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The spirit and the soul.

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  • #16
    Re: The spirit and the soul.

    Originally posted by Aviyah View Post
    I imagine this could balloon into a megathread, but I'll try to give a concise explanation!:

    • The "soul" is the person. If I'm speaking about you, Trivalee, I'm speaking about YOU the person. You the soul.
    • The "body" is the physical place where "the soul" is represented.
    • The "spirit" is the essence of [/I]life[/I]. What makes your body alive is your spirit. When your body loses its spirit, it dies.

    The LORD God formed the man of dust from the ground [body; physical] and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life [spirit; power of being alive], and the man became a living creature [soul; unique existence and essence of a living thing]. (Genesis 2:7)

    The dust [body] returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit [power of being alive] returns to God who gave it. (Ecclesiastes 12:7)

    In his hand is the life of every living thing [soul; "life" meaning one's experience on Earth], and the breath of all mankind [spirit; capacity of being alive]. (Job 12:10)

    All go to one place; all come from dust, and all return to dust [body]. Who knows whether the spirit of man [power of being alive] goes upward and the spirit of the beast [power of being alive] goes down into the earth? (Ecclesiastes 3:20-21)

    And here are some verses showing that the soul (the essence of a person, or personhood) remains after death of the body:

    And the LORD said, “What have you done? The voice of your brother’s blood is crying to me from the ground. (Genesis 4:10)

    I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne. They cried out with a loud voice, "O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?" (Revelation 6:9-10)

    Do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell. (Matthew 10:28)

    • So, we come into existence (become a soul) when God forms us from matter (body) and gives us life (spirit).
    • When God takes our spirit (power of life), our existence and personhood (the soul) remains, but our physical manifestation on Earth (body) decays.
    Thank you very much for the detailed explanation. From your exegesis, is it too far to assume that it's the soul of the dead [which remains on earth] that roams the earth and sometimes appears to the friends and family of the dead?

    Comment


    • #17
      Re: The spirit and the soul.

      Originally posted by IMINXTC View Post
      Also very likely, IMO: Only the believer has a spirit.

      "And you*hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;" Eph 2:1
      Not true. Please read Aviyah's wonderful post with particular attention to Gen 2:7. The passage teaches that every human life (believing and the unbelieving) has God given the spirit of life. The key is that without the "spirit" there won't be life; it applies to all, whether they believe or not.

      Comment


      • #18
        Re: The spirit and the soul.

        Originally posted by Walls View Post
        Man is tripartite. He is made of three distinct organs. They are;
        1. The Body
        2. The Spirit
        3. The Soul

        The Body is the Tent or Tabernacle (2nd Cor.5:1) - the carrier, the physical part made of thousands of physical parts. It's physical vitality is the blood (Gen.9:4-5). It speaks for the Outer Court of the Temple. In the case of Jesus His Body was also the Veil that kept God hidden from men (Heb.10:20)

        The spirit of man is that organ made by God's breath. It is spirit in nature, and gives the man his vitality (Jas.2:26). It is that organ that God made to be His dwelling place in man (Jn.3:6, 20:22). It speaks for the Holy of Holies in the Temple. Its functions are fellowship (Jn.4:24; Rom.1:9), conscience (compare Rom.9:1 with Romans 8:16) and intuition (1st Cor.2:11).

        The soul of man is the man. After Genesis 3:7 man is always referred to as a "soul". When our Lord died His soul went to Hades. At the same time the scripture says that HE went to Hades. The man is the soul and the soul is the man. This makes him different to an angel which is "spirit" in being. The soul has three organs, mind - the thinking organ (Ps.13:2, 139:14; Lam.3:20), emotions - the feeling organ (1st Sam.18:1; 2nd Sam.5:8; Song.1:7; Isa.61:10; Ps.86:4), and the will - the deciding organ (Job.6:7, 7:15; 1st Chron.22:19). The Soul speaks for the Holy Place of the Temple. In it he receives divine nourishment (the showbread altar), divine light (the Candlestick or Menorah) and he formulates prayers to be carried up by Jesus as the altar of incense.

        These three organs of a man each have their own recovery or salvation.
        1. The spirit must be born again from above and have God and His divine life come into it and stay. This is achieved by FAITH
        2. The soul must be transformed by a combination of God adding divine elements and purging discipline while the man denies himself, adds Godly attributes and eats Christ. This is achieved by God's supply and man's effort
        3. The body must die and be resurrected anew body, or, if alive at Christ's coming, it must be changed. This is achieved solely by the Holy Spirit

        At death the man is torn apart.
        1. His spirit returns to God to await the resurrection. Since the soul is the man, it cannot be said that a man goes to God in heaven at death. Only his spirit does - and he is NOT a spirit.
        2. His body returns to the elements of the dust and mus wait for the Holy Spirit to gather together the elements for his new body
        3. His soul goes to Hades in the heart of the earth from which he RISES when the Holy Spirit causes his resurrection. A dead man is both naked and unclean in death and so cannot appear before God in this state. Rather, Christ's soul, which is omnipresent, will be with him in Hades (Ps.139:8)
        Another wonderful post, devoid of ambiguity. Thanks.

        Comment


        • #19
          Re: The spirit and the soul.

          Originally posted by Noeb View Post
          Yeah, it's a tough one.

          dust+spirit=soul (Gen 2:7)

          That is the foundation, and anything anyone says that deviates from that foundation is false. You've seen plenty already in this thread.

          How many souls were lost? Ever see how many spirits were lost? Nope. Why is that? Spirit isn't lost. Spirit isn't dead. It can't be. Its God's.
          You're right by pointing out something that's easily missed in scripture. I've never heard or read about a 'spirit' being lost. Only the soul does (Ezek 18:20).

          Comment


          • #20
            Re: The spirit and the soul.

            Originally posted by randyk View Post
            I spent my early Christian years reading Watchman Nee, who described something similar to how Walls described it, though not exactly. The spirit is the part of man that communes with God, with a conscience and intuition. We operate in the spiritual gifts here.

            The soul is the part of man that operates strictly as a human spirit, without a necessary connection to the Spirit of God. It has emotions, will, and thought. We can have thoughts and emotions completely separated from God's Spirit, or our thoughts and emotions can be informed by God's thoughts and emotions. It depends on the responsiveness of our spirit to God's Spirit.

            The body is our physical being. It is controlled by our soul, which in turn is either informed by God's Spirit or strictly by our own mind.

            I've never found my own formula for this, except that I've sort of held to Nee's views. Like you, I've never been completely satisfied by it. One thing we know for sure, the body received the life force, or spirit, and became a human soul, or individual personality.
            I'm glad I wasn't ashamed to ask this question. Now, it has been explained by different people, it's so clear that I wonder why I couldn't figure it out before?

            Comment


            • #21
              Re: The spirit and the soul.

              Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
              Does anyone know the difference between the spirit and the soul, please? What role does each play? I've grappled with their meaning for years and don't seem any wiser today than I was 10 years ago.

              Please help..
              The body houses the soul. The soul houses the spirit within the body. The soul is a compartment so to speak for the spirit.

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: The spirit and the soul.

                Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
                Not true. Please read Aviyah's wonderful post with particular attention to Gen 2:7. The passage teaches that every human life (believing and the unbelieving) has God given the spirit of life. The key is that without the "spirit" there won't be life; it applies to all, whether they believe or not.
                And then came the fall of man.

                "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." Gen 2:17

                Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
                Not true. Please read Aviyah's wonderful post with particular attention to Gen 2:7. The passage teaches that every human life (believing and the unbelieving) has God given the spirit of life. The key is that without the "spirit" there won't be life; it applies to all, whether they believe or not.
                And then came the fall of man.

                "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." Gen 2:17

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: The spirit and the soul.

                  Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
                  Does anyone know the difference between the spirit and the soul, please?
                  There is no difference between the words in Hebrew, Greek and English. They are two parts of the same thing.

                  English:

                  soul (sol) noun
                  1. The animating and vital principle in human beings, credited with the faculties of thought, action, and emotion and often conceived as an immaterial entity.
                  2. The spiritual nature of human beings, regarded as immortal, separable from the body at death, and susceptible to happiness or misery in a future state.
                  3. The disembodied spirit of a dead human being; a shade....
                  5. A human being: "the homes of some nine hundred souls" (Garrison Keillor).
                  6. The central or integral part; the vital core: "It saddens me that this network . . . may lose its soul, which is after all the quest for news" (M. Kalb).

                  spir·it (spîr¹ît) noun
                  1. a. The vital principle or animating force within living beings. b. Incorporeal consciousness....
                  2. The soul, considered as departing from the body of a person at death.
                  6. a. The part of a human being associated with the mind, will, and feelings: Though unable to join us today, they are with us in spirit. b. The essential nature of a person or group.
                  7. A person as characterized by a stated quality: He is a proud spirit.(11)

                  Hebrew:

                  SOUL (nephesh):
                  1) soul, self, life, creature, person, appetite, mind, living being, desire, emotion, passion
                  1a) that which breathes, the breathing substance or being, soul, the inner being of man
                  1b) living being
                  1c) living being (with life in the blood)
                  1d) the man himself, self, person or individual
                  1e) seat of the appetites
                  1f) seat of emotions and passions

                  SPIRIT (ruach)
                  1) wind, breath, mind, spirit
                  1a) breath
                  1b) wind
                  1c) spirit (as that which breathes quickly in animation or agitation)
                  1c1) spirit, animation, vivacity, vigour
                  1c2) courage
                  1c3) temper, anger
                  1c4) impatience, patience
                  1c5) spirit, disposition (as troubled, bitter, discontented)
                  1c6) disposition (of various kinds), unaccountable or uncontrollable impulse
                  1d) spirit (of the living, breathing being in man and animals)
                  1d1) as gift, preserved by God, God's spirit, departing at death, disembodied being
                  1e) spirit (as seat of emotion)
                  1e1) desire
                  1e2) sorrow, trouble
                  1f) spirit
                  1f1) as seat or organ of mental acts
                  1f2) rarely of the will
                  1f3) as seat especially of moral character(13)

                  So in Hebrew "soul" refers to "that which breathes" and to the mind, desire, and emotions.
                  And "spirit" refers to "that which breathes" and the part of us which experiences emotions and is responsible for "mental acts."

                  Greek:

                  Thayer's Greek words for soul (psuche) and spirit (pneuma):


                  SOUL (psuche):
                  1) breath
                  1a) the breath of life
                  1a1) the vital force which animates the body and shows itself in breathing
                  1a1a) of animals
                  1a12) of men
                  1b) life
                  1c) that in which there is life
                  1c1) a living being, a living soul
                  2) the soul
                  2a) the seat of the feelings, desires, affections, aversions (our heart, soul etc.)
                  2b) the (human) soul in so far as it is constituted that by the right use of the aids offered it by God it can attain its highest end and secure eternal blessedness, the soul regarded as a moral being designed for everlasting life
                  2c) the soul as an essence which differs from the body and is not dissolved by death....

                  SPIRIT (pneuma)
                  2) the spirit, i.e. the vital principal by which the body is animated
                  2a) the rational spirit, the power by which the human being feels, thinks, decides
                  2b) the soul
                  3) a spirit, i.e. a simple essence, devoid of all or at least all grosser matter, and possessed of the power of knowing, desiring, deciding, and acting
                  3a) a life giving spirit
                  3b) a human soul that has left the body
                  4) the disposition or influence which fills and governs the soul of any one
                  4a) the efficient source of any power, affection, emotion, desire, etc.(14)



                  Thus in Greek "soul" refers to the animating principle which feels, desires, and can attain everlasting life with God.
                  And "spirit" is also the animating principle which feels, thinks, and decides. Notice once again, the use of the word soul to define spirit (twice in fact: 2b,3b).

                  Greek:

                  Strong's Greek words for soul (psuche) and spirit (pneuma):



                  Spirit
                  G4151
                  pneuma
                  pnyoo'-mah
                  From G4154; a current of air, that is, breath (blast) or a breeze; by analogy or figuratively a spirit, that is, (human) the rational soul, (by implication) vital principle, mental disposition, etc., or (superhuman) an angel, daemon, or (divine) God, Christ’s spirit, the Holy spirit: - ghost, life, spirit (-ual, -ually), mind. Compare G5590.

                  Soul
                  G5590
                  psuche
                  psoo-khay'
                  From G5594; breath, that is, (by implication) spirit, abstractly or concretely (the animal sentient principle only; thus distinguished on the one hand from G4151, which is the rational and immortal soul; and on the other from G2222, which is mere vitality, even of plants: these terms thus exactly correspond respectively to the Hebrew [H5315], [H7307] and [H2416]: - heart (+ -ily), life, mind, soul, + us, + you.


                  "Summing up, overall the definitions of the English words and lexical entries for the Hebrew and Greek words indicate that "soul" and "spirit" are interchangeable terms, with common characteristics ascribed to both."


                  Spirit: "by analogy or figuratively a spirit" and "the rational soul"
                  Soul: "(by implication) spirit" and "the rational and immortal soul"

                  Same exact meanings.



                  Unfortunately scripture doesn't provide any reasoning why the two have their own names or why we need two of something that is essentially two of the same thing with no provided differences between them. It's kind of like having a two headed coin, the same on both sides yet one side is not the other side per se'.
                  James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: The spirit and the soul.

                    Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
                    Thank you very much for the detailed explanation. From your exegesis, is it too far to assume that it's the soul of the dead [which remains on earth] that roams the earth and sometimes appears to the friends and family of the dead?
                    That's a good question. I don't believe the souls of the dead are able to roam the Earth, mainly because of the parable/story Jesus gave of a rich man who died:

                    The rich man also died and was buried, and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.’ But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner bad things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish. And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.’

                    And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father, to send him to my father's house - for I have five brothers - so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.’ But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.’ And he said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ He said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead.’” (Luke 16)

                    So it seems that the rich man understood he was in a prison, otherwise why would he ask that Lazarus be the one to warn his family rather than himself? Evidently he thinks Lazarus is free in heaven, and this might leave open the possibility of redeemed souls being able to roam the Earth. That could explain the appearance of Samuel to the medium after his death in 1 Samuel 28, and the souls in Revelation being aware of world events. But my personal opinion is that it's impossible (or at least not permitted) for either side to appear, and that the medium in 1 Samuel was simply lying.

                    But to answer your question directly:

                    IF the dead were able to roam the earth, it would be the soul - the unique and conscious essence of the person. I believe it's left vague in Scripture for a reason, and that too much fascination only leads to danger. Hence God made necromancy or any attempt to communicate with the dead a capital offense. Does that mean it's possible? Maybe. My educated opinion is that any sort of "appearance" of a dead person is either an illusion or demonic, given that Jesus's story indicates God does not permit souls in either Hades or heaven to warn living people. I understand that any heavenly messengers to Earth are exclusively angels.
                    「耶和華聖潔無比,獨一無二,沒有磐石像我們的上帝。
                    撒母耳記上 (1 Samuel) 2:2

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: The spirit and the soul.

                      Time is of the essence, but as time allows, rather than sidewind this thread which deals with the etymologies and contextual usage of "spirit" and "soul" I will start another thread, focusing on the conditions of the redeemed and of the lost, and the term "in the Spirit" centered in Rm 8 among others.
                      Best i can do now is this post - I work odd hours.

                      Time is of the essence, but as time allows, rather than sidewind this thread which deals with the etymologies and contextual usage of "spirit" and "soul" I will start another thread, focusing on the conditions of the redeemed and of the lost, and the term "in the Spirit" centered in Rm 8 among others.
                      Best i can do now is this post - I work odd hours.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: The spirit and the soul.

                        Originally posted by kyCyd View Post
                        Don't all souls represent creatures?
                        Why?


                        Originally posted by kyCyd View Post
                        Knowledge of God's spirit striving with man doesn't appear until Ge 6:3 this to me is what separates us from creatures.
                        "My spirit" as opposed the the spirit of disobedience. This is not talking about the Spirit of God - the Holy Spirit.


                        Originally posted by kyCyd View Post
                        A soul is represented by all living creatures with the breath of life.
                        Breath of life is spirit. All living have it.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: The spirit and the soul.

                          Originally posted by kyCyd View Post
                          All these scriptures to me point to new birth is of the spirit.

                          Ezekiel 11:19 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:
                          John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
                          John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
                          John 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

                          Just what to you gets born again? Please provide scriptures.
                          The individual is born again. All scriptures. As it says "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." There isn't any scripture that suggest only something called a spirit is born again. How is the breath of life from God born again?

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Re: The spirit and the soul.

                            Originally posted by randyk View Post
                            I spent my early Christian years reading Watchman Nee, who described something similar to how Walls described it, though not exactly. The spirit is the part of man that communes with God, with a conscience and intuition. We operate in the spiritual gifts here.

                            The soul is the part of man that operates strictly as a human spirit, without a necessary connection to the Spirit of God. It has emotions, will, and thought. We can have thoughts and emotions completely separated from God's Spirit, or our thoughts and emotions can be informed by God's thoughts and emotions. It depends on the responsiveness of our spirit to God's Spirit.

                            The body is our physical being. It is controlled by our soul, which in turn is either informed by God's Spirit or strictly by our own mind.

                            I've never found my own formula for this, except that I've sort of held to Nee's views. Like you, I've never been completely satisfied by it. One thing we know for sure, the body received the life force, or spirit, and became a human soul, or individual personality.
                            I used to believe similarly but I haven't found it reasonable to think soul and spirit can ever act interdependently of one another.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Re: The spirit and the soul.

                              Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
                              I'm glad I wasn't ashamed to ask this question. Now, it has been explained by different people, it's so clear that I wonder why I couldn't figure it out before?
                              I've never known anyone that had this figured out. Only some that think they do.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Re: The spirit and the soul.

                                Originally posted by ross3421 View Post
                                The body houses the soul. The soul houses the spirit within the body. The soul is a compartment so to speak for the spirit.
                                If the soul exists because of the body how is it it's house?

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