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  • #61
    Re: The spirit and the soul.

    Originally posted by ForHisglory View Post
    In fact the ONLY place in the entire Bible which remotely suggests a dead person, that is a soul without spirit can be aware is found in the parable you quote, and nowhere else.
    There are actually several other places, some of which I've even quoted in this thread already, but I'd rather not get into it here because it's off-topic. If you post a new thread in Contro, I'll contribute there and happily give the full proof.

    2) The Rich man is in torment, which speaks of having ALREADY been judged, and yet we know the judgement has not yet fallen. So how can someone be in the place of those who have been judged when he hasn't been judged.
    Not true - Hades is the waiting place for judgment, which follows the resurrection of the dead:

    The rich man also died and was buried, and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes ... (Luke 16)

    The sea gave up its dead, and Death and Hades gave up their dead, and each one was judged according to his deeds. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. (Revelation 20)

    The lake of fire/judgment is not the same as Hades. There is also an angelic equivalent of the Hades prison called Tartarus, where they likewise await the final judgment:

    God did not spare the angels having sinned, but having cast them down to Tartarus, in chains of gloomy darkness, delivered them, being kept for judgment. (2 Peter 2)

    The early English translations unfortunately used the same word, "hell," for these three different places - Hades, Tartarus, Lake of Fire. The rich man in torment was in Hades, and desired to warn the still living people prior to judgment day. Luke 16 is not a picture of the final judgment, but this interim period between death and resurrection.
    「耶和華聖潔無比,獨一無二,沒有磐石像我們的上帝。
    撒母耳記上 (1 Samuel) 2:2

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    • #62
      Re: The spirit and the soul.

      Originally posted by Adonijah View Post
      Which is not a biblical statement I'm afraid. Ezekiel says "the soul that sinneth shall die" Eze. 18:4 and 20. Since we are all sinners all our souls (thus we) die. It is the o so deeply rooted lie of Satan to Eve when he said to her "Ye shall not surely die" while God said according to the Hebrew "dying thou shalt die", Gen. 2:17. When God created man He didn't give him a soul but he became a living soul.

      The soul is what makes the body feel (desire), see and hear things as we can see from for example in Deu. 12:20 "thy soul longeth to eat flesh", so the sensory things. The soul is where our senses are directed to as the quote above shows. Much of the word "soul" is translated wrongly for example in Lev. 21:11 "Neither shall he go in to any dead body..." which actually says soul. Animals are souls, and they die as well as Ecc. 3:19 says "For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity".

      Paul says in 1 Thess 5:23 "...your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Thus the "your" is behind the three, is the core which God one way or the other preservers, not because it's immortal, but because God has decided to preserve it.
      The Bible shows two deaths:
      1. Adam died after 930 years - a physical death where, as I said, the BODY returns to the elements
      2. The "Second Death" the death of the body AND SOUL (Matthew 10:28). This "Second Death" is interchangeably used with "perdition". And the meaning of the Greek word we render "perdition" is "lack of well-being" (Vine).

      You are mixing the two. One is a condition of the BODY - cessation of function, and the other the condition of a LIVING MAN - lack of well being of both body and soul.

      Comment


      • #63
        Re: The spirit and the soul.

        Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
        Your view of Israel with regards to the law and giving of the spirit is not exactly in line with scripture. This would seem a slight departure from the current OP, nevertheless, I believe it pertinent to deal with the wider sub-topics if we are to get a comprehensive understanding of the interrelationship between the soul and the spirit.

        According to you, "the Israel generation that lived at the time of the birth of Jesus didn't have a Saviour to believe in"; this is grossly exaggerated and erroneous because if it was true, Jesus Christ' mission would have been a failure. But it was a success because while the majority of Israel didn't believe, a few did and from that few, a worldwide church was established.

        You further posited that the law, given 430 years after the covenant of Promise to Abraham "worked against Israel". This would suggest that God set an impossible hurdle for Israel to overcome. Fortunately, as difficult (but not impossible) as the law was, we know that many OT Israel was devout under the law and thereby pleased God. Therefore the law was not against Israel as claimed.

        Furthermore, we are told in Gal 3:24 that the law was our schoolmaster to bring us to Christ. Since Gentiles didn't participate in the law but Israel, it makes no sense to believe that Israel's redemption lies in the supposed "Israel's new spirit" purportedly to be given in the future. This position makes invalidates Jesus Christ' finished work on the cross for the Jew and Gentile.

        Next is your position on the given of the "Spirit". For you said: "And the Israeli's new spirit will propose a LIFE of OBEDIENCE. And so, with the Israelite bestowed with a new spirit, he will keep the Law AND NEVER BEE THROWN OUT OF CANAAN AGAIN". I recall your position on a Thread I started a couple of years ago about the 'new covenant' and the Spirit of Christ. While I am among those that argued that the new covenant is already in place and pertains to all who believe, you posited that it is yet in the future and will be exclusively for Israel. This contention is wrong. And it, unfortunately, continues to shape to view of Israel's relationship with Christ in the NT. There is no *spirit* that will make Israel keep the law that has been abrogated since the cross!

        Finally, Israel is already dwelling in the land promised to them. Although they have been attacked, subjugated, taken captive and exiled on numerous occasions, yet God has remained faithful to his word as they have always returned to their promised land. Even the attack and fall of Jerusalem to the AC in the end times will not void God's promise because it will be temporal until the Messiah returns to defeat him and restore the land to the heirs of promise which NOW pertains to all that believe.
        Thanks for the time you took to answer me. Your points are taken. I could answer you point for point, but, as you says, this has been done in previous threads. If you decide to show any one statement of mine wrong, I will gladly answer.

        Comment


        • #64
          Re: The spirit and the soul.

          Originally posted by Aviyah View Post
          I don't think the consciousness of the soul pertains to these other topics. Whether the soul is conscious or not, the Lazarus parable still shows they are not allowed to communicate with the living. Praying to dead saints (or angels for that matter) is vain and sinful because it's a form of idolatry, and they have no power apart from God. That wouldn't change if they were conscious or unconscious of it.

          But we should try to avoid this tangent to prevent Trivalee's thread from getting sent to Contro. The spirit and soul can be defined without getting into soul-sleep.
          Wise words from a wise lady. Please refrain from any comment or reply related to the topic of of soul sleep, which is not allowed in Bible Chat.

          When we stand before the Judgment Seat, we will have retained only two things from our earthly life: what God gave us, and what we did with what He gave us.

          Comment


          • #65
            Re: The spirit and the soul.

            Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
            Does anyone know the difference between the spirit and the soul, please? What role does each play? I've grappled with their meaning for years and don't seem any wiser today than I was 10 years ago.

            Please help..
            Real quick, from a function standpoint:

            Soul:
            Mind
            Will
            Emotion

            Spirit:
            Conscience
            Communion
            Intuition

            Using the Tabernacle as an analogy: our Spirit is the Holy of Holies; our soul is the Holy Place and our body is the Outer Court.

            Another helpful thought is that our soul is our personality and individuality.
            Some people don't mind contradicting themselves as long as they can keep disagreeing with you...

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            • #66
              Re: The spirit and the soul.

              soul = spirit

              spirit = soul
              James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

              Comment


              • #67
                Re: The spirit and the soul.

                Originally posted by Walls View Post
                Let's start again then. What is your definition of Israel receiving "new" spirits?
                Obviously I said "This implies a difference between pre and post fall spirit which cannot be supported with scripture." because it's not a possibility, so obviously I hold to the other which is clearly supported - we are a new creature -- Addition of the Spirit.

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                • #68
                  Re: The spirit and the soul.

                  Originally posted by Walls View Post
                  The Bible shows two deaths:
                  1. Adam died after 930 years - a physical death where, as I said, the BODY returns to the elements
                  2. The "Second Death" the death of the body AND SOUL (Matthew 10:28). This "Second Death" is interchangeably used with "perdition". And the meaning of the Greek word we render "perdition" is "lack of well-being" (Vine).

                  You are mixing the two. One is a condition of the BODY - cessation of function, and the other the condition of a LIVING MAN - lack of well being of both body and soul.
                  Matthew 10:28 isn't talking about second death, I'm not mixing anything. What Matthew says is that man can cause the loss of life, but can't really kill, the same as man can't really make life, only reproduce. That only God can do, so you are still allured in believing the lie of Satan.

                  Job says in v. 33:32 "Yea his soul draweth near unto the grave, and his life to the destroyers", Psa. 30:3 says "O LORD, thou hast brought up my soul from the grave: thou hast kept me alive, that I should not go down to the pit", Psa. 49:15 says "But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave: for he shall receive me. Selah", Psa. 89:48 says "What man is he that liveth, and shall not see death? shall he deliver his soul from the hand of the grave? Selah", so we clearly do not have an immortal soul but are a mortal soul and the soul that sinneth dies, Ezel 18:4.
                  "Study to shew thyself approved unto God,
                  a workman that needeth not to be ashamed,
                  rightly dividing the word of truth."
                  2 Tim. 2:15

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Re: The spirit and the soul.

                    Originally posted by Adonijah View Post
                    What Matthew says is that man can cause the loss of life, but can't really kill
                    Mathew does not say that. Matthew said man can very much kill, but only kill the human body ie: the first death. What man cannot do is kill the soul.

                    Mat_10:28* And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
                    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Re: The spirit and the soul.

                      Originally posted by Noeb View Post
                      Obviously I said "This implies a difference between pre and post fall spirit which cannot be supported with scripture." because it's not a possibility, so obviously I hold to the other which is clearly supported - we are a new creature -- Addition of the Spirit.
                      But we were not discussing "we". We were discussion Israel who do not believe. And I notice you did not counter my posting #47. Are we in agreement then?

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Re: The spirit and the soul.

                        Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
                        Mathew does not say that. Matthew said man can very much kill, but only kill the human body ie: the first death. What man cannot do is kill the soul.

                        Mat_10:28* And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
                        I understand that is what you choose to believe.
                        "Study to shew thyself approved unto God,
                        a workman that needeth not to be ashamed,
                        rightly dividing the word of truth."
                        2 Tim. 2:15

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Re: The spirit and the soul.

                          Originally posted by Adonijah View Post
                          Matthew 10:28 isn't talking about second death, I'm not mixing anything. What Matthew says is that man can cause the loss of life, but can't really kill, the same as man can't really make life, only reproduce. That only God can do, so you are still allured in believing the lie of Satan.

                          Job says in v. 33:32 "Yea his soul draweth near unto the grave, and his life to the destroyers", Psa. 30:3 says "O LORD, thou hast brought up my soul from the grave: thou hast kept me alive, that I should not go down to the pit", Psa. 49:15 says "But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave: for he shall receive me. Selah", Psa. 89:48 says "What man is he that liveth, and shall not see death? shall he deliver his soul from the hand of the grave? Selah", so we clearly do not have an immortal soul but are a mortal soul and the soul that sinneth dies, Ezel 18:4.
                          Matthew 10:28: "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in GEHENNA."

                          Mark 9:43-48:

                          43 "And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into GEHENNA, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
                          44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
                          45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into GEHENNA, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
                          46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
                          47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into GEHENNA fire:
                          48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched."


                          Revelation 21:8: "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."

                          Matthew 10:28 says that where God torments men is Gehenna. Mark 9:43-48 says the place where men are tormented is Gehenna, and that this place is one of unquenchable fire and immortal worms. Revelation 21:8 says that the place were there is a lake of fire is the Second Death. They all speak of the same place - Gehenna, unquenchable fire and immortal worms, Lake of Fire and the SECOND DEATH.

                          The body that is killed by men ceases to function and returns to the elements. It feels nothing. But those that God torments ARE LIVING since they (i) have their body and soul together, and (ii) entertain their own fire and their own worms and can feel it. Added to this, the two deaths are different because in the one MEN KILL, and in the other GOD KILLS. In Gethsemane our Lord Jesus is bodily alive, but says His SOUL is "exceeding sorrowful unto DEATH" - a condition of lack of well being. And this lack of well being is so acute that His BODY bleeds through the pores. Later he is crucified and is physically dead. That is, TWO DIFFERENT DEATHS.

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                          • #73
                            Re: The spirit and the soul.

                            Originally posted by ForHisglory View Post
                            You actually explained why the soul is not conscious and not able to roam the earth - it is because it lacks the spirit which gives life.
                            A soul without spirit is dust which decays and soul which unless it is quickened, that is given life by God by His spirit is dead.
                            This is why scripture notes that a soul cannot praise God when it is in hades.

                            In fact the ONLY place in the entire Bible which remotely suggests a dead person, that is a soul without spirit can be aware is found in the parable you quote, and nowhere else. And this parable is NOT a statement of a reality found when people die, but is using a known idea that people had about the dead, which lingers even today in the idea of ghosts.
                            Yet we can KNOW it is NOT a statement of reality, for two clear reasons:
                            1) As noted in this thread and by you, the soul has no spirit and so is dead and has no means to connect with reality.
                            2) The Rich man is in torment, which speaks of having ALREADY been judged, and yet we know the judgement has not yet fallen. So how can someone be in the place of those who have been judged when he hasn't been judged.
                            This is a pertinent question. I have always seen this parable as merely allegorical and devoid of reality. We know that Abraham is not yet in heaven nor is Lazarus. The moral of the story IMO, is Jesus telling us that we only have this mortal life to decide for or against Him. As Heb 9:27 says, it's appointed unto men once to die, after that the judgment.

                            Furthermore, I believe this is further proof against the PreTrib who believe that unbelievers and lukewarm Christians who missed the rapture will get a second chance of being saved. For, if they only repent and believe after the rapture has occurred, isn't it akin to God sending Lazarus/rapture to warn/convince the earth that the scriptures as delivered by the prophets, Jesus Christ and the apostles are true?

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                            • #74
                              Re: The spirit and the soul.

                              Originally posted by Aviyah View Post
                              Not true - Hades is the waiting place for judgment, which follows the resurrection of the dead:

                              The rich man also died and was buried, and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes ... (Luke 16)

                              The sea gave up its dead, and Death and Hades gave up their dead, and each one was judged according to his deeds. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. (Revelation 20)

                              The lake of fire/judgment is not the same as Hades. There is also an angelic equivalent of the Hades prison called Tartarus, where they likewise await the final judgment:

                              God did not spare the angels having sinned, but having cast them down to Tartarus, in chains of gloomy darkness, delivered them, being kept for judgment. (2 Peter 2)

                              The early English translations unfortunately used the same word, "hell," for these three different places - Hades, Tartarus, Lake of Fire. The rich man in torment was in Hades, and desired to warn the still living people prior to judgment day. Luke 16 is not a picture of the final judgment, but this interim period between death and resurrection.
                              Despite as you pointed out, the old English translation of the grave as hell, I guess many people understand that where hellfire is not that stated, hell should be interpreted as a place of rest (grave, Hades, Sheol) for the dead awaiting the resurrection. If you agree with this rendition, then FHG's observation makes sense because scripture doesn't say the dead are in torment before judgment at the GWTJ.

                              Yet, Luke 16:23 says the rich man was in torment while in hell/grave/Hades/Sheol. The logical conclusion here is that the parable (like all parables) was not factual. But a metaphor teaching the eternal separation between the living and the dead.

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Re: The spirit and the soul.

                                Originally posted by Walls View Post
                                The Bible shows two deaths:
                                1. Adam died after 930 years - a physical death where, as I said, the BODY returns to the elements
                                2. The "Second Death" the death of the body AND SOUL (Matthew 10:28). This "Second Death" is interchangeably used with "perdition". And the meaning of the Greek word we render "perdition" is "lack of well-being" (Vine).

                                You are mixing the two. One is a condition of the BODY - cessation of function, and the other the condition of a LIVING MAN - lack of well being of both body and soul.
                                We said. Ezek 18:20 the soul that sins shall die is akin to 1 Tim 5:6 "but she that lives in pleasure is dead while she liveth". Obviously, death here refers to that of the soul while the flesh may appear nourished and in health.

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