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  • #31
    Re: Fear of losing salvation...

    I have heard some people claim that faith is a gift from God, it is NOT! If it is, will the unbeliever not claim that God didn't give him the faith to believe in him?

    Comment


    • #32
      Re: Fear of losing salvation...

      Originally posted by Aviyah View Post
      You actually quoted the answer in the text as to what Paul is talking about:
      My premise is that if once saved/always saved is accurate, then there is NO danger from: 13 These people are false apostles. They are deceitful workers who disguise themselves as apostles of Christ. 14 But I am not surprised! Even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. 15 So it is no wonder that his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. In the end they will get the punishment their wicked deeds deserve.

      So why, any fear at all? Why are we warned NOT to be led away by such false teachers, if there is NO danger based on once saved/always saved?
      --
      Slug1--out

      ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~

      ~John 6:62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before?~ (Jesus is Eternal - existed before becoming a man)

      Comment


      • #33
        Re: Fear of losing salvation...

        Originally posted by Ri Chasu View Post
        There are four types of people. Remember Christ's parable about the sower scattering seed that went on the path, the rocky ground, the thorns, and the good soil.

        Those that are of the good soil cannot lose their salvation simply because they are the true believers in Christ and have already been granted eternal life from Him.

        Those that fell on the rocky ground are all those that immediately receive the word with joy but because they have no root they quickly fall away when trouble comes to them.

        That is the problem with so many since then to even today. You could never tell the difference when you see someone like this at first. Those of rocky ground were never saved to begin with even though it surely appeared so. Even if that person was to die before falling away, God knows what type of soil they are.
        You are right. But for the sake of clarity, those referred to in Heb 6:4-6 are saved because (a) they were once enlightened (b) have tasted of the heavenly gift (c) they have partaken of the Holy Ghost (d) have tasted of the good Word of God.

        The saved enjoy these qualities a-d above which should help separate them from the unbeliever or lukewarm that is neither for nor against Christ. With this view in mind, the question is - do you believe that a saved believer may or may not lose his salvation?

        Comment


        • #34
          Re: Fear of losing salvation...

          Originally posted by Slug1 View Post
          So why, any fear at all? Why are we warned NOT to be led away by such false teachers, if there is NO danger based on once saved/always saved?
          Do you think that danger is limited to losing your personal salvation?
          「耶和華聖潔無比,獨一無二,沒有磐石像我們的上帝。
          撒母耳記上 (1 Samuel) 2:2

          Comment


          • #35
            Re: Fear of losing salvation...

            Originally posted by Aviyah View Post
            Do you think that danger is limited to losing your personal salvation?
            Yes. I would fear that a brethren will loose their salvation if by turning away from Christ to follow false teachers, they have stopped abiding in Christ and the race that HE wants believers to run. I would fear and this fear would lead me to put effort into my brethren as James (5:19-20) exhorts us to do, for the purpose of prevention of the destruction of their soul

            If once saved/always saved is accurate, then I would NOT have this fear (that my brethren can loose salvation) motivating me to correct my brethren because there is no NEED to turn a brethren who's turned away from Christ, back to Him.
            --
            Slug1--out

            ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~

            ~John 6:62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before?~ (Jesus is Eternal - existed before becoming a man)

            Comment


            • #36
              Re: Fear of losing salvation...

              Originally posted by Slug1 View Post
              My premise is that if once saved/always saved is accurate, then there is NO danger from: 13 These people are false apostles. They are deceitful workers who disguise themselves as apostles of Christ. 14 But I am not surprised! Even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. 15 So it is no wonder that his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. In the end they will get the punishment their wicked deeds deserve.

              So why, any fear at all? Why are we warned NOT to be led away by such false teachers, if there is NO danger based on once saved/always saved?
              I am not afraid of believers being led astray, but of people not getting or hearing the Gospel, for how will they believe if they do not hear? We have God's promises regarding His own, what more do we need?

              Comment


              • #37
                Re: Fear of losing salvation...

                Jacob's Ladder cited Matt 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

                It is my sincere opinion that these texts are relevant to our quest for the truth - whether salvation can be lost or not?

                Who are these people that:
                1. Prophesied in the name of the Lord?
                2. Cast out devils?
                3. And did many wonderful works?

                Can an unbeliever or a false prophet use the name of Jesus to do good? For the sake clarity and for those who might point to the various stages of belief encapsulated in the parable of the sower; to cut to the chase, may I remind us that to God there is no position in between? Before God, there are believers and unbelievers, end of! So my question is, can an unbeliever truly use the name of God to do good? Can one call upon a name he doesn't believe or have faith in?

                In Acts 19:13-16 read that some exorcist, reprobate Jews having witnessed the miracles Paul did, took it upon themselves to summon those possessed with evil spirits. And calling upon Jesus who they heard from Paul, hoped to heal these poor souls. I'll let the passage speak for itself.

                Acts 19:14 And there were seven sons of one Sceva, a Jew, and chief of the priests, which did so.

                15 And the evil spirit answered and said Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are ye?
                16 And the man in whom the evil spirit was leaped on them, and overcame them, and prevailed against them so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded.


                What is significant in Jesus Christ' answer in v-23 is that despite saying he didn't know them, he never denied their claim - that they did all these in things in his name! If this observation is wrong, I stand to be corrected. Since the atheist and unbeliever cannot use the name of Jesus for good, I posit that those Jesus said he didn't know was saved believing Christians who probably took the glory meant for God on account of their exploits for themselves.

                Look at the Body of Christ today. There are some ministers of God today, who after starting in righteousness for Christ, filled with pride fall on the wayside. They forget that their healings and miracles come from and not there own strength. They take men's adoration and praises meant for God for themselves forgetting they are merely vessels through which God's power and grace flowed to heal his people. Such Christians might be unaware that they are rejects to the Lord.

                What do you think?

                Comment


                • #38
                  Re: Fear of losing salvation...

                  Originally posted by Kalahari View Post
                  Cause God is not mocked, you reap what you sow. There is a better way to live, God's way and therefore the warnings to help us living it. Also our life should glorify God and be a testimony for others. For the glory of God He will not leave us to do as we please.
                  Originally posted by Slug1 View Post
                  Exactly... so if a person who is saved (believed unto Christ), is ALWAYS saved, why fear if they are being led AWAY from sanctification?
                  In response to Slug1 above, you said: "God is not mocked, you reap what you so". This passage means that God who judges in righteousness can reject a believer who steps outside of faith, among other interpretations, of course.

                  And you went on to talk about a better way to live right with God, etc. Bearing in mind that Slug's question regards a saved person, can't you see how you unwittingly agreed that the saved can lose their salvation? My point is that your answer "God is not mocked, etc" contradicts your position.

                  IOW, you unconsciously concur that the saved may lose their salvation while you openly disagree. Talk about arguing at cross-purposes

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Re: Fear of losing salvation...

                    Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
                    In response to Slug1 above, you said: "God is not mocked, you reap what you so". This passage means that God who judges in righteousness can reject a believer who steps outside of faith, among other interpretations, of course.

                    And you went on to talk about a better way to live right with God, etc. Bearing in mind that Slug's question regards a saved person, can't you see how you unwittingly agreed that the saved can lose their salvation? My point is that your answer "God is not mocked, etc" contradicts your position.

                    IOW, you unconsciously concur that the saved may lose their salvation while you openly disagree. Talk about arguing at cross-purposes
                    No, it has nothing to do with salvation, but sanctification. God will not be mocked and will chasten those that He loves.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Re: Fear of losing salvation...

                      Originally posted by Slug1 View Post
                      satan didn't rip eternal life from Adam and Eve either, so we know he can't He can LEAD/deceive one AWAY from the eternal life they have been freely given. In the OP's verses, satans efforts to lead people away are through use of false teachers.

                      At the end of the day, this is WHY Paul has the fear that he has... he knows what can happen to brethren who TURN away from Christ.

                      This is why one of my earlier questions is: do those who believe in once saved, always saved and one of their brethren begin to be led away into false teaching... do they "fear" for their brethren because the once saved always saved means... there IS NOTHING to worry about?

                      Over the years I've witnessed many others try, as well as for some that I tried to discuss your interpretation. You referred to those who make effort to help you, as "your" opponents. So... when you show a willingness to discuss, and I see you discussing with others, I may join in.

                      Until then... all I see from this interpretation you keep posting, is that when one who is saved becomes double-minded, the only consequence is to be "left out" of the 1000 years on the earth and such just has to "wait" up in heaven for the 1000 years to end.
                      As I said, this is not taught generally. The value of INHERITING the Millennial Kingdom is down-played, for it holds no profit for the teachers and is "bad news". No Pastor who earns his living from his congregation will preach and teach the Millennial Kingdom. Rather he will "scratch itchy ears" with placating words and humanistic activities. Here then is the foundation for Christianity's malaise.

                      The Christian, like Esau, is given a birthright. Rebirth is FOR the Kingdom (Jn.3:3), and the word "ONLY" shows the spirit of Esau. His birth right was ONLY worth a plate of soup. But when it was manifest what he had traded for that momentary call of the flesh, "And Esau said unto his father, Hast thou but one blessing, my father? bless me, even me also, O my father. And Esau lifted up his voice, and wept" (Gen.27:38). Scripture goes further to put Esau in a category. "Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright." (Heb.12:16). And the following verse 17 spells doom. "For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears". And his inheritance became a wilderness and is the only part of earth in the Millennial Kingdom that will not bloom (Jer.49:13). It is lumped together with Sodom (Jer.49:17-18), and besides Armageddon, Jesus Christ only makes ONE OTHER special journey to shed blood when He comes - in Bozrah, capital of Edom (Isa.34:6), before making it un-inhabitable.

                      Esau was Isaac's firstborn. To him was the birthright, and he thought it ONLY worth so much. But for this, God HATED him! Woe to the Christian who thinks that his/her birthright is ONLY so much value. Does this sound gruesome? Maybe I'm wrong, but every Christian is BORN to be a co-king and co-priest with Jesus. And the first thousand years of the KINGDOM is highly estimated by God HIGHLY. Let me pose you a question. In Hebrews 12:2, what was the JOY set before our Lord Jesus? What then is the JOY of the Lord BUT HIS KINGDOM (Matt.25:21-23). He went through all this for a place in His Father's throne. What are you prepared to pay for a place in the throne of Jesus?

                      "To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne."

                      It looks like that only a few will achieve God's plan. The rest .... will hear this from the mouth of their Savior; "... Thou wicked and slothful servant, ... cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew 25:26-30)

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Re: Fear of losing salvation...

                        Originally posted by Walls View Post
                        As I said, this is not taught generally. The value of INHERITING the Millennial Kingdom is down-played, for it holds no profit for the teachers and is "bad news". No Pastor who earns his living from his congregation will preach and teach the Millennial Kingdom. Rather he will "scratch itchy ears" with placating words and humanistic activities. Here then is the foundation for Christianity's malaise.

                        The Christian, like Esau, is given a birthright. Rebirth is FOR the Kingdom (Jn.3:3), and the word "ONLY" shows the spirit of Esau. His birth right was ONLY worth a plate of soup. But when it was manifest what he had traded for that momentary call of the flesh, "And Esau said unto his father, Hast thou but one blessing, my father? bless me, even me also, O my father. And Esau lifted up his voice, and wept" (Gen.27:38). Scripture goes further to put Esau in a category. "Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright." (Heb.12:16). And the following verse 17 spells doom. "For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears". And his inheritance became a wilderness and is the only part of earth in the Millennial Kingdom that will not bloom (Jer.49:13). It is lumped together with Sodom (Jer.49:17-18), and besides Armageddon, Jesus Christ only makes ONE OTHER special journey to shed blood when He comes - in Bozrah, capital of Edom (Isa.34:6), before making it un-inhabitable.

                        Esau was Isaac's firstborn. To him was the birthright, and he thought it ONLY worth so much. But for this, God HATED him! Woe to the Christian who thinks that his/her birthright is ONLY so much value. Does this sound gruesome? Maybe I'm wrong, but every Christian is BORN to be a co-king and co-priest with Jesus. And the first thousand years of the KINGDOM is highly estimated by God HIGHLY. Let me pose you a question. In Hebrews 12:2, what was the JOY set before our Lord Jesus? What then is the JOY of the Lord BUT HIS KINGDOM (Matt.25:21-23). He went through all this for a place in His Father's throne. What are you prepared to pay for a place in the throne of Jesus?

                        "To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne."

                        It looks like that only a few will achieve God's plan. The rest .... will hear this from the mouth of their Savior; "... Thou wicked and slothful servant, ... cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew 25:26-30)
                        Are you aware that verse 30 is one I would utilize to refute what you push?
                        --
                        Slug1--out

                        ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~

                        ~John 6:62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before?~ (Jesus is Eternal - existed before becoming a man)

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Re: Fear of losing salvation...

                          Originally posted by Kalahari View Post
                          I am not afraid of believers being led astray,
                          But every writer that God utilized to write WARNINGS about turning away, stopping in enduring, stopping in producing fruit, stopping in abiding... are
                          --
                          Slug1--out

                          ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~

                          ~John 6:62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before?~ (Jesus is Eternal - existed before becoming a man)

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Re: Fear of losing salvation...

                            I’m not OSAS, but as a pastor, the people I see fall away 99% of the time are new “converts” who don’t stick it out. Rarely, if ever do I see seasoned Christians turn the back and walk away. As for the majority in my comparison, I’d say those people were likely never saved (genuinely regenerated) to begin with.
                            Some people don't mind contradicting themselves as long as they can keep disagreeing with you...

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Re: Fear of losing salvation...

                              Originally posted by Slug1 View Post
                              f once saved/always saved is accurate, then I would NOT have this fear (that my brethren can loose salvation) motivating me to correct my brethren because there is no NEED to turn a brethren who's turned away from Christ, back to Him.
                              What I'm getting at is, are there things that the church should be warned about for risks other than losing salvation?
                              「耶和華聖潔無比,獨一無二,沒有磐石像我們的上帝。
                              撒母耳記上 (1 Samuel) 2:2

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Re: Fear of losing salvation...

                                Originally posted by ChangedByHim View Post
                                I’m not OSAS, but as a pastor, the people I see fall away 99% of the time are new “converts” who don’t stick it out.
                                Wondering, for not sticking it out... meaning going back entirely to the world or going to a place that satisfies their ears and their expectations?

                                Rarely, if ever do I see seasoned Christians turn the back and walk away. As for the majority in my comparison, I’d say those people were likely never saved (genuinely regenerated) to begin with.
                                I always wonder about Demas, a disciple that Paul hand picked and then Paul get pretty upset when Demas turned his back on the faith/ministry work to return to the world. Was Demas "never" a Christian... I can't imagine Paul evaluating fruit wrong in choosing Demas to be a member of his ministry efforts/team
                                --
                                Slug1--out

                                ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~

                                ~John 6:62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before?~ (Jesus is Eternal - existed before becoming a man)

                                Comment

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