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  • #46
    Re: Fear of losing salvation...

    Originally posted by ChangedByHim View Post
    I’m not OSAS, but as a pastor, the people I see fall away 99% of the time are new “converts” who don’t stick it out. Rarely, if ever do I see seasoned Christians turn the back and walk away. As for the majority in my comparison, I’d say those people were likely never saved (genuinely regenerated) to begin with.
    I can understand this argument from both sides. If Christ has started the work in us, He is able to complete that work (see Phil. 1:6 - Hebrews 12:2).

    We must also take stock of our walk in Christ from time to time and make sure we are producing the right fruits:

    Gal. 5:22,23 "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such there is no law."

    And not these:

    Gal. 5:19-21 "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God."

    It says if we do those things, we will not inherit the kingdom!
    John 15:17 "These things I command you, that ye love one another."

    Comment


    • #47
      Re: Fear of losing salvation...

      Originally posted by Aviyah View Post
      What I'm getting at is, are there things that the church should be warned about for risks other than losing salvation?
      No doubt. Paul lays out warnings for staying in milk and not maturing to meat, is an example of warnings that are not salvic in urgency (fear).
      Slug1--out

      ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

      ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

      ~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~


      ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~


      Comment


      • #48
        Re: Fear of losing salvation...

        Originally posted by Deade View Post
        I can understand this argument from both sides. If Christ has started the work in us, He is able to complete that work (see Phil. 1:6 - Hebrews 12:2).

        We must also take stock of our walk in Christ from time to time and make sure we are producing the right fruits:

        Gal. 5:22,23 "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such there is no law."

        And not these:

        Gal. 5:19-21 "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God."

        It says if we do those things, we will not inherit the kingdom!
        Out of curiosity, do you side with Walls in that not inheriting the "Kingdom" means being left in heaven and not participating with Jesus during His Millennial Kingdom for 1000 years, on the earth?
        Slug1--out

        ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

        ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

        ~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~


        ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~


        Comment


        • #49
          Re: Fear of losing salvation...

          Originally posted by Slug1 View Post
          Wondering, for not sticking it out... meaning going back entirely to the world or going to a place that satisfies their ears and their expectations?
          Going back to the world.
          I always wonder about Demas, a disciple that Paul hand picked and then Paul get pretty upset when Demas turned his back on the faith/ministry work to return to the world. Was Demas "never" a Christian... I can't imagine Paul evaluating fruit wrong in choosing Demas to be a member of his ministry efforts/team
          I’ve thought a lot about Demas over the years. Keep in mind that Paul said, “Demas has forsaken me” - not Christ. Paul then said Demas loved this present world over continuing with Paul in the ministry. But this is the same Paul who wrote off John Mark for similar behavior. I think it’s a completely gray area whether Demas was fully backslidden or just wanted out of the ministry.
          Some people don't mind contradicting themselves as long as they can keep disagreeing with you...

          Comment


          • #50
            Re: Fear of losing salvation...

            Originally posted by ChangedByHim View Post
            Going back to the world.

            I’ve thought a lot about Demas over the years. Keep in mind that Paul said, “Demas has forsaken me” - not Christ. Paul then said Demas loved this present world over continuing with Paul in the ministry. But this is the same Paul who wrote off John Mark for similar behavior. I think it’s a completely gray area whether Demas was fully backslidden or just wanted out of the ministry.
            I would say that a distinction between (separating) both John Mark from Demas is that Paul never made any declaration about John Mark returning too or loving the world (that I recall), as he did toward Demas.
            Slug1--out

            ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

            ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

            ~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~


            ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~


            Comment


            • #51
              Re: Fear of losing salvation...

              Originally posted by Slug1 View Post
              I would say that a distinction between (separating) both John Mark from Demas is that Paul never made any declaration about John Mark returning too or loving the world (that I recall), as he did toward Demas.
              I would agree, but my main point is that Paul was a hard line kind of guy. He split up with Barnabas over the dispute. Demas is always vilified but we may just see him in heaven when we get there.

              Originally posted by Slug1 View Post
              I would say that a distinction between (separating) both John Mark from Demas is that Paul never made any declaration about John Mark returning too or loving the world (that I recall), as he did toward Demas.
              I would agree, but my main point is that Paul was a hard line kind of guy. He split up with Barnabas over the dispute. Demas is always vilified but we may just see him in heaven when we get there.
              Some people don't mind contradicting themselves as long as they can keep disagreeing with you...

              Comment


              • #52
                Re: Fear of losing salvation...

                Originally posted by Slug1 View Post
                No doubt. Paul lays out warnings for staying in milk and not maturing to meat, is an example of warnings that are not salvic in urgency (fear).
                Okay, so then why would the fear in 2 Cor. 11 fall into the salvific category rather than this maturity/sanctification?
                「耶和華聖潔無比,獨一無二,沒有磐石像我們的上帝。
                撒母耳記上 (1 Samuel) 2:2

                Comment


                • #53
                  Re: Fear of losing salvation...

                  Originally Posted by Aviyah

                  Okay, so then why would the fear in 2 Cor. 11 fall into the salvific category rather than this maturity/sanctification?
                  Because not maturing into meat eaters of God's Word so one becomes more Christ-like is not about being led away from God. Sanctification is slow, sure but not stopped. Being deceived by false teachers and led away from Jesus, is because sanctification has stopped when one pursues after false teachings.

                  Again, James exhorts us to turn those who have turned to error BACK to God and His truth... so they don't loose their soul.
                  Slug1--out

                  ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

                  ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

                  ~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~


                  ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~


                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Re: Fear of losing salvation...

                    Originally posted by Slug1 View Post
                    Sanctification is slow, sure but not stopped ... led away from Jesus, is because sanctification has stopped
                    Where do you see that sanctification has stopped?
                    「耶和華聖潔無比,獨一無二,沒有磐石像我們的上帝。
                    撒母耳記上 (1 Samuel) 2:2

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Re: Fear of losing salvation...

                      Originally posted by Aviyah View Post
                      Where do you see that sanctification has stopped?
                      Well, sanctification is a process. A process that takes two, God and the believer. When a believer follows God, God continues to work in and this causes change. When a person turns away from God and stops following Him... does God continue to work in them to bring about change? I see in scripture that God convicts them, to turn them back. I see in scripture that God even chastens them, to turn them back. I see in scripture that God exhorts His children to "help" in the turning those who have turned away, back to God. But I also see warnings about stopping in abiding, stopping in running the race, in turning back to the world, failure to endure to the end. In the warnings are consequence for NOT turning back. The consequence(s) is(are) always "fire/punishment" related. Not punishment while alive (physically) but eternal punishment in nature.

                      Sanctification WILL HAVE a result! So if the result is not CONTINUED change over the entire lifetime of a believer, where once change WAS ONCE happening... sanctification stopped.
                      Slug1--out

                      ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

                      ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

                      ~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~


                      ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~


                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Re: Fear of losing salvation...

                        Originally posted by Slug1 View Post
                        Yes. I would fear that a brethren will loose their salvation if by turning away from Christ to follow false teachers, they have stopped abiding in Christ and the race that HE wants believers to run. I would fear and this fear would lead me to put effort into my brethren as James (5:19-20) exhorts us to do, for the purpose of prevention of the destruction of their soul

                        If once saved/always saved is accurate, then I would NOT have this fear (that my brethren can loose salvation) motivating me to correct my brethren because there is no NEED to turn a brethren who's turned away from Christ, back to Him.
                        Before I even address the scripture you put forward I am going to adddress this ... even though I believe in universal salvation I still feel compelled to uplift the truth and speak against falsehood ...

                        And if one's brother's end will be to be shamed for teaching falsehood or folliowing false teachers ISN'T THAT ENOUGH to inspire you SLUG1 ... or is only their loss of salvation ENOUGH FOR YOU???
                        ***
                        Lead me in Your truth and teach me,
                        For You are the God of my salvation;
                        On You I wait all the day.

                        Psalms 25:5
                        ***

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Re: Fear of losing salvation...

                          Originally posted by Christinme View Post
                          Before I even address the scripture you put forward I am going to adddress this ... even though I believe in universal salvation I still feel compelled to uplift the truth and speak against falsehood ...

                          And if one's brother's end will be to be shamed for teaching falsehood or folliowing false teachers ISN'T THAT ENOUGH to inspire you SLUG1:
                          Yes!

                          Turning away from God is not instant separation (loss of salvation), just as sanctification is a process of change into being Christ-likeness, turning away is a process of a hardening of one's heart. Such a heart can always turn back to God and when one does, God restores and continues with sanctifying.
                          Slug1--out

                          ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

                          ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

                          ~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~


                          ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~


                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Re: Fear of losing salvation...

                            Originally posted by Slug1 View Post
                            For those who believe that once saved, always saved... have you ever feared for the salvation of others who you know, have believed unto Christ?

                            If not... why does Paul?

                            Or let me ask it this way, if it is believed that Paul is not touching on salvation with this fear... why the fear at all, if salvation is secure and there in no need for this warning/fear


                            2 Corinthians 11: 1 I hope you will put up with a little more of my foolishness. Please bear with me. 2 For I am jealous for you with the jealousy of God himself. I promised you as a pure bride to one husband—Christ. 3 But I fear that somehow your pure and undivided devotion to Christ will be corrupted, just as Eve was deceived by the cunning ways of the serpent. 4 You happily put up with whatever anyone tells you, even if they preach a different Jesus than the one we preach, or a different kind of Spirit than the one you received, or a different kind of gospel than the one you believed. 5 But I don’t consider myself inferior in any way to these “super apostles” who teach such things. 6 I may be unskilled as a speaker, but I’m not lacking in knowledge. We have made this clear to you in every possible way.

                            7 Was I wrong when I humbled myself and honored you by preaching God’s Good News to you without expecting anything in return? 8 I “robbed” other churches by accepting their contributions so I could serve you at no cost. 9 And when I was with you and didn’t have enough to live on, I did not become a financial burden to anyone. For the brothers who came from Macedonia brought me all that I needed. I have never been a burden to you, and I never will be. 10 As surely as the truth of Christ is in me, no one in all of Greece will ever stop me from boasting about this. 11 Why? Because I don’t love you? God knows that I do.

                            12 But I will continue doing what I have always done. This will undercut those who are looking for an opportunity to boast that their work is just like ours. 13 These people are false apostles. They are deceitful workers who disguise themselves as apostles of Christ. 14 But I am not surprised! Even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. 15 So it is no wonder that his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. In the end they will get the punishment their wicked deeds deserve.
                            The other day after seeing this thread I read all of 2 Corinthians ... to get perspective as to what was being said ...

                            So let us read the very next verses after which you quote ...

                            2 Corinthians 11

                            16 Again I say, let no one think me foolish; but if you do, receive me even as foolish, so that I also may boast a little.

                            17 What I am saying, I am not saying as the Lord would, but as in foolishness, in this confidence of boasting.

                            18 Since many boast according to the flesh, I will boast also.

                            19 For you, being so wise, tolerate the foolish gladly.

                            20 For you tolerate it if anyone enslaves you, anyone devours you, anyone takes advantage of you, anyone exalts himself, anyone hits you in the face.

                            21 To my shame I must say that we have been weak by comparison.

                            But in whatever respect anyone else is bold—I speak in foolishness—I am just as bold myself.

                            22 Are they Hebrews? So am I. Are they Israelites? So am I. Are they descendants of Abraham? So am I.




                            Seems these are the same (type) false teachers going to the Corinthians that went to the Galatians ...



                            Galatians 3

                            1 You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified?

                            2 This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?

                            3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?

                            4 Did you suffer so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain?

                            5 So then, does He who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?



                            These false teachers preached a "different Jesus" ... a Jesus that doesn't save completely but requires MORE than HIM for salvation ... these false teachers preach that what man does after believing will determine if they are actually saved ...
                            ***
                            Lead me in Your truth and teach me,
                            For You are the God of my salvation;
                            On You I wait all the day.

                            Psalms 25:5
                            ***

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Re: Fear of losing salvation...

                              Originally posted by Slug1 View Post
                              Well, sanctification is a process. A process that takes two, God and the believer. When a believer follows God, God continues to work in and this causes change. When a person turns away from God and stops following Him... does God continue to work in them to bring about change? I see in scripture that God convicts them, to turn them back. I see in scripture that God even chastens them, to turn them back. I see in scripture that God exhorts His children to "help" in the turning those who have turned away, back to God. But I also see warnings about stopping in abiding, stopping in running the race, in turning back to the world, failure to endure to the end. In the warnings are consequence for NOT turning back. The consequence(s) is(are) always "fire/punishment" related. Not punishment while alive (physically) but eternal punishment in nature.

                              Sanctification WILL HAVE a result! So if the result is not CONTINUED change over the entire lifetime of a believer, where once change WAS ONCE happening... sanctification stopped.
                              Sanctification is a process for children of God, not all. If sanctification can be stopped with eternal death as consequence, then all the promises of God is of no value.

                              Also Christ would be not a complete Saviour for children of God, only a partial saviour. This is unscriptual and therefore the wrong understanding of what it means to be a child of God. If one leave the faith, which can happen according to the parable of the sower, it is clear because one was not planted in good soil and therefore saved in the first instance.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Re: Fear of losing salvation...

                                Originally posted by Christinme View Post
                                The other day after seeing this thread I read all of 2 Corinthians ... to get perspective as to what was being said ...

                                So let us read the very next verses after which you quote ...

                                2 Corinthians 11

                                16 Again I say, let no one think me foolish; but if you do, receive me even as foolish, so that I also may boast a little.

                                17 What I am saying, I am not saying as the Lord would, but as in foolishness, in this confidence of boasting.

                                18 Since many boast according to the flesh, I will boast also.

                                19 For you, being so wise, tolerate the foolish gladly.

                                20 For you tolerate it if anyone enslaves you, anyone devours you, anyone takes advantage of you, anyone exalts himself, anyone hits you in the face.

                                21 To my shame I must say that we have been weak by comparison.

                                But in whatever respect anyone else is bold—I speak in foolishness—I am just as bold myself.

                                22 Are they Hebrews? So am I. Are they Israelites? So am I. Are they descendants of Abraham? So am I.




                                Seems these are the same (type) false teachers going to the Corinthians that went to the Galatians ...



                                Galatians 3

                                1 You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified?

                                2 This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?

                                3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?

                                4 Did you suffer so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain?

                                5 So then, does He who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?



                                These false teachers preached a "different Jesus" ... a Jesus that doesn't save completely but requires MORE than HIM for salvation ... these false teachers preach that what man does after believing will determine if they are actually saved ...
                                I agree with you sister! Could not rep you.

                                Comment

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