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  • #61
    Re: Fear of losing salvation...

    Originally Posted by Christinme

    The other day after seeing this thread I read all of 2 Corinthians ... to get perspective as to what was being said ...

    So let us read the very next verses after which you quote ...

    2 Corinthians 11

    16 Again I say, let no one think me foolish; but if you do, receive me even as foolish, so that I also may boast a little.

    17 What I am saying, I am not saying as the Lord would, but as in foolishness, in this confidence of boasting.

    18 Since many boast according to the flesh, I will boast also.

    19 For you, being so wise, tolerate the foolish gladly.

    20 For you tolerate it if anyone enslaves you, anyone devours you, anyone takes advantage of you, anyone exalts himself, anyone hits you in the face.

    21 To my shame I must say that we have been weak by comparison.

    But in whatever respect anyone else is bold—I speak in foolishness—I am just as bold myself.

    22 Are they Hebrews? So am I. Are they Israelites? So am I. Are they descendants of Abraham? So am I.




    Seems these are the same (type) false teachers going to the Corinthians that went to the Galatians ...



    Galatians 3

    1 You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified?

    2 This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?

    3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?

    4 Did you suffer so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain?

    5 So then, does He who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?



    These false teachers preached a "different Jesus" ... a Jesus that doesn't save completely but requires MORE than HIM for salvation ... these false teachers preach that what man does after believing will determine if they are actually saved ...

    EXACTLY!

    What do you feel will happen to brethren who turn away from the Jesus that Paul taught and was believed in, when those brethren turn away from the REAL Jesus (that they initially believed in), and begin to follow the jesus that any false teacher, teaches about?
    --
    Slug1--out

    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~

    ~John 6:62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before?~ (Jesus is Eternal - existed before becoming a man)

    Comment


    • #62
      Re: Fear of losing salvation...

      Originally posted by Kalahari View Post
      I agree with you sister! Could not rep you.
      I repped her
      --
      Slug1--out

      ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~

      ~John 6:62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before?~ (Jesus is Eternal - existed before becoming a man)

      Comment


      • #63
        Re: Fear of losing salvation...

        Originally posted by Kalahari View Post
        Sanctification is a process for children of God, not all. If sanctification can be stopped with eternal death as consequence, then all the promises of God is of no value.

        Also Christ would be not a complete Saviour for children of God, only a partial saviour. This is unscriptual and therefore the wrong understanding of what it means to be a child of God. If one leave the faith, which can happen according to the parable of the sower, it is clear because one was not planted in good soil and therefore saved in the first instance.
        The parable teaches some were enduring for a period of time. Unless one is part of the Body, they are not enduring at all. The parable not only shows that some turn/fall away but also give the reason WHY they turned/fell away.
        --
        Slug1--out

        ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~

        ~John 6:62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before?~ (Jesus is Eternal - existed before becoming a man)

        Comment


        • #64
          Re: Fear of losing salvation...

          Originally posted by Slug1 View Post
          EXACTLY!
          Why do you say exactly since you teach that what one does after believing will determine if they are actually saved???

          Originally posted by Slug1 View Post
          What do you feel will happen to brethren who turn away from the Jesus that Paul taught and was believed in, when those brethren turn away from the REAL Jesus (that they initially believed in), and begin to follow the jesus that any false teacher, teaches about?
          Well I believe they will be shamed at the judgement seat of Christ ... and the false teachers will be shamed even more ... and well they could follow satan to the eternal fire to try to avoid their shame ...
          ***
          Lead me in Your truth and teach me,
          For You are the God of my salvation;
          On You I wait all the day.

          Psalms 25:5
          ***

          Comment


          • #65
            Re: Fear of losing salvation...

            Originally posted by Slug1 View Post
            The parable teaches some were enduring for a period of time. Unless one is part of the Body, they are not enduring at all. The parable not only shows that some turn/fall away but also give the reason WHY they turned/fell away.
            According to my understanding only the last can be said to be children of God.

            Comment


            • #66
              Re: Fear of losing salvation...

              Originally posted by Christinme View Post
              Why do you say exactly since you teach that what one does after believing will determine if they are actually saved???

              Well I believe they will be shamed at the judgement seat of Christ ... and the false teachers will be shamed even more ... and well they could follow satan to the eternal fire to try to avoid their shame ...
              In reading both your responses... I said "exactly" because Paul is exhorting "Christians" who have fallen into error. He doesn't want them be shamed or receive punishment as satan and the false teachers they decided to follow instead of continued following of Christ.

              He expresses "fear" and I still need to address Jacob's Ladder's excellent post concerning the fear.

              You do raise the Judgment Seat... question: based on the 2nd response you expressed, do you feel the false teachers will stand before this Judgement Seat?
              --
              Slug1--out

              ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~

              ~John 6:62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before?~ (Jesus is Eternal - existed before becoming a man)

              Comment


              • #67
                Re: Fear of losing salvation...

                Originally posted by Kalahari View Post
                According to my understanding only the last can be said to be children of God.
                Does the parable NOT illuminate that some endured for a period of time?
                --
                Slug1--out

                ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~

                ~John 6:62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before?~ (Jesus is Eternal - existed before becoming a man)

                Comment


                • #68
                  Re: Fear of losing salvation...

                  Originally posted by Slug1 View Post
                  Does the parable NOT illuminate that some endured for a period of time?
                  Can't a man endure for awhile without the Spirit? For sure can one profess nominally to be a Christian and even follow the teachings of Christ, therefore enduring for awhile. When the test of one's faith come it is then that one cannot endure without the Spirit. Either your heart is still hard as the stones the seed fell among or the lust of other things smother you like the thorns among you and you wither and die. It is only when you receive the gospel and your heart and mind was opened by the Spirit to receive it, for it is spiritual, when you are reborn as a child of God that you will endure and bear fruit.

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Re: Fear of losing salvation...

                    Originally posted by Slug1 View Post
                    In reading both your responses... I said "exactly" because Paul is exhorting "Christians" who have fallen into error. He doesn't want them be shamed or receive punishment as satan and the false teachers they decided to follow instead of continued following of Christ.
                    Ok but what Paul is saying is that the false teachers require MORE than believing in Christ as one's savior to actually be saved. And isn't that what you believe???

                    Originally posted by Slug1 View Post
                    He expresses "fear" and I still need to address Jacob's Ladder's excellent post concerning the fear.
                    Yes that was a good post ... especially when one sees how Paul is saying the same to the Corinthians as he was saying to the Galatians ... he is amazed by their foolishness ... they want to rebuild what was destroyed ... they want to go back "under" the law ...

                    Originally posted by Slug1 View Post
                    You do raise the Judgment Seat... question: based on the 2nd response you expressed, do you feel the false teachers will stand before this Judgement Seat?
                    Yes I do ... and also the followers of the false teachers (what is your thoughts on that?) I think Matthew 25:31-46 is relevant here, which is not the scripture I am posting below.

                    2 Corinthians 5

                    10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

                    11 Therefore, knowing the fear of the Lord, we persuade men, but we are made manifest to God; and I hope that we are made manifest also in your consciences.


                    edit note: to clarify that I was not posting the Matthew 25 verses ...
                    Last edited by Christinme; Oct 18 2019, 05:06 PM.
                    ***
                    Lead me in Your truth and teach me,
                    For You are the God of my salvation;
                    On You I wait all the day.

                    Psalms 25:5
                    ***

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Re: Fear of losing salvation...

                      Originally posted by Kalahari View Post
                      Can't a man endure for awhile without the Spirit? For sure can one profess nominally to be a Christian and even follow the teachings of Christ, therefore enduring for awhile. When the test of one's faith come it is then that one cannot endure without the Spirit. Either your heart is still hard as the stones the seed fell among or the lust of other things smother you like the thorns among you and you wither and die.
                      For a person to "endure" at all, they must be re-born (born-again). So your comments about when a person "says" that are a Christian does not mean they are enduring.
                      It is only when you receive the gospel and your heart and mind was opened by the Spirit to receive it, for it is spiritual, when you are reborn as a child of God that you will endure and bear fruit.
                      And these people begin to "endure." The parable teaches about those who believed (were born-again) but in time, turned away and endured no more.

                      A person who was never born-again, NEVER begins to endure.

                      The parable teaches about those who believed, due to this belief, were born-again, because of being born-again are identified in the parable as having BEGUN to endure... again, ONLY those who are born-again, can be identified as having begun to endure.

                      So my question... does the parable NOT illuminate that some endured for a period of time?
                      --
                      Slug1--out

                      ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~

                      ~John 6:62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before?~ (Jesus is Eternal - existed before becoming a man)

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Re: Fear of losing salvation...

                        Originally posted by Slug1 View Post
                        For a person to "endure" at all, they must be re-born (born-again). So your comments about when a person "says" that are a Christian does not mean they are enduring.
                        And these people begin to "endure." The parable teaches about those who believed (were born-again) but in time, turned away and endured no more.

                        A person who was never born-again, NEVER begins to endure.

                        The parable teaches about those who believed, due to this belief, were born-again, because of being born-again are identified in the parable as having BEGUN to endure... again, ONLY those who are born-again, can be identified as having begun to endure.

                        So my question... does the parable NOT illuminate that some endured for a period of time?
                        I believe you are wrong my friend. The only one's reborn in the parable are those of the good soil. All people can endure, but only those of the Spirit will endure till the end, for only they got the grace, faith and Spirit of God.

                        What do you call it when nominal Christians profess to believe and try to follow the law by keeping the commandments of God? Are they not trying to endure that which God has commanded them to do or what are they doing?

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Re: Fear of losing salvation...

                          Originally posted by Slug1 View Post
                          Out of curiosity, do you side with Walls in that not inheriting the "Kingdom" means being left in heaven and not participating with Jesus during His Millennial Kingdom for 1000 years, on the earth?
                          No, I don't believe scripture tells us that anyone goes to heaven, at least not until after the millennial reign. There is no middle ground, we are either saved or lost. Like I stated: when taking stock of our fruits we need to make sure we on on the right path. I feel one can stray from that path. Like it says here:

                          James 5:19,20 "Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins."
                          John 15:17 "These things I command you, that ye love one another."

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Re: Fear of losing salvation...

                            Originally posted by Kalahari View Post
                            I believe you are wrong my friend. The only one's reborn in the parable are those of the good soil. All people can endure, but only those of the Spirit will endure till the end, for only they got the grace, faith and Spirit of God.

                            What do you call it when nominal Christians profess to believe and try to follow the law by keeping the commandments of God? Are they not trying to endure that which God has commanded them to do or what are they doing?
                            What do I call this? I call your response an excellent example of what lesson that Paul is teaching to the Galatians!

                            They believed, began to endure... but due to false teaching (to stop following Jesus and turn BACK to the Law)... this is "an" example of "those" who believed, endured for awhile (the time they followed Christ) but did not endure to the end.
                            --
                            Slug1--out

                            ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~

                            ~John 6:62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before?~ (Jesus is Eternal - existed before becoming a man)

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Re: Fear of losing salvation...

                              Originally posted by Kalahari View Post
                              I believe you are wrong my friend. The only one's reborn in the parable are those of the good soil. All people can endure, but only those of the Spirit will endure till the end, for only they got the grace, faith and Spirit of God.

                              What do you call it when nominal Christians profess to believe and try to follow the law by keeping the commandments of God? Are they not trying to endure that which God has commanded them to do or what are they doing?
                              What do I call this? I call your response an excellent example of what lesson that Paul is teaching to the Galatians!

                              They believed, began to endure... but due to false teaching (to stop following Jesus and turn BACK to the Law)... this is "an" example of "those" who believed, endured for awhile (the time they followed Christ) but did not endure to the end.
                              --
                              Slug1--out

                              ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~

                              ~John 6:62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before?~ (Jesus is Eternal - existed before becoming a man)

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Re: Fear of losing salvation...

                                Originally posted by ChangedByHim View Post
                                I’m not OSAS, but as a pastor, the people I see fall away 99% of the time are new “converts” who don’t stick it out. Rarely, if ever do I see seasoned Christians turn the back and walk away. As for the majority in my comparison, I’d say those people were likely never saved (genuinely regenerated) to begin with.
                                Not only do you have you a life of experience as a shepherd of flock to draw from, seeing all these patterns, but also the Bible warns us of the possibilities of falling away and teaches us what to do to prevent it.

                                I too have come to believe that not everyone who is born again will endure through life's journey having their faith sealed in Christ. Not because the spirit is not strong enough, but because their faith is weak.

                                When we come to God, our faith is at our weakest point. Having faith is the basic building block to being born again. But from the point of being born again, we have a work to do. Peter teaches us to give all diligence to make our calling and election sure.

                                To add to our faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; to knowledge temperance; …….. and so on. Then concludes by saying, for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

                                2 Peter 1:
                                5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
                                6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
                                7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
                                8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
                                9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
                                10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

                                Jesus taught the same thing in a parable regarding the sower of the seed (Matthew 13:3-30).

                                There were (4) categories of where the seed fell; (1) by the wayside, (2) on stony places, (3) among thorns, (4) into good ground.

                                I would think that a the first three categories have the risk of not making their election and calling sure, perhaps even some in the last category, unless that do not bring forth good fruit.
                                Even Jesus said and tree that bringeth forth not good fruit will be hewn down and cast in the fire.

                                But our faith is strengthened in the spirit, so that our salvation can be secured.

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