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  • #16
    Re: Fear of losing salvation...

    It might help decide the matter if we accepted two things.
    1. The first, and by far the most important, is that a man's salvation is NOT based on him or his work. It is based on the work of Jesus Christ, and has been heartily accepted by the Father. So when that small seed of faith, which in itself is a gift from God, causes the man to believe and then confess with his mouth, the WHOLE WORK of Christ is applied to that man. So, the work of Christ, approved by the Father being the basis of salvation, to undo it the Father must suddenly stop approving of the work of Jesus Christ His beloved Son - perish the thought. If salvation was based on a MAN'S works, everything would hang in the balance every minute of every day - and no man would have peace and surety. But it is based on a Man Who possessed DEITY, and it becomes; "And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him" (Hebrews 5:9). The salvation wrought by Christ cannot be extinguished since it is by Christ.
    2. Second, you can do almost anything to a man. Torture him, kill him, burn his body, change his name and disfigure him. BUT YOU CANNOT UNDO HIS BIRTH! A man is born to a certain couple, and this cannot be changed. It is a physical impossibility. Prince Charles of Great Britain was born to Queen Elizabeth. Of all men born just before, and of all men born after him, HE ALONE has claim to the throne. This cannot be changed. But what can be changed is that because England is a Constitutional Monarchy, that is, all, including the monarch, are subject to its laws, Prince Charles can lose the throne. If he rebels against his parents, his tutors, the police, breaks the laws, murders and steals, and marries the wrong woman, he can be DISINHERITED. His brother at first, and then later his son, will take the throne instead. Charles will languish in jail instead. But Charles birth and status cannot be changed. So it is with the Christian: His spirit is reborn by divine power. This cannot be changed. He has, as his Father, Jehovah. This cannot be changed. He is an heir of the world by the Covenant of Promise (Gal.3:29; Rom.4:13). But God's Kingdom is a Kingdom where God makes the Laws. It is, in Matthew 6, "THY Kingdom come (to earth), THY will (rules) be done IN EARTH ... ". The Christian can never lose what is his by birth EXCEPT his INHERITANCE. And so in Matthew 7:21-23 we have Christians who did mighty works in Jesus's name, but are refused entry to this Kingdom on the basis that they were lose cannons. They were given the power to do certain things but did it according to THEIR WILL. They re like the Captain of a Boeing 747 in Frankfurt Germany who is commissioned to fly 400 passengers to Los Angeles. Soon after take-off, he discovers that 150 of his passengers are actually going on from Los Angeles to Tokyo. Thinking that it makes sense, he checks his fuel and ascertains that he can fly to Tokyo direct and satisfy these 150 passengers - more than a third of his total passengers. What will happen? When he lands in Tokyo he will, at the orders of the CEO of his company, NEVER AGAIN FLY AS CAPTAIN. He had the power, he had the reason, and he carried out a flight that brought jubilation to over a third of his passengers. BUT HE DID NOT CARRY OUT THE WILL OF THOSE THAT GAVE HIM SUCH POWER.

    So also the Christian. He is born again. He possesses the divine life. God is his Father. He is in line for a throne. He is given power by the Holy Spirit. BUT ... if he does his own thing, is slothful, immoral, sinful and unrighteous, he will be BARRED from the Kingdom when Christ comes to set it up on earth. THIS ... is the threat directed at the wayward Christian!

    Comment


    • #17
      Re: Fear of losing salvation...
      Originally Posted by Walls

      It might help decide the matter if we accepted two things.
      1. The first, and by far the most important, is that a man's salvation is NOT based on him or his work. It is based on the work of Jesus Christ, and has been heartily accepted by the Father. So when that small seed of faith, which in itself is a gift from God, causes the man to believe and then confess with his mouth, the WHOLE WORK of Christ is applied to that man. So, the work of Christ, approved by the Father being the basis of salvation, to undo it the Father must suddenly stop approving of the work of Jesus Christ His beloved Son - perish the thought. If salvation was based on a MAN'S works, everything would hang in the balance every minute of every day - and no man would have peace and surety. But it is based on a Man Who possessed DEITY, and it becomes; "And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him" (Hebrews 5:9). The salvation wrought by Christ cannot be extinguished since it is by Christ.
      2. Second, you can do almost anything to a man. Torture him, kill him, burn his body, change his name and disfigure him. BUT YOU CANNOT UNDO HIS BIRTH! A man is born to a certain couple, and this cannot be changed. It is a physical impossibility. Prince Charles of Great Britain was born to Queen Elizabeth. Of all men born just before, and of all men born after him, HE ALONE has claim to the throne. This cannot be changed. But what can be changed is that because England is a Constitutional Monarchy, that is, all, including the monarch, are subject to its laws, Prince Charles can lose the throne. If he rebels against his parents, his tutors, the police, breaks the laws, murders and steals, and marries the wrong woman, he can be DISINHERITED. His brother at first, and then later his son, will take the throne instead. Charles will languish in jail instead. But Charles birth and status cannot be changed. So it is with the Christian: His spirit is reborn by divine power. This cannot be changed. He has, as his Father, Jehovah. This cannot be changed. He is an heir of the world by the Covenant of Promise (Gal.3:29; Rom.4:13). But God's Kingdom is a Kingdom where God makes the Laws. It is, in Matthew 6, "THY Kingdom come (to earth), THY will (rules) be done IN EARTH ... ". The Christian can never lose what is his by birth EXCEPT his INHERITANCE. And so in Matthew 7:21-23 we have Christians who did mighty works in Jesus's name, but are refused entry to this Kingdom on the basis that they were lose cannons. They were given the power to do certain things but did it according to THEIR WILL. They re like the Captain of a Boeing 747 in Frankfurt Germany who is commissioned to fly 400 passengers to Los Angeles. Soon after take-off, he discovers that 150 of his passengers are actually going on from Los Angeles to Tokyo. Thinking that it makes sense, he checks his fuel and ascertains that he can fly to Tokyo direct and satisfy these 150 passengers - more than a third of his total passengers. What will happen? When he lands in Tokyo he will, at the orders of the CEO of his company, NEVER AGAIN FLY AS CAPTAIN. He had the power, he had the reason, and he carried out a flight that brought jubilation to over a third of his passengers. BUT HE DID NOT CARRY OUT THE WILL OF THOSE THAT GAVE HIM SUCH POWER.


      So also the Christian. He is born again. He possesses the divine life. God is his Father. He is in line for a throne. He is given power by the Holy Spirit. BUT ... if he does his own thing, is slothful, immoral, sinful and unrighteous, he will be BARRED from the Kingdom when Christ comes to set it up on earth. THIS ... is the threat directed at the wayward Christian!




      Wall, has anyone ever sided with and aligned with your interpretation here?

      Basically, you are saying that one is good enough to be with Jesus eternally but NOT good enough to be with Jesus for 1000 years on the earth

      It can easily be concluded from your posts that it is OK to be double-minded, all one suffers is staying up in heaven while Jesus is on the earth for 1000 years
      --
      Slug1--out

      ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~

      ~John 6:62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before?~ (Jesus is Eternal - existed before becoming a man)

      Comment


      • #18
        Re: Fear of losing salvation...

        Originally posted by Slug1 View Post
        For those who believe that once saved, always saved... have you ever feared for the salvation of others who you know, have believed unto Christ?

        If not... why does Paul?

        Or let me ask it this way, if it is believed that Paul is not touching on salvation with this fear... why the fear at all, if salvation is secure and there in no need for this warning/fear


        2 Corinthians 11: 1 I hope you will put up with a little more of my foolishness. Please bear with me. 2 For I am jealous for you with the jealousy of God himself. I promised you as a pure bride to one husband—Christ. 3 But I fear that somehow your pure and undivided devotion to Christ will be corrupted, just as Eve was deceived by the cunning ways of the serpent. 4 You happily put up with whatever anyone tells you, even if they preach a different Jesus than the one we preach, or a different kind of Spirit than the one you received, or a different kind of gospel than the one you believed. 5 But I don’t consider myself inferior in any way to these “super apostles” who teach such things. 6 I may be unskilled as a speaker, but I’m not lacking in knowledge. We have made this clear to you in every possible way.

        7 Was I wrong when I humbled myself and honored you by preaching God’s Good News to you without expecting anything in return? 8 I “robbed” other churches by accepting their contributions so I could serve you at no cost. 9 And when I was with you and didn’t have enough to live on, I did not become a financial burden to anyone. For the brothers who came from Macedonia brought me all that I needed. I have never been a burden to you, and I never will be. 10 As surely as the truth of Christ is in me, no one in all of Greece will ever stop me from boasting about this. 11 Why? Because I don’t love you? God knows that I do.

        12 But I will continue doing what I have always done. This will undercut those who are looking for an opportunity to boast that their work is just like ours. 13 These people are false apostles. They are deceitful workers who disguise themselves as apostles of Christ. 14 But I am not surprised! Even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. 15 So it is no wonder that his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. In the end they will get the punishment their wicked deeds deserve.
        I do not see this as being a fear for salvation, but a fear for misleading and false teachers and teachings.

        2Co 13:5* Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?*

        Comment


        • #19
          Re: Fear of losing salvation...

          Originally posted by Kalahari View Post
          I do not see this as being a fear for salvation, but a fear for misleading and false teachers and teachings.

          2Co 13:5* Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?*
          I can side here as I mentioned, the scripture can "not" be about salvation. So, fear of being misled and as Jacob's Ladder posted, the "type" of fear helps us understand Paul's concern (JL, I'll respond soon to your post, which is awesome).

          Here is why I question any scriptures that are by their nature, a WARNING. If Once Saved/Always Saved is accurate, Paul should HAVE no concern (fears) for brethren and has NO NEED to warn them of danger. Why, because there IS NO danger... they are saved, false teachers CAN'T lead them away from Christ.

          But there is a consistent warning throughout scripture both OT and NT about turning away from God AFTER having believed

          Because of this consistency through warnings about being led AWAY, especially throughout the NT... why, if one is always saved, no matter what? This would mean, there is no NEED for any warnings. All those warnings, this one specific in the OP, are empty words that mean nothing for the one who is saved, if once saved means always saved is accurate.
          --
          Slug1--out

          ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~

          ~John 6:62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before?~ (Jesus is Eternal - existed before becoming a man)

          Comment


          • #20
            Re: Fear of losing salvation...

            Originally posted by Slug1 View Post
            I can side here as I mentioned, the scripture can "not" be about salvation. So, fear of being misled and as Jacob's Ladder posted, the "type" of fear helps us understand Paul's concern (JL, I'll respond soon to your post, which is awesome).

            Here is why I question any scriptures that are by their nature, a WARNING. If Once Saved/Always Saved is accurate, Paul should HAVE no concern (fears) for brethren and has NO NEED to warn them of danger. Why, because there IS NO danger... they are saved, false teachers CAN'T lead them away from Christ.

            But there is a consistent warning throughout scripture both OT and NT about turning away from God AFTER having believed

            Because of this consistency through warnings about being led AWAY, especially throughout the NT... why, if one is always saved, no matter what? This would mean, there is no NEED for any warnings. All those warnings, this one specific in the OP, are empty words that mean nothing for the one who is saved, if once saved means always saved is accurate.
            Life is not only about salvation. It is also about sanctification. living a life that is holy and acceptable to God and towards our neighbour. For this the Bible is full of warnings and in need of it.

            Comment


            • #21
              Re: Fear of losing salvation...

              Originally posted by Kalahari View Post
              Life is not only about salvation. It is also about sanctification. living a life that is holy and acceptable to God and towards our neighbour. For this the Bible is full of warnings and in need of it.
              Exactly... so if a person who is saved (believed unto Christ), is ALWAYS saved, why fear if they are being led AWAY from sanctification?
              --
              Slug1--out

              ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~

              ~John 6:62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before?~ (Jesus is Eternal - existed before becoming a man)

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: Fear of losing salvation...

                Originally posted by Slug1 View Post
                Wall, has anyone ever sided with and aligned with your interpretation here?
                Honestly, very few. But that is not because they outright disagree. It is that it is not generally taught and they are not faced with it on a day to day basis. I'm always encouraged because those who vehemently disagree never enter the arguments and their merits. Rather they accuse me with out cause. What do you think? Which statement was not true?

                Originally posted by Slug1 View Post
                Basically, you are saying that one is good enough to be with Jesus eternally but NOT good enough to be with Jesus for 1000 years on the earth
                Aaahhh. Just to prove my point esteemed brother. My statements were that one is cast from Jesus's presence for 1,000 years. I never alluded to heaven. I made extra effort with multiple mentions that the Kingdom was set up on earth.

                Originally posted by Slug1 View Post
                It can easily be concluded from your posts that it is OK to be double-minded, all one suffers is staying up in heaven while Jesus is on the earth for 1000 years
                "Double-minded"? A man is born in year 305 AD. At age 30 he is born again. He lives a less than perfect life and is thoroughly back-slidden by the time of his death (Phase 1). In 203?? our Lord Jesus returns and this man is judged at the Seat of Christ. He is found wanting and not qualified to represent Christ in His Kingdom for the first thousand years. (Phase 2). During the 1,000 years he undergoes "boot-camp" in matters spiritual. At the end of the 1,000 years he is found mature and transformed and is welcomed back to Christ's presence where his tears are wiped away (Rev.21:3-4)(Phase 3). Am I "Triple-minded" because I taught that the man went through THREE phases until he was "conformed to the image of Christ" as God foreordained (Rom.8:29).

                Conversely, what if I said that YOU SAID that Satan is stronger than God and can rip eternal life away from you? You would protest vehemently that you did not say that? And you didn't. But that is what you did to me with this "heaven" business.

                Come, let us be fair. Take my posting and statement for statement, show which ones are wrong. Any argument is based on one precept upon another. If the precepts are correct then there is a very good chance that the argument is correct.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: Fear of losing salvation...

                  Originally posted by Slug1 View Post
                  Exactly... so if a person who is saved (believed unto Christ), is ALWAYS saved, why fear if they are being led AWAY from sanctification?
                  Cause God is not mocked, you reap what you sow. There is a better way to live, God's way and therefore the warnings to help us living it. Also our life should glorify God and be a testimony for others. For the glory of God He will not leave us to do as we please.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: Fear of losing salvation...

                    Originally posted by Walls View Post
                    Conversely, what if I said that YOU SAID that Satan is stronger than God and can rip eternal life away from you? You would protest vehemently that you did not say that? And you didn't. But that is what you did to me with this "heaven" business.
                    satan didn't rip eternal life from Adam and Eve either, so we know he can't He can LEAD/deceive one AWAY from the eternal life they have been freely given. In the OP's verses, satans efforts to lead people away are through use of false teachers.

                    At the end of the day, this is WHY Paul has the fear that he has... he knows what can happen to brethren who TURN away from Christ.

                    This is why one of my earlier questions is: do those who believe in once saved, always saved and one of their brethren begin to be led away into false teaching... do they "fear" for their brethren because the once saved always saved means... there IS NOTHING to worry about?

                    Come, let us be fair. Take my posting and statement for statement, show which ones are wrong.
                    Over the years I've witnessed many others try, as well as for some that I tried to discuss your interpretation. You referred to those who make effort to help you, as "your" opponents. So... when you show a willingness to discuss, and I see you discussing with others, I may join in.

                    Until then... all I see from this interpretation you keep posting, is that when one who is saved becomes double-minded, the only consequence is to be "left out" of the 1000 years on the earth and such just has to "wait" up in heaven for the 1000 years to end.
                    --
                    Slug1--out

                    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~

                    ~John 6:62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before?~ (Jesus is Eternal - existed before becoming a man)

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: Fear of losing salvation...

                      Originally posted by Kalahari View Post
                      Cause God is not mocked, you reap what you sow. There is a better way to live, God's way and therefore the warnings to help us living it. Also our life should glorify God and be a testimony for others. For the glory of God He will not leave us to do as we please.
                      Your post here is more aligned with NOT once saved/always saved
                      --
                      Slug1--out

                      ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~

                      ~John 6:62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before?~ (Jesus is Eternal - existed before becoming a man)

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: Fear of losing salvation...

                        Originally posted by Walls View Post
                        A man is born in year 305 AD. At age 30 he is born again. He lives a less than perfect life and is thoroughly back-slidden by the time of his death (Phase 1). In 203?? our Lord Jesus returns and this man is judged at the Seat of Christ. He is found wanting and not qualified to represent Christ in His Kingdom for the first thousand years. (Phase 2). During the 1,000 years he undergoes "boot-camp" in matters spiritual. At the end of the 1,000 years he is found mature and transformed and is welcomed back to Christ's presence where his tears are wiped away (Rev.21:3-4)(Phase 3). Am I "Triple-minded" because I taught that the man went through THREE phases until he was "conformed to the image of Christ" as God foreordained (Rom.8:29).
                        That's quite a convoluted system. I've never read about this boot camp in the Bible. What if a person fails boot camp too?
                        Some people don't mind contradicting themselves as long as they can keep disagreeing with you...

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: Fear of losing salvation...

                          Regarding the topic once saved, always saved; this has been a subject heavily debated.

                          But we read in various passages in the bible, encouraging us to stay steadfast, to watch, to be diligent. But I have come to believe that not everyone who is born again will endure through life's journey having their faith sealed in Christ. Not because the spirit is not strong enough, but because their faith is weak.

                          When we come to God, our faith is at our weakest point. Having faith is the basic building block. But from the point of being born again, we have a work to do. Peter teaches us to give all diligence and to add to our faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; .... and so on.

                          But he goes on to say give diligence to make your calling and election sure. He concludes by saying if we do these things, we shall never fall.

                          2 Peter 1:
                          5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
                          6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
                          7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
                          8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
                          9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
                          10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

                          All of which I think is in alignment with the teachings of Jesus regarding the sower of the seed (Matthew 13:3-30). There were (4) categories of where the seed fell; (1) by the wayside, (2) on stony places, (3) among thorns, (4) into good ground.

                          I would think that a the first three categories have the risk of not making their election and calling sure, perhaps even some in the last category.

                          But I believe if our faith is perfected in the spirit, then we will be secured in our salvation.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Re: Fear of losing salvation...

                            Originally posted by Slug1 View Post
                            Or let me ask it this way, if it is believed that Paul is not touching on salvation with this fear... why the fear at all, if salvation is secure and there in no need for this warning/fear
                            You actually quoted the answer in the text as to what Paul is talking about:

                            12 But I will continue doing what I have always done. This will undercut those who are looking for an opportunity to boast that their work is just like ours. 13 These people are false apostles. They are deceitful workers who disguise themselves as apostles of Christ. 14 But I am not surprised! Even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. 15 So it is no wonder that his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. In the end they will get the punishment their wicked deeds deserve.
                            「耶和華聖潔無比,獨一無二,沒有磐石像我們的上帝。
                            撒母耳記上 (1 Samuel) 2:2

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Re: Fear of losing salvation...

                              Originally posted by Slug1 View Post
                              Your post here is more aligned with NOT once saved/always saved
                              Really? How so?

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Re: Fear of losing salvation...

                                Originally posted by Walls View Post
                                Honestly, very few. But that is not because they outright disagree. It is that it is not generally taught and they are not faced with it on a day to day basis. I'm always encouraged because those who vehemently disagree never enter the arguments and their merits. Rather they accuse me with out cause. What do you think? Which statement was not true?



                                Aaahhh. Just to prove my point esteemed brother. My statements were that one is cast from Jesus's presence for 1,000 years. I never alluded to heaven. I made extra effort with multiple mentions that the Kingdom was set up on earth.



                                "Double-minded"? A man is born in year 305 AD. At age 30 he is born again. He lives a less than perfect life and is thoroughly back-slidden by the time of his death (Phase 1). In 203?? our Lord Jesus returns and this man is judged at the Seat of Christ. He is found wanting and not qualified to represent Christ in His Kingdom for the first thousand years. (Phase 2). During the 1,000 years he undergoes "boot-camp" in matters spiritual. At the end of the 1,000 years he is found mature and transformed and is welcomed back to Christ's presence where his tears are wiped away (Rev.21:3-4)(Phase 3). Am I "Triple-minded" because I taught that the man went through THREE phases until he was "conformed to the image of Christ" as God foreordained (Rom.8:29).

                                Conversely, what if I said that YOU SAID that Satan is stronger than God and can rip eternal life away from you? You would protest vehemently that you did not say that? And you didn't. But that is what you did to me with this "heaven" business.

                                Come, let us be fair. Take my posting and statement for statement, show which ones are wrong. Any argument is based on one precept upon another. If the precepts are correct then there is a very good chance that the argument is correct.
                                So according to your doctrine, God had stipulations on the statement He made when He said " I will NEVER leave you or forsake you" ?

                                Comment

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