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  • #31
    Re: Hebrews 6:4-6

    Originally posted by Pbminimum View Post
    The bottom line to all of this is that both actually agree on the major point of both doctrines, and that is we both believe that someone who lives like the world isn't born again.
    I understand what you're saying but I don't agree with it. If living like the world is indicative that a person was never born again in the first place, why did Christ say "those who endure until the end will be saved?" He said it because it's not enough to make a covenant; the covenant must be honored.

    For example, the Israelites all made a covenant with God at Mt. Sinai after they were liberated from bondage. However, they later rebelled and consequently 99.9% of them never entered the promised land.
    "For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them."—2 Peter 20-21.

    This isn't talking about someone who has simply acquired an intellectual knowledge of Christ and rejected it, but someone who has "escaped the defilements of the world." This isn't possible by mere head knowledge or simply knowing about Christ; it requires faith and the Holy Spirit. In other words, someone who is born again.
    Love is patient, love is kind; it does not envy, it does not boast; it is not arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth. Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never ends.

    Comment


    • #32
      Re: Hebrews 6:4-6

      Originally posted by Pbminimum View Post
      The bottom line to all of this is that both actually agree on the major point of both doctrines, and that is we both believe that someone who lives like the world isn't born again.
      My problem with this view which seems the cornerstone of the once saved forever saved proponent is their denial that those who turn their back from God were never saved in the first place. This position is wrong as wrong can be. Scriptures abound where both Jesus and some of the Apostles, writing to saved believers adjured them to remain steadfast in Christ till the end.

      I am still waiting for someone - anyone to refute that this warning doesn't categorically confirm the potential of a saved believer throwing his salvation away by backsliding and dying in that state! I reiterate that the exhortation to overcome, persevere, abide in Him to the end suggests that the one who fails, loses his salvation.

      Some might say these passages are no longer valid because of the grace in Christ, but I beg to disagree. I believe they remain valid today as the day Ezekiel said it.

      Ezek 33:12 Therefore, thou son of man, say unto the children of thy people, The righteousness of the righteous shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression: as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall thereby in the day that he turneth from his wickedness; neither shall the righteous be able to live for his righteousness in the day that he sinneth.

      13 When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it.

      14 Again, when I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; if he turn from his sin, and do that which is lawful and right;

      15 If the wicked restore the pledge, give again that he had robbed, walk in the statutes of life, without committing iniquity; he shall surely live, he shall not die.

      16 None of his sins that he hath committed shall be mentioned unto him: he hath done that which is lawful and right; he shall surely live.

      17 Yet the children of thy people say, The way of the Lord is not equal: but as for them, their way is not equal.

      18 When the righteous turneth from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, he shall even die thereby.

      19 But if the wicked turn from his wickedness, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall live thereby.

      Comment


      • #33
        Re: Hebrews 6:4-6

        I personally believe that no one can come to the Father unless He draws them (John 6:44). If you still feel drawn to the Lord, you're safe! Refuse to fear and don't listen to the lies of the enemy. God loves you. Heaven is your home. Those who turn from God are no longer drawn to Him. That's the difference. Bless you!

        Comment


        • #34
          Re: Hebrews 6:4-6

          Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
          My problem with this view which seems the cornerstone of the once saved forever saved proponent is their denial that those who turn their back from God were never saved in the first place. This position is wrong as wrong can be. Scriptures abound where both Jesus and some of the Apostles, writing to saved believers adjured them to remain steadfast in Christ till the end.

          I am still waiting for someone - anyone to refute that this warning doesn't categorically confirm the potential of a saved believer throwing his salvation away by backsliding and dying in that state! I reiterate that the exhortation to overcome, persevere, abide in Him to the end suggests that the one who fails, loses his salvation.

          Some might say these passages are no longer valid because of the grace in Christ, but I beg to disagree. I believe they remain valid today as the day Ezekiel said it.

          Ezek 33:12 Therefore, thou son of man, say unto the children of thy people, The righteousness of the righteous shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression: as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall thereby in the day that he turneth from his wickedness; neither shall the righteous be able to live for his righteousness in the day that he sinneth.

          13 When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it.

          14 Again, when I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; if he turn from his sin, and do that which is lawful and right;

          15 If the wicked restore the pledge, give again that he had robbed, walk in the statutes of life, without committing iniquity; he shall surely live, he shall not die.

          16 None of his sins that he hath committed shall be mentioned unto him: he hath done that which is lawful and right; he shall surely live.

          17 Yet the children of thy people say, The way of the Lord is not equal: but as for them, their way is not equal.

          18 When the righteous turneth from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, he shall even die thereby.

          19 But if the wicked turn from his wickedness, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall live thereby.
          I keep seeing "his righteousness or his wickedness"....where is the righteousness of Christ? And what about the cross? Are we saved by grace or by works? Whose righteousness are we to rely upon? I certainly hope not my own...I fail often. But I turn to the ONE who fulfilled the law that your post speaks of.

          Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
          My problem with this view which seems the cornerstone of the once saved forever saved proponent is their denial that those who turn their back from God were never saved in the first place. This position is wrong as wrong can be. Scriptures abound where both Jesus and some of the Apostles, writing to saved believers adjured them to remain steadfast in Christ till the end.

          I am still waiting for someone - anyone to refute that this warning doesn't categorically confirm the potential of a saved believer throwing his salvation away by backsliding and dying in that state! I reiterate that the exhortation to overcome, persevere, abide in Him to the end suggests that the one who fails, loses his salvation.

          Some might say these passages are no longer valid because of the grace in Christ, but I beg to disagree. I believe they remain valid today as the day Ezekiel said it.

          Ezek 33:12 Therefore, thou son of man, say unto the children of thy people, The righteousness of the righteous shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression: as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall thereby in the day that he turneth from his wickedness; neither shall the righteous be able to live for his righteousness in the day that he sinneth.

          13 When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it.

          14 Again, when I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; if he turn from his sin, and do that which is lawful and right;

          15 If the wicked restore the pledge, give again that he had robbed, walk in the statutes of life, without committing iniquity; he shall surely live, he shall not die.

          16 None of his sins that he hath committed shall be mentioned unto him: he hath done that which is lawful and right; he shall surely live.

          17 Yet the children of thy people say, The way of the Lord is not equal: but as for them, their way is not equal.

          18 When the righteous turneth from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, he shall even die thereby.

          19 But if the wicked turn from his wickedness, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall live thereby.
          I keep seeing "his righteousness or his wickedness"....where is the righteousness of Christ? And what about the cross? Are we saved by grace or by works? Whose righteousness are we to rely upon? I certainly hope not my own...I fail often. But I turn to the ONE who fulfilled the law that your post speaks of.
          Don't seek too much knowledge. You just may be putting more weight on your shoulders than you're able to bare. Let God be the one to decide how quickly you grow.

          Comment


          • #35
            Re: Hebrews 6:4-6

            Originally posted by Saved7 View Post
            I keep seeing "his righteousness or his wickedness"....where is the righteousness of Christ? And what about the cross? Are we saved by grace or by works? Whose righteousness are we to rely upon? I certainly hope not my own...I fail often. But I turn to the ONE who fulfilled the law that your post speaks of.
            We are saved by grace through our faith in him. Nevertheless, our faith should be a temporal exercise where we turn our back to God after we are saved, when that occurs, the believer will lose his salvation! Looks like you believe in the once saved, forever saved doctrine? It is unscriptural in my view.

            Originally posted by Saved7 View Post
            I keep seeing "his righteousness or his wickedness"....where is the righteousness of Christ? And what about the cross? Are we saved by grace or by works? Whose righteousness are we to rely upon? I certainly hope not my own...I fail often. But I turn to the ONE who fulfilled the law that your post speaks of.
            We are saved by grace through our faith in him. Nevertheless, our faith should be a temporal exercise where we turn our back to God after we are saved, when that occurs, the believer will lose his salvation! Looks like you believe in the once saved, forever saved doctrine? It is unscriptural in my view.

            Comment


            • #36
              Re: Hebrews 6:4-6

              Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
              We are saved by grace through our faith in him. Nevertheless, our faith should be a temporal exercise where we turn our back to God after we are saved, when that occurs, the believer will lose his salvation! Looks like you believe in the once saved, forever saved doctrine? It is unscriptural in my view.
              This is where you got it wrong. We are saved by Christ, not your faith. Also it would make Christ a liar.

              Joh 6:39 And it is the will of him who sent me that I should not lose any of all those he has given me, but that I should raise them all to life on the last day.
              Joh 6:47 I am telling you the truth: he who believes has eternal life.

              Then we also has the promise of the Helper given to us.

              Rom 8:25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait for it with patience.
              Rom 8:26 In the same way the Spirit also comes to help us, weak as we are. ...

              Comment


              • #37
                Re: Hebrews 6:4-6

                Originally posted by Kalahari View Post
                This is where you got it wrong. We are saved by Christ, not your faith. Also it would make Christ a liar.

                Joh 6:39 And it is the will of him who sent me that I should not lose any of all those he has given me, but that I should raise them all to life on the last day.
                Joh 6:47 I am telling you the truth: he who believes has eternal life.

                Then we also has the promise of the Helper given to us.

                Rom 8:25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait for it with patience.
                Rom 8:26 In the same way the Spirit also comes to help us, weak as we are. ...
                In your eagerness to score a point, you misunderstood what I wrote in plain English. This is what I said: "We are saved by grace through our faith in him".
                Tell me brother, who gives 'grace'? If you believe it is Jesus, then you have your answer, which is, I never said we saved by anything or anyone else, but JESUS.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Re: Hebrews 6:4-6

                  Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
                  We are saved by grace through our faith in him. Nevertheless, our faith should be a temporal exercise where we turn our back to God after we are saved, when that occurs, the believer will lose his salvation! Looks like you believe in the once saved, forever saved doctrine? It is unscriptural in my view.
                  I am hoping, or at least suppose that the 'underlined bold' that I put into your quote is a misspelling ?
                  should = shouldn't ?
                  Don't seek too much knowledge. You just may be putting more weight on your shoulders than you're able to bare.
                  Let God be the one to decide how quickly you grow

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Re: Hebrews 6:4-6

                    Originally posted by Jacob's Ladder View Post
                    I am hoping, or at least suppose that the 'underlined bold' that I put into your quote is a misspelling ?
                    should = shouldn't ?
                    It is indeed a misspelling. Thank you very much, brother. It is a struggle to edit but I trust that the objective reader will recognise that only shouldn't fit the context.

                    Once again, I am very obliged. Remain blessed.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Re: Hebrews 6:4-6

                      Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
                      In your eagerness to score a point, you misunderstood what I wrote in plain English. This is what I said: "We are saved by grace through our faith in him".
                      Tell me brother, who gives 'grace'? If you believe it is Jesus, then you have your answer, which is, I never said we saved by anything or anyone else, but JESUS.
                      I stand by my point, you make your faith the defining point of your salvation and not Christ.

                      Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
                      In your eagerness to score a point, you misunderstood what I wrote in plain English. This is what I said: "We are saved by grace through our faith in him".
                      Tell me brother, who gives 'grace'? If you believe it is Jesus, then you have your answer, which is, I never said we saved by anything or anyone else, but JESUS.
                      I stand by my point, you make your faith the defining point of your salvation and not Christ.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Re: Hebrews 6:4-6

                        Originally posted by Kalahari View Post
                        I stand by my point, you make your faith the defining point of your salvation and not Christ.
                        If you say so.

                        Originally posted by Kalahari View Post
                        I stand by my point, you make your faith the defining point of your salvation and not Christ.
                        If you say so.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Re: Hebrews 6:4-6

                          Originally posted by Kalahari View Post
                          you make your faith the defining point of your salvation and not Christ.
                          Hi Kalahari, you can include me in that group too.

                          I do not see where your contention with this lays ?
                          Even so that Christ Jesus is th​e author and finisher of my faith, and the constant attention of my focus down here on Earth.
                          For me, everywhere in our NT and OT, indeed faith was the defining point in a restored relationship with God.

                          OT
                          From Noah to Moses to Abraham to Issac and then from Jacob to David to Solomon.
                          Even Job too if you read close enough, he was defined by being humiliated into seeing his confidence coming from God rather than from what his eyes see and or ears hear.
                          Faith was their defining point in a restored relationship with God.

                          NT
                          From the Centurion to the Samaritan at the well, from Peter to Paul, from the ones waiting at Pentecost to the ones persecuted in a Colosseum.
                          All of them, their individual faith was the defining point of their restored relationship with God, from their walk's beginning to their end on Earth.
                          Faith was their defining point in a restored relationship with God.

                          I can raise dozens upon dozens more examples in our bible's OT and NT both of faith being men and women's defining point of a restored relationship with God.


                          [edited] the to their
                          Don't seek too much knowledge. You just may be putting more weight on your shoulders than you're able to bare.
                          Let God be the one to decide how quickly you grow

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Re: Hebrews 6:4-6

                            Originally posted by Jacob's Ladder View Post
                            Hi Kalahari, you can include me in that group too.

                            Even so that Christ Jesus is the author and finisher of my faith, and the constant attention of my focus down here on fallen Earth.
                            ...For me, everywhere in our NT and OT, indeed faith was the defining point in a restored relationship with God.

                            OT
                            From Noah to Moses to Abraham to Issac and then from Jacob to David to Solomon.
                            Even Job too if you read close enough, he was defined by being humiliated into seeing his confidence coming from God rather than from what his eyes see and or ears hear.

                            NT
                            From the Centurion to the Samaritan at the well, from Peter to Paul, from the ones waiting at Pentecost to the ones persecuted in a Colosseum.

                            All of them, their individual faith was the defining point of their restored relationship with God, from their walk's beginning to their end on Earth.
                            ....I can raise dozens upon dozens more examples of faith being THE defining point, found in NT and OT both.
                            Let me perhaps try to make it clearer.

                            Heb 11:1 To have faith is to be sure of the things we hope for, to be certain of the things we cannot see.

                            On who is your hope, on who are you certain? Is it your faith or Christ?

                            If it is your faith then it would be possible to loose or depart from it. There are numerous examples of it. Man cannot be trusted and anything that is depending on it would at one or another time be disappointed.

                            But the faith we got are not ours, but a gift from God. Our assurance of our salvation are not our faith, but Christ which is our Saviour. I will post art 22 of the Belgic Confession to explain.

                            "We believe that for us to acquire the true knowledge of this great mystery the Holy Spirit kindles in our hearts a true faith that embraces Jesus Christ, with all his merits, and makes him its own, and no longer looks for anything apart from him.

                            For it must necessarily follow that either all that is required for our salvation is not in Christ or, if all is in him, then those who have Christ by faith have his salvation entirely.

                            Therefore, to say that Christ is not enough but that something else is needed as well is a most enormous blasphemy against God— for it then would follow that Jesus Christ is only half a Savior.

                            And therefore we justly say with Paul that we are justified “by faith alone” or “by faith apart from works.” However, we do not mean, properly speaking, that it is faith itself that justifies us— for faith is only the instrument by which we embrace Christ, our righteousness. But Jesus Christ is our righteousness in making available to us all his merits and all the holy works he has done for us and in our place.

                            And faith is the instrument that keeps us in communion with him and with all his benefits. When those benefits are made ours, they are more than enough to absolve us of our sins."

                            This why I ask if you are saved by faith or Christ? (I hope it is a bit clearer)

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Re: Hebrews 6:4-6

                              deleted, moved with quote included
                              Don't seek too much knowledge. You just may be putting more weight on your shoulders than you're able to bare.
                              Let God be the one to decide how quickly you grow

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Re: Hebrews 6:4-6

                                Originally posted by Kalahari View Post
                                Let me perhaps try to make it clearer.


                                Heb 11:1 To have faith is to be sure of the things we hope for, to be certain of the things we cannot see.


                                On who is your hope, on who are you certain? Is it your faith or Christ?


                                If it is your faith then it would be possible to loose or depart from it. There are numerous examples of it. Man cannot be trusted and anything that is depending on it would at one or another time be disappointed.


                                But the faith we got are not ours, but a gift from God. Our assurance of our salvation are not our faith, but Christ which is our Saviour. I will post art 22 of the Belgic Confession to explain.


                                "We believe that for us to acquire the true knowledge of this great mystery the Holy Spirit kindles in our hearts a true faith that embraces Jesus Christ, with all his merits, and makes him its own, and no longer looks for anything apart from him.


                                For it must necessarily follow that either all that is required for our salvation is not in Christ or, if all is in him, then those who have Christ by faith have his salvation entirely.


                                Therefore, to say that Christ is not enough but that something else is needed as well is a most enormous blasphemy against God— for it then would follow that Jesus Christ is only half a Savior.


                                And therefore we justly say with Paul that we are justified “by faith alone” or “by faith apart from works.” However, we do not mean, properly speaking, that it is faith itself that justifies us— for faith is only the instrument by which we embrace Christ, our righteousness. But Jesus Christ is our righteousness in making available to us all his merits and all the holy works he has done for us and in our place.


                                And faith is the instrument that keeps us in communion with him and with all his benefits. When those benefits are made ours, they are more than enough to absolve us of our sins."


                                This why I ask if you are saved by faith or Christ? (I hope it is a bit clearer)
                                Thank you.
                                Your answer, answers my concern.
                                Yes, I am saved by Christ's work completed, if I love Him and am called according to His purpose.

                                I think that I understand your clarification, and I can 100% agree if I am reading you correctly.
                                ....But maybe not ?
                                Would I be wrong to think that your contention is in defense of, or an attack upon calvinism vs arminianism or arminianism vs calvinism ?

                                Because, I see both side of that argument profitless and in-fact divides the Lord's church, and will lose some folks one or more crowns in eternity.
                                Maybe I am, was or still am in one or the other of those camps in the eyes of still babes/carnal ones in Christ (and that is fine with me), but my Master only places one title on His brethren, and that title is "brethren" not an arminianism-brethren or calvinism-brethren, but His brethren.
                                ....What I mean is, men tried to alienate one brother from another when Paul was establishing churches in Asian and in the Mediterranean too, exampled in: 1 Corinthians 3:4-8
                                But, Paul put a quick and decisive stop to it in that same chapter in verse 9, as we should also do the same now; put a quick and decisive stop to it.

                                1 Corinthians 3:4-6
                                For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal ?
                                Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man ?
                                I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
                                So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.
                                Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.


                                Verse 9,
                                For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.


                                PS:
                                I use to be NOSAS, but recently over a long slow process see now that my position of confusion there was anhored in me seeing loss of an eternal reward as being unsaved, but now I know better.
                                But now see that there is indeed eternal security in our redemption through our faith in Christ's work completed on our behalf, if we love Him and are called according to His purpose.
                                Where as before I read loss of rewards, or crowns as falling away from salvation by our works or lack there of (losing salvation).
                                Now I see clearer: Some of us may have 100 fold in rewards with what we do with what Jesus gave us, some only 30 fold in rewards, and some with 10 fold, maybe some even with only 3 fold (the same goes with the amount of crowns given in heaven), but all are still saved from their sin and still restored to a relationship with God eternally.



                                God bless.

                                [edit] decisive to divides and
                                OSAS to NOSAS and an additional clarified answer to the quote.
                                Don't seek too much knowledge. You just may be putting more weight on your shoulders than you're able to bare.
                                Let God be the one to decide how quickly you grow

                                Comment

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