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  • #31
    Re: The spirit and the soul.

    Originally posted by Aviyah View Post
    That's a good question. I don't believe the souls of the dead are able to roam the Earth, mainly because of the parable/story Jesus gave of a rich man who died:

    The rich man also died and was buried, and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.’ But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner bad things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish. And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.’

    And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father, to send him to my father's house - for I have five brothers - so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.’ But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.’ And he said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ He said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead.’” (Luke 16)

    So it seems that the rich man understood he was in a prison, otherwise why would he ask that Lazarus be the one to warn his family rather than himself? Evidently he thinks Lazarus is free in heaven, and this might leave open the possibility of redeemed souls being able to roam the Earth. That could explain the appearance of Samuel to the medium after his death in 1 Samuel 28, and the souls in Revelation being aware of world events. But my personal opinion is that it's impossible (or at least not permitted) for either side to appear, and that the medium in 1 Samuel was simply lying.

    But to answer your question directly:

    IF the dead were able to roam the earth, it would be the soul - the unique and conscious essence of the person. I believe it's left vague in Scripture for a reason, and that too much fascination only leads to danger. Hence God made necromancy or any attempt to communicate with the dead a capital offense. Does that mean it's possible? Maybe. My educated opinion is that any sort of "appearance" of a dead person is either an illusion or demonic, given that Jesus's story indicates God does not permit souls in either Hades or heaven to warn living people. I understand that any heavenly messengers to Earth are exclusively angels.
    The dead are not allowed to roam the earth because they are not conscious. Why do you think we weren't allowed familiar spirits? Think just how vain it is praying to Mary and the dead saints.

    I feel Lazarus and the rich man is a parable despite the proper names. Besides it is just in one place in scripture without a second witness. 2 Cor. 13:1 "This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established." All said, as I stated before all scripture has to fit together, in what we teach, or none of it is valid.
    John 15:17 "These things I command you, that ye love one another."

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    • #32
      Re: The spirit and the soul.

      Originally posted by Deade View Post

      I feel Lazarus and the rich man is a parable despite the proper names. Besides it is just in one place in scripture without a second witness. 2 Cor. 13:1 "This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established." All said, as I stated before all scripture has to fit together, in what we teach, or none of it is valid.
      Why do you post a scripture for 2 or 3 witnesses that refer to people while using it as if witnesses mean more than one scripture? There is no standard of more than one scripture to establish a doctrine. I'm not saying the parable does or does not. Parables are parables.

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      • #33
        Re: The spirit and the soul.

        Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
        I'm glad I wasn't ashamed to ask this question. Now, it has been explained by different people, it's so clear that I wonder why I couldn't figure it out before?
        Give it a few days, and you'll be right back where you started! At least, I will!

        Comment


        • #34
          Re: The spirit and the soul.

          Originally posted by Walls View Post
          .

          The rebirth is not a reversal of a man killed by sin and sins. The rebirth is a fully new work of the Spirit of God that starts in the human spirit,
          It starts with the spirit, this is being born again! New spirit, born of the spirit

          continues in the soul, and ends with a new and heavenly and spiritual body*.
          This is the benefits to the soul of being born again (new spirit)...it affects the soul.

          Comment


          • #35
            Re: The spirit and the soul.

            Originally posted by Noeb View Post

            Breath of life is spirit. All living have it.
            You just answered the why.

            Comment


            • #36
              Re: The spirit and the soul.

              Originally posted by Noeb View Post
              The individual is born again. All scriptures. As it says "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." There isn't any scripture that suggest only something called a spirit is born again. How is the breath of life from God born again?
              God says he will put a new spirit within you...He doesn't say anything about the soul being new. So the question becomes can God put a new spirit into someone that already has a spirit? Yes He can. It is the spirit that is new not the soul. The soul benefits from the new spirit.

              Comment


              • #37
                Re: The spirit and the soul.

                Originally posted by Deade View Post
                The dead are not allowed to roam the earth because they are not conscious. Why do you think we weren't allowed familiar spirits? Think just how vain it is praying to Mary and the dead saints.
                I don't think the consciousness of the soul pertains to these other topics. Whether the soul is conscious or not, the Lazarus parable still shows they are not allowed to communicate with the living. Praying to dead saints (or angels for that matter) is vain and sinful because it's a form of idolatry, and they have no power apart from God. That wouldn't change if they were conscious or unconscious of it.

                But we should try to avoid this tangent to prevent Trivalee's thread from getting sent to Contro. The spirit and soul can be defined without getting into soul-sleep.
                「耶和華聖潔無比,獨一無二,沒有磐石像我們的上帝。
                撒母耳記上 (1 Samuel) 2:2

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                • #38
                  Re: The spirit and the soul.

                  Originally posted by kyCyd View Post
                  You just answered the why.
                  No. Not all creatures are his image.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Re: The spirit and the soul.

                    Originally posted by kyCyd View Post
                    God says he will put a new spirit within you...He doesn't say anything about the soul being new. So the question becomes can God put a new spirit into someone that already has a spirit? Yes He can. It is the spirit that is new not the soul. The soul benefits from the new spirit.
                    So you really think that "I will remove the hearts of stone from their bodies and I will give them tender hearts" means he takes out the breath of life and gives you another spirit?

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                    • #40
                      Re: The spirit and the soul.

                      The present discussion on the rebirth versus receiving a new spirit is profitable. In my second posting #15 I proposed that God's initial and unchanging plan was to work on man from the inside. This is established pictorially by eating, and established doctrinally by various scriptures, notably the whole gospel of John. God wants to make His "ABODE" in man and permeate man's humanity with His divinity. This is the essential Jesus Christ - a Man born of the Holy Spirit AND a woman. And so scripture assures us that it is, "... the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory" (Colossians 1:27). So God allows the most perfect of mankind, Jesus, to go through the whole human experience and add it to His divinity. And when this is done, certain of men receive this "processed Christ" (Jn.7:39, 20:22). Then, our Lord Jesus, as the Spirit, starts a work from the human spirit to transform the soul and resurrect the body.

                      But Israel presents a problem. To the seed of Abraham, with only the condition that they be circumcised, is promised Canaan "for an everlasting possession". But the Israelite, up to and including the generation that was alive at the time of the birth of our Lord Jesus, did NOT have a Saviour to believe in. God's testimony through Israel is not by an INNER WORK starting with Christ inside the human spirit. It is an appeal to the flesh to keep about 630 laws. Theses Laws are divided into those regulating worship of Jehovah, those regulating social and sexual life, those regulating dieta dn clothing, and those regulating how to treat the Land they lived on. The Covenant of Sinai, made some 430 years after the Covenant of Promise made to Abraham, unfortunately worked AGAINST Israel. The Covenant of Law's conditions required Israel to be kicked out Canaan if broken. So how is God going to keep His PROMISE on the one hand - the PROMISE that all seed of Abraham via Isaac would eventually have Canaan for an everlasting possession, and at the same time keep His side of the Covenant made with the 12 Tribes which cases them to kicked out of Canaan. IT IS NOT VIA REBIRTH of the human spirit - for that is by FAITH (Jn.1:12-13).

                      The solution is to give the Israelite a new spirit. To see why this works so well, we must examine the human spirit in scripture. And this is what we find out. God had a very intricate, beautiful and wonderfully made constellation of dust - the body of Adam. To ANIMATE this lump of earth, God breaths into Adam. And Adam "BECOMES a living soul". But this animating breath of God is NOT His divinity. It is that part of God's life that can give ANIMATION to an INANIMATE object. So we learn that the SAME BREATH also animated the cows and crows. Ecclesiastes 3:18-20 informs us;

                      18 "I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts.
                      19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.
                      20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again."


                      The breath that God breathed into the fowl of the air and the lion is the same breath - a breath to animate the inanimate. And James 2:26 tells us that this "breath", or spirit, IS THAT PART THAT IS OUR LIFE. But the man's spirit, although not different to that of a bull or a mouse, is, by decree of God, TO BE PRESERVED at death. Ecclesiastes 3:21 goes on to tell us;

                      "Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?"

                      And Ecclesiastes 12:7 gives more on this. It says; "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it."

                      The HUGE difference between man and beast is RESURRECTION. The animating source of the human - the spirit - goes upward to God to be kept for the resurrection, while that of the beast is not kept. Our Lord Jesus commends His spirit to His Father in heaven, and at resurrection, in Luke 8:55, we learn, "And her spirit came again, and she arose straightway: and he commanded to give her meat." The spirit of a Christian is actually no different EXCEPT IN ONE CRUCIAL ASPECT. IT POSSESSES GOD'S ETERNAL LIFE (Jn.3:15-16; 1st Jn.5:1). But what of the Israelite? ALL Israel are concluded by God in UNBELIEF. Their spirits are not modified. They do not possess God's Life that would enable them to LIVE a Lawful Life? So in resurrection, they receive a NEW SPIRIT. The Hebrew authorities are unanimous when it comes to the meaning of the Hebrew word "NEW". It means BOTH (i) made pristine, and (ii) totally a new creation. In God's promise in Ezekiel 11:19, 18:31 and 36:26 to give all Israel a NEW SPIRIT it means that at least it is made pristine - that is, like Adam's before the fall, and at best it is a TOTALLY NEW SPIRIT. And because the spirit of man is his LIFE, the spirit will propose to the man a certain behavior.

                      The Christian's spirit proposes Christ's LIFE, or a Christ-like LIFE, because it has, and is, permeated with Christ's Spirit. And the Israeli's new spirit will propose a LIFE of OBEDIENCE. And so, with the Israelite bestowed with a new spirit, he will keep the Law AND NEVER BEE THROWN OUT OF CANAAN AGAIN. The Christian is thus equipped to display God - to be in His image and likeness, and the Israelite is thus equipped to keep the Law. This EQUIPMENT is the SPIRIT that he has. The Christian who believed, HAS, in his spirit, the Spirit of Christ, and so he can act like Christ. The Israelite who did NOT BELIEVE, has, by promise, a NEW human spirit made pristine and/or totally new by God. He cannot act like Christ like the Christian, but he can keep the New Covenant of Law as Jeremiah 31:33 says. And so our sovereign and magnificent God solves a huge dilemma by infusing His LIFE into the Christian's spirit, and by giving a pristine spirit to the Jew.

                      The spirit of man is the key to God achieving His plan and showing His glory.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Re: The spirit and the soul.

                        Originally posted by ross3421 View Post
                        The body houses the soul. The soul houses the spirit within the body. The soul is a compartment so to speak for the spirit.
                        The soul and the spirit are often interchangeable in the OT that it can be confusing. At least I struggled to tell them apart until it was explained to me in this OP.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Re: The spirit and the soul.

                          Originally posted by IMINXTC View Post
                          And then came the fall of man. "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." Gen 2:17
                          Not sure this proves your claim.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Re: The spirit and the soul.

                            Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
                            Not sure this proves your claim.
                            I agree with you about that. Having a "dead" spirit doesn't mean it cannot function in some capacity. For instance, in the old days, when a phone was disconnected from the wall, we would say the "phone is dead". It still had the ability to work, but had to be plugged into the right source. A spirit can still function, but what is it's source? Is it connected to God, the life giving Spirit? (i.e. a live spirit) Or is it connected to the dark side? (a dead spirit). A phone connected to the phone line is a live phone. One that is disconnected to the phone line is a dead phone. IMO, it is the same with the spirit of man.

                            I won't attempt to explain the differences in soul, spirit and body that have already been excellently explained, but I would like to add something to think about (briefly).

                            The soul of man can choose which side he is going to walk in. The body has 5 senses. I think the spirit of man does as well. For instance, Paul talks about the "eyes of our heart" being opened. The Psalmist says "taste" and see that the Lord is good. Hebrews talks about having our "senses trained" to discern good and evil. Jesus talked about having "ears" to hear. God calls the prayers of the saints "incense (i.e. He can smell them)". Paul also talks about walking in the "unseen" (2 Corinthians 4:16-5:10 especially 4:18 and 5:7) rather than the seen.

                            My point? What will we follow? Things we can see, touch, taste, hear, and smell in the body, which is the flesh or natural man? Or do we walk in the eternal, the spiritual, and the things we can see, smell, taste, touch, and hear with our spirit. Which side will our soul pay attention to the most? Which side are we going to be governed by? When we are carnel, though saved, we pay more attention to the natural and live and do things for the natural man (our flesh) to be satisfied. But if we are spiritual, then our soul is getting it's information, and direction from the spiritual side.

                            If I could draw a picture, I would put the soul, as picture of a man in the middle, with a window on either side. One window would be labled "spirit" and the other "body". The man could then turn to the spirit window through which to view all things through, or the body/natural window through which to see all things through. For a saved man, we can choose to see things as God does, through our spirit, and be encouraged. Or we can choose to see things as the natural man does and be discouraged and carnel.

                            God bless!
                            Matt 9:13
                            13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
                            NASU

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Re: The spirit and the soul.

                              Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
                              The soul and the spirit are often interchangeable in the OT that it can be confusing. At least I struggled to tell them apart until it was explained to me in this OP.
                              Not so much interchangeable but inseparable. The spirit resides in the soul of a man's body but at death the spirit leaves the body and soul.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Re: The spirit and the soul.

                                Originally posted by Aviyah View Post
                                That's a good question. I don't believe the souls of the dead are able to roam the Earth, mainly because of the parable/story Jesus gave of a rich man who died:

                                The rich man also died and was buried, and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.’ But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner bad things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish. And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.’

                                And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father, to send him to my father's house - for I have five brothers - so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.’ But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.’ And he said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ He said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead.’” (Luke 16)

                                So it seems that the rich man understood he was in a prison, otherwise why would he ask that Lazarus be the one to warn his family rather than himself? Evidently he thinks Lazarus is free in heaven, and this might leave open the possibility of redeemed souls being able to roam the Earth. That could explain the appearance of Samuel to the medium after his death in 1 Samuel 28, and the souls in Revelation being aware of world events. But my personal opinion is that it's impossible (or at least not permitted) for either side to appear, and that the medium in 1 Samuel was simply lying.

                                But to answer your question directly:

                                IF the dead were able to roam the earth, it would be the soul - the unique and conscious essence of the person. I believe it's left vague in Scripture for a reason, and that too much fascination only leads to danger. Hence God made necromancy or any attempt to communicate with the dead a capital offense. Does that mean it's possible? Maybe. My educated opinion is that any sort of "appearance" of a dead person is either an illusion or demonic, given that Jesus's story indicates God does not permit souls in either Hades or heaven to warn living people. I understand that any heavenly messengers to Earth are exclusively angels.
                                Once again, my appreciations. I recognise that my question falls outside the scripture and therefore difficult to be scripturally supported. But it is a true and recurring fact nonetheless.

                                I must clarify that am not in support of communication between the living and the dead in any shape or form, nor was my query in that regard. The Bible expressly forbids it and I stand by that too. I'm just trying to get a better understanding of friends and family who see their loved deceased ones in dreams. Given what I've learned about the soul and spirit from the OP, I was seeking confirmation that it is the"soul" that is at play in such a scenario?

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