Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

The Eternal Security of the true Believer!

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • The Eternal Security of the true Believer!

    Romans 8:29-30 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

    My purpose in starting this new thread happens to be for a couple of reasons:
    1.Since new here I'm not aware if there has been one similar to this.
    2.Because of the need for rightly dividing the word of truth.
    3.Because God cannot lie - as a matter of fact it is impossible for God to lie.

    The Confusion about all this stems from two theological positions and even though some may not be versed in all their content one teaches you can be saved and later 'if' then you can lose it. The other side believes that true bible salvation is eternal because given by an eternal God it can never end.
    As you may or may not know, for years people have debated whether a believer can lose his or her salvation. Perhaps more than any other single doctrine, eternal security has been a dividing issue in the church age. That's sad because the Bible is so clear on the matter.
    It's surprising to me that so many would deny the straightforward presentation of the doctrine of security in Romans 8. And yes there are other texts which discuss the security of the believer, but none are as pointed as this. Verses 28-30 are among the clearest passages on eternal security: everyone who has been redeemed by Jesus Christ--without exception--will be glorified. That is according to these two verses. All believers have the assurance that everything works together for their good, so nothing can work against them that could make them lose their salvation. Those who are justified will indeed be glorified.

    Now, we start with this: Do you understand what the bible means when it says "WHOM He foreknew, THEM He also GLORIFIED"?

    Thanks and I look forward to a good spirited discussion in this all important matter.

    Sam,

  • #2
    I think the key here is what is at the end of the topic heading.

    The true believer has eternal security.

    However, not all who believe they are saved are saved and therefore are not true believers.

    The true believer will persevere to the end and overcome, which is where works comes in. Works is a direct result of faith.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Samsheep2 View Post
      Romans 8:29-30 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
      My purpose in starting this new thread happens to be for a couple of reasons:
      1.Since new here I'm not aware if there has been one similar to this.
      2.Because of the need for rightly dividing the word of truth.
      3.Because God cannot lie - as a matter of fact it is impossible for God to lie.
      The Confusion about all this stems from two theological positions and even though some may not be versed in all their content one teaches you can be saved and later 'if' then you can lose it. The other side believes that true bible salvation is eternal because given by an eternal God it can never end.
      As you may or may not know, for years people have debated whether a believer can lose his or her salvation. Perhaps more than any other single doctrine, eternal security has been a dividing issue in the church age. That's sad because the Bible is so clear on the matter.
      It's surprising to me that so many would deny the straightforward presentation of the doctrine of security in Romans 8. And yes there are other texts which discuss the security of the believer, but none are as pointed as this. Verses 28-30 are among the clearest passages on eternal security: everyone who has been redeemed by Jesus Christ--without exception--will be glorified. That is according to these two verses. All believers have the assurance that everything works together for their good, so nothing can work against them that could make them lose their salvation. Those who are justified will indeed be glorified.
      Now, we start with this: Do you understand what the bible means when it says "WHOM He foreknew, THEM He also GLORIFIED"?
      Thanks and I look forward to a good spirited discussion in this all important matter.
      Sam,
      Sam,
      We've been down this road so many times. Your doctrines are false. Romans 8:29-30 are not talking about salvation. Notice all of the verbs are past tense. This is a completed act of God, including the glorification.
      Who were they that God foreknew? There is no reference anywhere in the passage to a time before the foundation of the world. Those God foreknew are in relation to what Paul is speaking about. Paul is encouraging the saints at Rome because they are being persecuted. He tells the not to worry because God works all things together for good to them who love Him. How does Paul prove this to the saints at Rome? He makes his next statement which is verses 29-30,

      Romans 8:29-30 ( KJV ) 29For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

      So, who did God foreknow? the Greek word means, to know before. So, it reads those who God knew before. Before what? Before the time when Paul is writing this letter to the those at Rome. Paul is saying, hey don't worry those that God knew before, back in the day. Who were they? they were people like Abraham, Issac, David, Joseph, etc. Paul is saying that God had determined that they would be conformed to the image of His Son. He had determined that they would be called, justified, and glorified. All already done, that is why the verbs are all past tense. God has done all of these things for those of old. So he can say to those at Rome don't worry about the persecution, God will take care of you, see what He has done for those He knew before, those of old, David, Abraham, Jacob, etc.
      Now, that being said, let's move on to the eternal security issue. Let's start off by acknowledging that the issue is not with God. It is not whether or not God can keep us, we all agree that God can Keep us. The issue is whether or not a believer can turn away from God. Now, rather than posting verses that show that a believer will be kept, which is not in doubt, please address the the Scriptures that I post and show me how I have misinterpreted them.

      Hebrews 3:1 ( KJV ) 1Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;
      The writer of Hebrews makes it clear He is speaking of believers, He goes on to say,

      Hebrews 3:7-12 ( KJV ) 7Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice, 8Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness: 9When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years. 10Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. 11So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.) 12Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

      Consider this,

      Hebrews 10:25-29 ( KJV ) 25Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching. 26For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 28He that despised Moses’ law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: 29Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

      The writer clearly says this person was sanctified, yet counted the blood an unholy thing and suffered worse punishment than those under the law.
      Consider,

      Hebrews 10:38-39 ( KJV ) 38Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. 39But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.
      The writer here clearly says a man can draw back.
      Consider also,

      Mark 9:42-48 ( KJV ) 42And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea. 43And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: 44Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 45And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: 46Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 47And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: 48Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

      OK, Jesus said this to His disciples, to John, Peter, Matthew, etc. these are the elect. Jesus warns them to make sure they do not end up in hell. Why would Jesus tell them this if the elect cannot wind up in hell?

      Again, please deal with these Scriptures, please don't post a bunch of Scriptures showing that believers will be kept, no one doubts that those who continue in belief will be saved. The issue is whether or not they can turn away.

      Comment


      • #4
        “I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful. 3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4 Remain in me, and I will remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me” (John 15:1-4). [1]

        Jesus words not Pauls.


        The branches are part of the plant, but they have no roots. They are in the plant, just enough to survive, but they don't draw enough of the life sustaining spirit to actually produce fruit. If they are not pruned off, they will just continue to leech off enough nourishment to make the rest of the branches suffer.

        Comment


        • #5
          Joh 6:47Verily,verily,I sayunto you,He that believethonmehatheverlastinglife.

          "Believeth" not "once Believed"

          Comment


          • #6
            Believeth" not "once Believed"
            True, and as John shows...

            They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

            Those who once believed may not persevere to the end. However, if they do not, they were never one of us, even when they believed.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Yukerboy View Post
              True, and as John shows...

              They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

              Those who once believed may not persevere to the end. However, if they do not, they were never one of us, even when they believed.
              1 John is speaking of false teachers not Christians.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by 4HeavensSake View Post
                Joh 6:47Verily,verily,I sayunto you,He that believethonmehatheverlastinglife.

                "Believeth" not "once Believed"
                I notice you did not answer the questions.

                Would you mind putting that verse in context?

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Yukerboy View Post
                  I think the key here is what is at the end of the topic heading.

                  The true believer has eternal security.

                  However, not all who believe they are saved are saved and therefore are not true believers.

                  The true believer will persevere to the end and overcome, which is where works comes in. Works is a direct result of faith.
                  Agreed and thanks,

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Salvation is a gift.
                    Romans 11
                    29 - for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable
                    .
                    V
                    I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.
                    - Mahatma Gandhi



                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Butch5 View Post
                      Sam, We've been down this road so many times. Your doctrines are false.
                      Why Butch, how nice of you to declare first that my doctrines are wrong? I am glad I am not now on the same road you are.
                      Romans 8:29-30 are not talking about salvation. Notice all of the verbs are past tense. This is a completed act of God, including the glorification.
                      Butch, if salvation is not included within those two v's then my friend I really wonder about you???
                      Who were they that God foreknew? There is no reference anywhere in the passage to a time before the foundation of the world. Those God foreknew are in relation to what Paul is speaking about. Paul is encouraging the saints at Rome because they are being persecuted. He tells the not to worry because God works all things together for good to them who love Him. How does Paul prove this to the saints at Rome? He makes his next statement which is verses 29-30,
                      Butch, the Apostle Paul just happens to be talking about the 'chosen ones' - the 'elect' of God, the 'saved' ones - chapter 8 is a continuation of what was discussed in the previous chapter. The main thrust was to show how the gospel effected what the law was incapable of ever being able to do. From the first verse Salvation is seen in the fact that the gospel of Jesus Christ delivers saved ones from condemnation (V1-13).
                      It produces a spirit of adoption along with the confidence we have as a child of God to address Him as our Father which art in heaven (V14-17).
                      It sustains the new man amidst all the trials of life by the promise of a final salvation Body, Soul and spirit (V18-25).
                      It assures us of Him who will aid us in all our trials (V26-27).
                      It gives us the assurance that all things shall work together for good, since all things are connected with the purpose of God; and all that can happen to a true believer comes in as a part of the plan and purpose of him who has chosen to save us (V28-30).
                      It ministers consolation from the fact that everything that can ever affect mankind is on the side of the true believer, and will work in his favour.
                      ...to be continued)

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Butch5 View Post
                        Romans 8:29-30 ( KJV ) 29For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

                        So, who did God foreknow? the Greek word means, to know before. So, it reads those who God knew before. Before what? Before the time when Paul is writing this letter to the those at Rome. Paul is saying, hey don't worry those that God knew before, back in the day. Who were they? they were people like Abraham, Issac, David, Joseph, etc. Paul is saying that God had determined that they would be conformed to the image of His Son. He had determined that they would be called, justified, and glorified. All already done, that is why the verbs are all past tense. God has done all of these things for those of old. So he can say to those at Rome don't worry about the persecution, God will take care of you, see what He has done for those He knew before, those of old, David, Abraham, Jacob, etc.
                        Butch, since I doubt very seriously you see your own contradictions I doubt there would be a need for me to point them out. But I will say this - Paul wrote to seven churches and he makes a statement in one of those letters that tells me you don't understand how to rightly divide the word of truth:

                        1 Corinthians 4:17 For this cause have I sent unto you Timotheus, who is my beloved son, and faithful in the Lord, who shall bring you into remembrance of my ways which be in Christ, as I teach every where in every church.

                        Butch, past tense with God means much more than you appear to understand - therefore we ask that you explain away this by our brother John Gill:

                        For whom he did foreknow,… The foreknowledge of God here, does not intend his prescience of all things future; by which he foreknows and foretells things to come, and which distinguishes him from all other gods; and is so called, not with respect to himself, with whom all things are present, but with respect to us, and which is eternal, universal, certain, and infallible; for in this sense he foreknows all men, and if this was the meaning here, then all men would be predestinated, conformed to the image of Christ, called by grace, justified and glorified; whereas they are a special people, whom God has foreknown: nor is this foreknowledge to be understood of any provision or foresight of the good works, holiness, faith, and perseverance of men therein, upon which God predestinates them to happiness; since this would make something out of God, and not his good pleasure, the cause of predestination; which was done before, and without any consideration of good or evil, and is entirely owing to the free grace of God, and is the ground and foundation of good works, faith, holiness, and perseverance in them: but this regards the everlasting love of God to his own people, his delight in them, and approbation of them; in this sense he knew them, he foreknew them from everlasting, affectionately loved them, and took infinite delight and pleasure in them; and this is the foundation of their predestination and election, of their conformity to Christ, of their calling, justification, and glorification: for these

                        ...he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son; having perfect, distinct, special knowledge of them, joined with love to them, he predetermined, or fore-appointed them in his eternal mind, in his everlasting and unchangeable purposes and decrees to this end, conformity to the image of Christ; which is not to be understood of the Spirit of Christ: God's elect indeed are chosen to be holy, and through sanctification of the Spirit, but are never said to be conformed, made like to the Spirit, nor is the Spirit ever called the image of Christ; but this designs either likeness to Christ as the Son of God, or conformity to him in his human nature. There is indeed a great disparity between the sonship of Christ, and of the saints; he is the eternal and natural Son of God, he is the one and only begotten Son, they are adopted ones, yet in some things there is a likeness; as he is the Son of God, so are they the sons of God, though not in the same sense; as he is a beloved Son, so are they; as he is the firstborn with respect them, they are the firstborn with respect to angels; as he has an inheritance, so have they; moreover, he has a very great concern in their sonship; the predestination of them to it is by him; the blessing itself is founded on union to him, on their conjugal relation to him, and his assumption of their nature; it comes to them through his redemption, and is actually bestowed on them by him; and this conformity to Christ as sons, will mere fully appear hereafter, when they shall be like him, and see him as he is: or this may be understood of the saints' conformity to Christ in his human nature, both here and hereafter: here in holiness; the image of God was in in his first creation, this is defaced by sin; and in regeneration, the image of Christ is stamped, his grace is wrought in them, his Spirit is put into them, to enable them to walk in him, and after him: this will be complete hereafter, and will consist in perfect holiness, being freed from the very being, as well as the power and guilt of sin; in perfect knowledge of everything that will tend to their happiness; and in glory like to Christ, both in soul and body:

                        ...that he might be the firstborn among many brethren; the persons among whom Christ is the firstborn are described by their relation, "brethren"; to one another, being related to the same Father, regenerated by the same grace, taken into the same family, and heirs of the same glory; and to Christ, which relation, as brethren to him, is not merely founded on his incarnation, but in their adoption; and which is evidenced by their regeneration, and doing the will of his Father; an which relation he owns, and is not ashamed of: they are also described by their number, "many"; for though they are but few, when compared with the world; yet they are many, a large number, considered by themselves; and among these, Christ is the "firstborn"; he is the firstborn of God, the begotten of the Father, he is the first begotten, and as such he is the only begotten; he is the firstborn of Mary, she had none before him, and he is the only one that ever was born in the manner he was; he is the first begotten from the dead, his resurrection is called a begetting, and he was the first in time that rose from the dead by his own power, and to an immortal life, and the first in causality and dignity. Christ is the firstborn with respect to all creatures in general; he was begotten of the Father before all creatures were; he is the first cause of them all, the governor, basis, and support of them: and he is the firstborn with respect to the saints; who are of the same nature with him, are made partakers of the divine nature, are sons in the same family, though not in the same class of sonship: moreover, this character may regard not so much birth as privilege which belongs to Christ as Mediator; who, as the firstborn had, has the blessing, the government, the priesthood, and the inheritance; all which is owing to, and is one end of divine predestination.

                        ...more to come)

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Butch5 View Post
                          Now, that being said, let's move on to the eternal security issue. Let's start off by acknowledging that the issue is not with God. It is not whether or not God can keep us, we all agree that God can Keep us. The issue is whether or not a believer can turn away from God. Now, rather than posting verses that show that a believer will be kept, which is not in doubt,
                          Butch, I am enjoying our debate and assure you we will be back and take back up with the above. Before I leave to go to the Doctor let me say this:

                          This is just some thing for you to think on until I return - you are saying one thing above and then denying it? How can you say you believe GOD CAN KEEP US and then say it is all up to man? Butch, if it's all up to man why do we need GOD TO KEEP US?

                          Thanks, Sam

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            1 John is speaking of false teachers not Christians.
                            Obviously.

                            If they were "christians" they would remain with us. If they do not remain with us, they never belonged to us. They never had salvation.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Might I remind folks that there is a thing about folks debating nicely in the rules. Hollering about folks being "false" this and that... a sure fired way to see a thread get closed very quickly. So if you are going to continue that way then I see this thread getting hammered shut in the next day or two if it goes that long.

                              Just a reminder.


                              Visit our new website
                              ! The Blog might interest some.. and Lord help me!!!... for those that twitter... there as well.

                              A.W. Tozer said,
                              "To escape the error of salvation by works we have fallen into the opposite error of salvation without obedience.”

                              GO.... SERVE YOUR KING!

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X