did He swear that they would never enter His rest? Was it not to those who disobeyed? So we see that it was because of their unbelief that they were unable to enter."

                                All the people were rescued from bondage but not all entered the promised land because of their unbelief. They believed when they were led out of bondage but later rebelled. The author of Hebrews is addressing believers and admonishing them to remain faithful.
                                "For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins. . ."—Hebrews 10:26.

                                I don't agree with the idea that the only way a person can grow and mature in Christ is by the assurance they can never lose their salvation; in fact, the opposite seems more likely. That is, if a person thinks they can never lose their salvation this is a strong incentive to sin. A stronger motivator, it seems to me, is if a persons understands that if they turn their back on God He'll turn His on them. ("The Fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom."—Proverbs 9:10) I think it takes a lot for this to happen; God has great patience and doesn't want anyone to perish, but I believe it is possible.
                                "But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved."—Matthew 24:13
                                To say it isn't defensible is quite a stretch , just like for someone who is a proponent of OSAS to claim that someone who thinks you can lose it is indefensible.

                                The bottom line to all of this is that both actually agree on the major point of both doctrines, and that is we both believe that someone who lives like the world isn't born again.

                                Comment

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