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  • #46
    Re: The spirit and the soul.

    Originally posted by Walls View Post
    In God's promise in Ezekiel 11:19, 18:31 and 36:26 to give all Israel a NEW SPIRIT it means that at least it is made pristine - that is, like Adam's before the fall
    This implies a difference between pre and post fall spirit which cannot be supported with scripture.

    Comment


    • #47
      Re: The spirit and the soul.

      Originally posted by Noeb View Post
      This implies a difference between pre and post fall spirit which cannot be supported with scripture.
      I quite like your sharpness. If you would like to discard "made pristine" as a possible meaning to the word "new" in those verses in Ezekiel, I am happy. The second meaning - "made totally new" - is what I lean toward myself. But as a student of the Word I had to show both. But consider this:

      If a word means "made pristine", the implication is that it was, in some way, changed. So the evidence is there if you want it. Added to this we have the case of the incestuous Christian in 1st Corinthians 5:5; "To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus." Clearly implied in this verse is that something MAY befall the spirit of a Christian, and that death is the best way to stop this threat.*

      So, I'm happy with your decision either way.

      * To explain this verse, which is outside the theme of the thread, but might be of interest, I propose the following. As Nebuchadnezzar's armies were set to plunder and destroy Jerusalem, God is faced with a dilemma. On the one hand He has raised up Nebuchadnezzar as "His servant" to chastise Judah. On the other hand, any man except the High Priest of Israel, who tried to enter the Holy of Holies of the Temple, was slain on the spot. God cannot allow His holiness to be mixed with the profane. So either Nebuchadnezzar routs Jerusalem and its Temple, and God is GONE, or Nebuchadnezzar and his army will be annihilated. The opening Chapters of Ezekiel record the desperately sad occasion of God's glory leaving the Temple to make way for the profane heathen advance and rape of Jerusalem. But this CANNOT happen to a Christian. He is the Temple of God and God dwells in His spirit. God has entered this man's spirit because of the Works of Jesus. They CANNOT be undone. Jesus is, "... the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him" (Hebrews 5:9). Added to this, God's LIFE is ETERNAL. The divine life in a Christian's spirit CANNOT be extinguished. So, if a Christian's sins threaten the spirit of the man, God will not withdraw. He will allow Satan to kill that man, causing the sundering of body and spirit. In this way the spirit of a Christian cannot be defiled.

      Comment


      • #48
        Re: The spirit and the soul.

        Originally posted by Walls View Post
        I quite like your sharpness. If you would like to discard "made pristine" as a possible meaning to the word "new" in those verses in Ezekiel, I am happy. The second meaning - "made totally new" - is what I lean toward myself. But as a student of the Word I had to show both. But consider this:

        If a word means "made pristine", the implication is that it was, in some way, changed. So the evidence is there if you want it. Added to this we have the case of the incestuous Christian in 1st Corinthians 5:5; "To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus." Clearly implied in this verse is that something MAY befall the spirit of a Christian, and that death is the best way to stop this threat.*

        So, I'm happy with your decision either way.

        * To explain this verse, which is outside the theme of the thread, but might be of interest, I propose the following. As Nebuchadnezzar's armies were set to plunder and destroy Jerusalem, God is faced with a dilemma. On the one hand He has raised up Nebuchadnezzar as "His servant" to chastise Judah. On the other hand, any man except the High Priest of Israel, who tried to enter the Holy of Holies of the Temple, was slain on the spot. God cannot allow His holiness to be mixed with the profane. So either Nebuchadnezzar routs Jerusalem and its Temple, and God is GONE, or Nebuchadnezzar and his army will be annihilated. The opening Chapters of Ezekiel record the desperately sad occasion of God's glory leaving the Temple to make way for the profane heathen advance and rape of Jerusalem. But this CANNOT happen to a Christian. He is the Temple of God and God dwells in His spirit. God has entered this man's spirit because of the Works of Jesus. They CANNOT be undone. Jesus is, "... the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him" (Hebrews 5:9). Added to this, God's LIFE is ETERNAL. The divine life in a Christian's spirit CANNOT be extinguished. So, if a Christian's sins threaten the spirit of the man, God will not withdraw. He will allow Satan to kill that man, causing the sundering of body and spirit. In this way the spirit of a Christian cannot be defiled.
        Assuming a 'Christian' is any human being who by Christ is forgiven of their sins, and who are given eternal life by Christ for eternity with Him.....

        When do you see Abraham or Noah or Job becoming 'Christians', and attaining the same eternal destiny we modern 'Christians' will have?

        As I see it, there are only two etermal destinies; Christians with Christ partaking of His eternal life, eternally with Him; or
        the unredeemed and unrepentant, with the Devil and His angels, eternally in the place prepared for them.

        Comment


        • #49
          Re: The spirit and the soul.

          Originally posted by Walls View Post
          I quite like your sharpness. If you would like to discard "made pristine" as a possible meaning to the word "new" in those verses in Ezekiel, I am happy. The second meaning - "made totally new" - is what I lean toward myself. But as a student of the Word I had to show both.
          I didn't say anything about this.

          Comment


          • #50
            Re: The spirit and the soul.

            Having dealt somewhat with the spirit of man, a few additional considerations on the SOUL of man might be in order.

            Having established that man is tripartite - body, soul and spirit, it profits much to consider the past present and future of the SOUL. The fall of man introduced a deadly potion to his body, and this deadly potion is passed from father to child since then (Rom.5:12). But not only did it cause the death of the body, but it defiled and corrupted man's SOUL. So we read in Genesis 6:5, "And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually." Without entering into a comprehensive thesis, the "heart" of a man can mean two things. (1) It is that most vital pump that, in the case of Methuselah, pumped about 8,000 liters (2,000 gallons) of blood A DAY for nine hundred and sixty nine years. (2) Overwhelmingly in the bible is the heart a COMBINATION of all three parts of the soul - mind, emotions and will - PLUS one part of the spirit - the conscience. It is the whole SOUL of a man plus that organ that God uses to convict a man if he strays.

            Romans Chapter 7 is written by a Christian of many years. It establishes that even the most zealous of God-loving and God-fearing of men will tend to evil. Though the mind, emotions and will of a Christian are for God, there is a Law in his flesh that causes him to stumble. God does not try to reform the flesh. It is is irretrievably lost, so God cuts man off from the Tree of Life so that his flesh has an end one day. And while the Christian is alive, he is commanded to "take up his cross daily" - the cross being the way to end the mechanisms of the body - as it did Christ's. But while the body is a Vessel and/or "tent" that houses a man, and the spirit is the man's vitality, the SOUL IS THE MAN. When our Lord dies scripture tells us that He went to Hades. So too with David, Lazarus and the rich man. And the Psalms are full of the PLACE of Hades. When Jesus Christ raises the dead He must use the "key" to the gate of Hades, and empty Hades. So while the body ceases to function and molds back to the elements the SOUL lives on and though sundered from the body and spirit, is retained as it is. The rich man of Luke 16 used his mind, emotions and will. So did Abraham. So what is the destiny of the SOUL?

            The answer is simple for the Christian - but the effecting of the solution is dreadfully difficult. Let us consider 1 Peter 1:3-9 which ends in verse 9 with;

            "Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls."

            In this passage, if we are careful to consider everything, a bold plan and execution is revealed:
            In verse 3 we find the rebirth. We are "begotten" by God.

            In verse 4 is the reason for this "birth". NOT heaven, but the Kingdom as is clearly said in John 3:3-5. Our inheritance is the earth when Jesus Christ returns and sets up that everlasting Kingdom as our Lord Jesus, Daniel and many of the prophets predict. This Kingdom has its King presently in heaven, and its rule is by heavenly rules. So it is RESERVED there UNTIL Christ sets it up on earth (Matt.6:10).

            In verse 5 we find the RESURRECTION. The "salvation revealed in the last time" is the salvation of the BODY. At present we "groan" in our "bodies of this death" and are bodily persecuted. But there comes a day when we are saved from this by resurrection.

            In verse 6 we learn of the thing we must be "saved" from - "MANY TRIALS". But are these TRIALS all BAD??? Good or bad, we have a promise. God will KEEP US. He has invested His Son's life for us. Will He so easily give up on us when we fail in our trials? He loves us more than the breast-feeding mother loves her baby. Will He leave us in our hour of tribulation?

            In verse 7 we learn WHY God allows TRIALS. To PURGE US and to REFINE US. The spirit may not be tampered with. The body is a lost cause and will die. But the SOUL can, and is CHANGED. And the major part of the recovery, or change of the SOUL is REFINING. The dross must be removed. The Christian must learn first-hand how dreadfully fallen he/she is. Israel learn their characters through the fiery wilderness (Deut.8:1-8). The Christian must too. Heat and pressure bring out the worst in a man UNTIL he sees what is needed and then they bring out the best.
            In verse 7 we learn how long these refining trials last. For the Church, tribulation and trials LAST TILL CHRIST'S APPEARING - till His SECOND COMING. But what is never to be forgotten about Christ's second coming? THE BEMA - the Judgment Seat of Christ after the rapture. Israel faced the fiery trials BUT FAILED. The Christian can fail too. WE must be exercised by the trials that we "MIGHT" be found unto praise and honor and glory. WHOSE PRAISE? WHO will honor us? WHO will glorify us? Jesus THE KING, Jesus the JUDGE, Jesus the BRIDEGROOM, Jesus Who "has His REWARD with Him!"
            In verse 7 we have another hidden thing. FAITH causes a way of life. If I believe that my trials are to destroy me, I will desert Jesus. If I believe that my trials are unreasonable I will stop loving Jesus. If I believe that the Words of Jesus are wrong I will not read, study or eat them. Israel are tried in Numbers 11:4-6. And what did they say weeping? "Boring manna! Give us real flesh! The Christian is in danger. What is it? It is that in the trials he walks away from His Lord. Have you had a trial dear brother or sister - a trial do crushing that you believe that God has deserted you. If not, you will still have one or more. And then, what will you do? You will walk away from the SOURCE of everything you need. When a sword is made it must pass through fire. The old and useless elements are caused to float and are whisked away. BUT OTHER ELEMENTS MUST BE ADDED. If the steel shouts that the fire is too hot, how then will he ever be made ready for battle. Peter, in his second letter, Chapter 1, verse 1-11 shows that YOU, the Christian, MUST ADD THINGS TO YOURSELF. And what are these things for? For ENTRY into the coming Kingdom (2nd Pet.1:11)!

            Verse 8 gives the solution to staggering faith. LOVE!!! You must not only be born again for the Kingdom. You must not only go through trials for the Kingdom. You must not only be refined and tempered for the kingdom. BUT YOU MUST BE IN LOVE WITH THE KING!!! If you love Jesus you will realize that a road of TRIALS is the same road He walked! You do nothing special when you burn and bleed. You are companions of Jesus. And this will cause you to walk with Him and KNOW Him. And even more important is that if you walk WITH him, HE WILL KNOW YOU. In Matthew 7:21-23 we see powerful Christians who did powerful works in Jesus's Name. But they did not walk with Him. He did NOT KNOW THEM!

            And so we come to verse 9. This whole process of TRIALS, sticking with Jesus, eating Jesus, walking with Him, sucking up what He has to give, even though it be seeming desertion IS FOR ONE THING! It is so that your SOUL is changed and made fit for the Kingdom - your inheritance! The SOUL of a Christian is to undergo a change from obedience to the the screamings of the flesh to the still small voice of God in your spirit. You are a walking battlefield. Galatians 5:17 tells us; "For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would." On one side is the flesh "in which dwells no good thing". On the other side is the human spirit with the very God of the universe dwelling in it. The flesh has screamed at you for your whole life to DECIDE (a function of your will) in favor of it. But it is contrary to God. It is God's mortal enemy. And this enemy, God Himself is right next door to the flesh - in the human spirit of the same man. But God does not scream. He whispers. And caught in the middle of this conflict is your SOUL.

            What kind of Christian will you be found to be at "the appearing of Christ"? Will you have been exercised yb the trials and be found to praise, honor and glory by Jesus, or will you be found to be one whose SOUL still panders to the flesh. The salvation of the soul is when your soul, THINKS FOR, FEELS FOR and DECIDES FOR Jesus. But alas! It can be missed.

            The text under discussion is below for reference.


            3 "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
            4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
            5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
            6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:
            7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
            8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:
            9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls."

            Comment


            • #51
              Re: The spirit and the soul.

              Originally posted by David Taylor View Post
              Assuming a 'Christian' is any human being who by Christ is forgiven of their sins, and who are given eternal life by Christ for eternity with Him.....

              When do you see Abraham or Noah or Job becoming 'Christians', and attaining the same eternal destiny we modern 'Christians' will have?

              As I see it, there are only two etermal destinies; Christians with Christ partaking of His eternal life, eternally with Him; or
              the unredeemed and unrepentant, with the Devil and His angels, eternally in the place prepared for them.
              Just so that we are on the same page when I answer, can you define the "eternal destiny we modern Christians will have" (with some scriptures please). You see, Abraham was a friend of God, prepared a meal for Jesus at Mamre, believed what He said about Sodom, was prepared to kill his only heir in obedience, and will sit in the Kingdom when Jesus comes and sets it up on earth (Matt.8:11; Lk.13:28). What will you be doing?

              I'm not ducking your question. My question is deadly serious.

              Comment


              • #52
                Re: The spirit and the soul.

                Originally posted by Noeb View Post
                I didn't say anything about this.
                Let's start again then. What is your definition of Israel receiving "new" spirits?

                Comment


                • #53
                  Re: The spirit and the soul.

                  Originally posted by Noeb View Post
                  The individual is born again. All scriptures. As it says "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." There isn't any scripture that suggest only something called a spirit is born again. How is the breath of life from God born again?
                  Good question. It is the fallen soul that is born again. We are born again of the Spirit (caps), i.e. Spirit of God.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Re: The spirit and the soul.

                    Originally posted by Noeb View Post
                    I've never known anyone that had this figured out. Only some that think they do.
                    Thanks for that, bro...

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Re: The spirit and the soul.

                      Originally posted by Walls View Post

                      [...]

                      So while the body ceases to function and molds back to the elements the SOUL lives on and though sundered from the body and spirit, is retained as it is.
                      Which is not a biblical statement I'm afraid. Ezekiel says "the soul that sinneth shall die" Eze. 18:4 and 20. Since we are all sinners all our souls (thus we) die. It is the o so deeply rooted lie of Satan to Eve when he said to her "Ye shall not surely die" while God said according to the Hebrew "dying thou shalt die", Gen. 2:17. When God created man He didn't give him a soul but he became a living soul.

                      The soul is what makes the body feel (desire), see and hear things as we can see from for example in Deu. 12:20 "thy soul longeth to eat flesh", so the sensory things. The soul is where our senses are directed to as the quote above shows. Much of the word "soul" is translated wrongly for example in Lev. 21:11 "Neither shall he go in to any dead body..." which actually says soul. Animals are souls, and they die as well as Ecc. 3:19 says "For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity".

                      Paul says in 1 Thess 5:23 "...your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Thus the "your" is behind the three, is the core which God one way or the other preservers, not because it's immortal, but because God has decided to preserve it.
                      "Study to shew thyself approved unto God,
                      a workman that needeth not to be ashamed,
                      rightly dividing the word of truth."
                      2 Tim. 2:15

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Re: The spirit and the soul.

                        Originally posted by Walls View Post
                        The present discussion on the rebirth versus receiving a new spirit is profitable. In my second posting #15 I proposed that God's initial and unchanging plan was to work on man from the inside. This is established pictorially by eating, and established doctrinally by various scriptures, notably the whole gospel of John. God wants to make His "ABODE" in man and permeate man's humanity with His divinity. This is the essential Jesus Christ - a Man born of the Holy Spirit AND a woman. And so scripture assures us that it is, "... the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory" (Colossians 1:27). So God allows the most perfect of mankind, Jesus, to go through the whole human experience and add it to His divinity. And when this is done, certain of men receive this "processed Christ" (Jn.7:39, 20:22). Then, our Lord Jesus, as the Spirit, starts a work from the human spirit to transform the soul and resurrect the body.

                        But Israel presents a problem. To the seed of Abraham, with only the condition that they be circumcised, is promised Canaan "for an everlasting possession". But the Israelite, up to and including the generation that was alive at the time of the birth of our Lord Jesus, did NOT have a Saviour to believe in. God's testimony through Israel is not by an INNER WORK starting with Christ inside the human spirit. It is an appeal to the flesh to keep about 630 laws. Theses Laws are divided into those regulating worship of Jehovah, those regulating social and sexual life, those regulating dieta dn clothing, and those regulating how to treat the Land they lived on. The Covenant of Sinai, made some 430 years after the Covenant of Promise made to Abraham, unfortunately worked AGAINST Israel. The Covenant of Law's conditions required Israel to be kicked out Canaan if broken. So how is God going to keep His PROMISE on the one hand - the PROMISE that all seed of Abraham via Isaac would eventually have Canaan for an everlasting possession, and at the same time keep His side of the Covenant made with the 12 Tribes which cases them to kicked out of Canaan. IT IS NOT VIA REBIRTH of the human spirit - for that is by FAITH (Jn.1:12-13).

                        The solution is to give the Israelite a new spirit. To see why this works so well, we must examine the human spirit in scripture. And this is what we find out. God had a very intricate, beautiful and wonderfully made constellation of dust - the body of Adam. To ANIMATE this lump of earth, God breaths into Adam. And Adam "BECOMES a living soul". But this animating breath of God is NOT His divinity. It is that part of God's life that can give ANIMATION to an INANIMATE object. So we learn that the SAME BREATH also animated the cows and crows. Ecclesiastes 3:18-20 informs us;

                        18 "I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts.
                        19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.
                        20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again."


                        The breath that God breathed into the fowl of the air and the lion is the same breath - a breath to animate the inanimate. And James 2:26 tells us that this "breath", or spirit, IS THAT PART THAT IS OUR LIFE. But the man's spirit, although not different to that of a bull or a mouse, is, by decree of God, TO BE PRESERVED at death. Ecclesiastes 3:21 goes on to tell us;

                        "Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?"

                        And Ecclesiastes 12:7 gives more on this. It says; "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it."

                        The HUGE difference between man and beast is RESURRECTION. The animating source of the human - the spirit - goes upward to God to be kept for the resurrection, while that of the beast is not kept. Our Lord Jesus commends His spirit to His Father in heaven, and at resurrection, in Luke 8:55, we learn, "And her spirit came again, and she arose straightway: and he commanded to give her meat." The spirit of a Christian is actually no different EXCEPT IN ONE CRUCIAL ASPECT. IT POSSESSES GOD'S ETERNAL LIFE (Jn.3:15-16; 1st Jn.5:1). But what of the Israelite? ALL Israel are concluded by God in UNBELIEF. Their spirits are not modified. They do not possess God's Life that would enable them to LIVE a Lawful Life? So in resurrection, they receive a NEW SPIRIT. The Hebrew authorities are unanimous when it comes to the meaning of the Hebrew word "NEW". It means BOTH (i) made pristine, and (ii) totally a new creation. In God's promise in Ezekiel 11:19, 18:31 and 36:26 to give all Israel a NEW SPIRIT it means that at least it is made pristine - that is, like Adam's before the fall, and at best it is a TOTALLY NEW SPIRIT. And because the spirit of man is his LIFE, the spirit will propose to the man a certain behavior.

                        The Christian's spirit proposes Christ's LIFE, or a Christ-like LIFE, because it has, and is, permeated with Christ's Spirit. And the Israeli's new spirit will propose a LIFE of OBEDIENCE. And so, with the Israelite bestowed with a new spirit, he will keep the Law AND NEVER BEE THROWN OUT OF CANAAN AGAIN. The Christian is thus equipped to display God - to be in His image and likeness, and the Israelite is thus equipped to keep the Law. This EQUIPMENT is the SPIRIT that he has. The Christian who believed, HAS, in his spirit, the Spirit of Christ, and so he can act like Christ. The Israelite who did NOT BELIEVE, has, by promise, a NEW human spirit made pristine and/or totally new by God. He cannot act like Christ like the Christian, but he can keep the New Covenant of Law as Jeremiah 31:33 says. And so our sovereign and magnificent God solves a huge dilemma by infusing His LIFE into the Christian's spirit, and by giving a pristine spirit to the Jew.

                        The spirit of man is the key to God achieving His plan and showing His glory.
                        Your view of Israel with regards to the law and giving of the spirit is not exactly in line with scripture. This would seem a slight departure from the current OP, nevertheless, I believe it pertinent to deal with the wider sub-topics if we are to get a comprehensive understanding of the interrelationship between the soul and the spirit.

                        According to you, "the Israel generation that lived at the time of the birth of Jesus didn't have a Saviour to believe in"; this is grossly exaggerated and erroneous because if it was true, Jesus Christ' mission would have been a failure. But it was a success because while the majority of Israel didn't believe, a few did and from that few, a worldwide church was established.

                        You further posited that the law, given 430 years after the covenant of Promise to Abraham "worked against Israel". This would suggest that God set an impossible hurdle for Israel to overcome. Fortunately, as difficult (but not impossible) as the law was, we know that many OT Israel was devout under the law and thereby pleased God. Therefore the law was not against Israel as claimed.

                        Furthermore, we are told in Gal 3:24 that the law was our schoolmaster to bring us to Christ. Since Gentiles didn't participate in the law but Israel, it makes no sense to believe that Israel's redemption lies in the supposed "Israel's new spirit" purportedly to be given in the future. This position makes invalidates Jesus Christ' finished work on the cross for the Jew and Gentile.

                        Next is your position on the given of the "Spirit". For you said: "And the Israeli's new spirit will propose a LIFE of OBEDIENCE. And so, with the Israelite bestowed with a new spirit, he will keep the Law AND NEVER BEE THROWN OUT OF CANAAN AGAIN". I recall your position on a Thread I started a couple of years ago about the 'new covenant' and the Spirit of Christ. While I am among those that argued that the new covenant is already in place and pertains to all who believe, you posited that it is yet in the future and will be exclusively for Israel. This contention is wrong. And it, unfortunately, continues to shape to view of Israel's relationship with Christ in the NT. There is no *spirit* that will make Israel keep the law that has been abrogated since the cross!

                        Finally, Israel is already dwelling in the land promised to them. Although they have been attacked, subjugated, taken captive and exiled on numerous occasions, yet God has remained faithful to his word as they have always returned to their promised land. Even the attack and fall of Jerusalem to the AC in the end times will not void God's promise because it will be temporal until the Messiah returns to defeat him and restore the land to the heirs of promise which NOW pertains to all that believe.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Re: The spirit and the soul.

                          Originally posted by Brother Mark View Post
                          I agree with you about that. Having a "dead" spirit doesn't mean it cannot function in some capacity. For instance, in the old days, when a phone was disconnected from the wall, we would say the "phone is dead". It still had the ability to work, but had to be plugged into the right source. A spirit can still function, but what is it's source? Is it connected to God, the life giving Spirit? (i.e. a live spirit) Or is it connected to the dark side? (a dead spirit). A phone connected to the phone line is a live phone. One that is disconnected to the phone line is a dead phone. IMO, it is the same with the spirit of man.

                          I won't attempt to explain the differences in soul, spirit and body that have already been excellently explained, but I would like to add something to think about (briefly).

                          The soul of man can choose which side he is going to walk in. The body has 5 senses. I think the spirit of man does as well. For instance, Paul talks about the "eyes of our heart" being opened. The Psalmist says "taste" and see that the Lord is good. Hebrews talks about having our "senses trained" to discern good and evil. Jesus talked about having "ears" to hear. God calls the prayers of the saints "incense (i.e. He can smell them)". Paul also talks about walking in the "unseen" (2 Corinthians 4:16-5:10 especially 4:18 and 5:7) rather than the seen.

                          My point? What will we follow? Things we can see, touch, taste, hear, and smell in the body, which is the flesh or natural man? Or do we walk in the eternal, the spiritual, and the things we can see, smell, taste, touch, and hear with our spirit. Which side will our soul pay attention to the most? Which side are we going to be governed by? When we are carnel, though saved, we pay more attention to the natural and live and do things for the natural man (our flesh) to be satisfied. But if we are spiritual, then our soul is getting it's information, and direction from the spiritual side.

                          If I could draw a picture, I would put the soul, as picture of a man in the middle, with a window on either side. One window would be labled "spirit" and the other "body". The man could then turn to the spirit window through which to view all things through, or the body/natural window through which to see all things through. For a saved man, we can choose to see things as God does, through our spirit, and be encouraged. Or we can choose to see things as the natural man does and be discouraged and carnel.

                          God bless!
                          Your insight brings yet a new and rich dimension to the discourse. I think your analogy cuts through the heart of the topic. According to Ezekiel 18:20, "the soul that sins shall die". Your allegorical window pointing to life and death aptly mirrors this.

                          A dead spirit relishes the pleasures of the flesh (the 5 senses listed). But a living spirit is in tandem with God and thus subjects the whole (body + soul) to operate in that spiritual realm that ultimately saves.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Re: The spirit and the soul.

                            Originally posted by ross3421 View Post
                            Not so much interchangeable but inseparable. The spirit resides in the soul of a man's body but at death the spirit leaves the body and soul.
                            That much I understand. I'm just saying that I was hitherto confused and never grasped the difference between them in the OT.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Re: The spirit and the soul.

                              Originally posted by Aviyah View Post
                              That's a good question. I don't believe the souls of the dead are able to roam the Earth, mainly because of the parable/story Jesus gave of a rich man who died:

                              The rich man also died and was buried, and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.’ But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner bad things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish. And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.’

                              And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father, to send him to my father's house - for I have five brothers - so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.’ But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.’ And he said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ He said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead.’” (Luke 16)

                              So it seems that the rich man understood he was in a prison, otherwise why would he ask that Lazarus be the one to warn his family rather than himself? Evidently he thinks Lazarus is free in heaven, and this might leave open the possibility of redeemed souls being able to roam the Earth. That could explain the appearance of Samuel to the medium after his death in 1 Samuel 28, and the souls in Revelation being aware of world events. But my personal opinion is that it's impossible (or at least not permitted) for either side to appear, and that the medium in 1 Samuel was simply lying.

                              But to answer your question directly:

                              IF the dead were able to roam the earth, it would be the soul - the unique and conscious essence of the person. I believe it's left vague in Scripture for a reason, and that too much fascination only leads to danger. Hence God made necromancy or any attempt to communicate with the dead a capital offense. Does that mean it's possible? Maybe. My educated opinion is that any sort of "appearance" of a dead person is either an illusion or demonic, given that Jesus's story indicates God does not permit souls in either Hades or heaven to warn living people. I understand that any heavenly messengers to Earth are exclusively angels.
                              You actually explained why the soul is not conscious and not able to roam the earth - it is because it lacks the spirit which gives life.
                              A soul without spirit is dust which decays and soul which unless it is quickened, that is given life by God by His spirit is dead.
                              This is why scripture notes that a soul cannot praise God when it is in hades.

                              In fact the ONLY place in the entire Bible which remotely suggests a dead person, that is a soul without spirit can be aware is found in the parable you quote, and nowhere else. And this parable is NOT a statement of a reality found when people die, but is using a known idea that people had about the dead, which lingers even today in the idea of ghosts.
                              Yet we can KNOW it is NOT a statement of reality, for two clear reasons:
                              1) As noted in this thread and by you, the soul has no spirit and so is dead and has no means to connect with reality.
                              2) The Rich man is in torment, which speaks of having ALREADY been judged, and yet we know the judgement has not yet fallen. So how can someone be in the place of those who have been judged when he hasn't been judged.

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                              • #60
                                Re: The spirit and the soul.

                                Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
                                Once again, my appreciations. I recognise that my question falls outside the scripture and therefore difficult to be scripturally supported. But it is a true and recurring fact nonetheless.

                                I must clarify that am not in support of communication between the living and the dead in any shape or form, nor was my query in that regard. The Bible expressly forbids it and I stand by that too. I'm just trying to get a better understanding of friends and family who see their loved deceased ones in dreams. Given what I've learned about the soul and spirit from the OP, I was seeking confirmation that it is the"soul" that is at play in such a scenario?
                                If you mean the soul of the dreamer that's at play, yep, that would be my opinion also. But I wouldn't say the souls of the family members were related based on those same Scriptures.
                                「耶和華聖潔無比,獨一無二,沒有磐石像我們的上帝。
                                撒母耳記上 (1 Samuel) 2:2

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