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  • Fear of losing salvation...

    For those who believe that once saved, always saved... have you ever feared for the salvation of others who you know, have believed unto Christ?

    If not... why does Paul?

    Or let me ask it this way, if it is believed that Paul is not touching on salvation with this fear... why the fear at all, if salvation is secure and there in no need for this warning/fear


    2 Corinthians 11: 1 I hope you will put up with a little more of my foolishness. Please bear with me. 2 For I am jealous for you with the jealousy of God himself. I promised you as a pure bride to one husband—Christ. 3 But I fear that somehow your pure and undivided devotion to Christ will be corrupted, just as Eve was deceived by the cunning ways of the serpent. 4 You happily put up with whatever anyone tells you, even if they preach a different Jesus than the one we preach, or a different kind of Spirit than the one you received, or a different kind of gospel than the one you believed. 5 But I don’t consider myself inferior in any way to these “super apostles” who teach such things. 6 I may be unskilled as a speaker, but I’m not lacking in knowledge. We have made this clear to you in every possible way.

    7 Was I wrong when I humbled myself and honored you by preaching God’s Good News to you without expecting anything in return? 8 I “robbed” other churches by accepting their contributions so I could serve you at no cost. 9 And when I was with you and didn’t have enough to live on, I did not become a financial burden to anyone. For the brothers who came from Macedonia brought me all that I needed. I have never been a burden to you, and I never will be. 10 As surely as the truth of Christ is in me, no one in all of Greece will ever stop me from boasting about this. 11 Why? Because I don’t love you? God knows that I do.

    12 But I will continue doing what I have always done. This will undercut those who are looking for an opportunity to boast that their work is just like ours. 13 These people are false apostles. They are deceitful workers who disguise themselves as apostles of Christ. 14 But I am not surprised! Even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. 15 So it is no wonder that his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. In the end they will get the punishment their wicked deeds deserve.
    Slug1--out

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

    ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

    ~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~


    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~



  • #2
    Re: Fear of losing salvation...

    Originally posted by Slug1 View Post
    For those who believe that once saved, always saved... have you ever feared for the salvation of others who you know, have believed unto Christ?

    If not... why does Paul?

    Or let me ask it this way, if it is believed that Paul is not touching on salvation with this fear... why the fear at all, if salvation is secure and there in no need for this warning/fear


    2 Corinthians 11: 1 I hope you will put up with a little more of my foolishness. Please bear with me. 2 For I am jealous for you with the jealousy of God himself. I promised you as a pure bride to one husband—Christ. 3 But I fear that somehow your pure and undivided devotion to Christ will be corrupted, just as Eve was deceived by the cunning ways of the serpent. 4 You happily put up with whatever anyone tells you, even if they preach a different Jesus than the one we preach, or a different kind of Spirit than the one you received, or a different kind of gospel than the one you believed. 5 But I don’t consider myself inferior in any way to these “super apostles” who teach such things. 6 I may be unskilled as a speaker, but I’m not lacking in knowledge. We have made this clear to you in every possible way.

    7 Was I wrong when I humbled myself and honored you by preaching God’s Good News to you without expecting anything in return? 8 I “robbed” other churches by accepting their contributions so I could serve you at no cost. 9 And when I was with you and didn’t have enough to live on, I did not become a financial burden to anyone. For the brothers who came from Macedonia brought me all that I needed. I have never been a burden to you, and I never will be. 10 As surely as the truth of Christ is in me, no one in all of Greece will ever stop me from boasting about this. 11 Why? Because I don’t love you? God knows that I do.

    12 But I will continue doing what I have always done. This will undercut those who are looking for an opportunity to boast that their work is just like ours. 13 These people are false apostles. They are deceitful workers who disguise themselves as apostles of Christ. 14 But I am not surprised! Even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. 15 So it is no wonder that his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. In the end they will get the punishment their wicked deeds deserve.
    You have asked a very pertinent question. From Jesus Christ to the disciples and apostles, believers throughout the ages have been exhorted to abide in the Christ till the end (Matt 24:13; Rev 2:26). If once saved, forever saved is a genuine doctrine, there would have been no need for this warning, would there?

    Those who believe that salvation cannot be lost claim that once saved, Jesus takes care of the rest. They claim that Jesus won't let the saved backslide or lose faith. They say the believer's free (to believe or disbelieve) will no longer count; Jesus just won't let you leave him even if you want to. Is this what the scriptures actually say?

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Fear of losing salvation...

      IMO, both sides of this argument miss the mark.
      ....One side ignores sanctification as an 'ongoing' process.
      ....One side ignores the threat of "I never knew you" found in Matthew 7:23
      While both sides choose to ignore that Jesus is the only one who has earned the seat to judge salvation upon a soul or not.

      For me, initially my belief in Jesus and my confessing baptism into Him does seal my salvation as far as me being plucked out of His hands is concerned.

      Then afterward, the renewing/cleansing of my mind is a life-long process that transforms me overtime into the image of Christ Jesus, through my life-lived obedience to Christ Jesus's commands.
      sanctification

      If the fruit of the Spirit remains in me to the end of my days here on fallen Earth, or until He returns, then Jesus will not deny knowing me before His Father as His blameless bride.
      I never knew you


      So again IMO,
      In the end, both sides of this argument miss the mark and there by further divide the body of Christ (His bride):
      It is up to Jesus alone, not up to pastors, priest, teachers, preachers nor the church, and definitely not up to a calvinist nor an armenian, but totally 100% up to Jesus the Christ.
      ref:Eph 5:25-27
      Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, so that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish.
      Don't seek too much knowledge. You just may be putting more weight on your shoulders than you're able to bare.
      Let God be the one to decide how quickly you grow

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Fear of losing salvation...

        Not-guilty and blameless = two totally different things !


        I am guilty of sin, but Jesus's work finished on the cross gives me a graceful merciful opportunity, an opportunity to become blameless (although still guilty).

        That opportunity does not just involve one initial decision to follow and obey Jesus Christ.
        It involves a life time of daily, even hourly decisions to keep following Him obediently.
        Don't seek too much knowledge. You just may be putting more weight on your shoulders than you're able to bare.
        Let God be the one to decide how quickly you grow

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Fear of losing salvation...

          Originally posted by Jacob's Ladder View Post
          IMO, both sides of this argument miss the mark.
          ....One side ignores sanctification as an 'ongoing' process.
          ....One side ignores the threat of "I never knew you" found in Matthew 7:23
          While both sides choose to ignore that Jesus is the only one who has earned the seat to judge salvation upon a soul or not.

          For me, initially my belief in Jesus and my confessing baptism into Him does seal my salvation as far as me being plucked out of His hands is concerned.

          Then afterward, the renewing/cleansing of my mind is a life-long process that transforms me overtime into the image of Christ Jesus, through my life-lived obedience to Christ Jesus's commands.
          sanctification

          If the fruit of the Spirit remains in me to the end of my days here on fallen Earth, or until He returns, then Jesus will not deny knowing me before His Father as His blameless bride.
          I never knew you


          So again IMO,
          In the end, both sides of this argument miss the mark and there by further divide the body of Christ (His bride):
          It is up to Jesus alone, not up to pastors, priest, teachers, preachers nor the church, and definitely not up to a calvinist nor an armenian, but totally 100% up to Jesus the Christ.
          ref:Eph 5:25-27
          Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, so that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish.
          You are the one who has completely missed the point. BTW, you mentioned Matt 7:23 those that would be told, "I never knew you" but didn't tell us where you believe they fit in? Are they who believe but lose their salvation or what, what would make them be rejected?

          If your view is to be believed, the believer literally has no part to play in whether he is saved or not. Jesus does all; he gives him the faith to believe in him and goes on to save and cuddles him throughout his mortal existences. His free will to disobey, backslide or even lose faith in God after being saved is taken away from him.

          If this is not a junk doctrine, I don't know what it is.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Fear of losing salvation...

            Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
            you mentioned Matt 7:23 those that would be told, "I never knew you" but didn't tell us where you believe they fit in? Are they who believe but lose their salvation or what, what would make them be rejected?
            First, I did not say anything about "losing" salvation, that is just only your presumption upon me here.

            To try an answer your question:
            It is not my place to say why or whether a person (any person) is save, was saved or will be saved.
            That seat of judgment was exclusively earned by Christ Jesus on the cross, no one else is worthy in Heaven nor below to make any of those judgement upon anyone (including ourselves).

            Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
            If your view is to be believed, the believer literally has no part to play in whether he is saved or not. Jesus does all; he gives him the faith to believe in him and goes on to save and cuddles him throughout his mortal existences. His free will to disobey, backslide or even lose faith in God after being saved is taken away from him.
            Again, either your presumption put upon my words, or your misunderstanding via the curse of babble.
            Don't seek too much knowledge. You just may be putting more weight on your shoulders than you're able to bare.
            Let God be the one to decide how quickly you grow

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Fear of losing salvation...

              First, I did not say anything about "losing" salvation, that is just only your presumption upon me here.

              To try an answer your question:
              It is not my place to say why or whether a person (any person) is save, was saved or will be saved.
              That seat of judgment was exclusively earned by Christ Jesus on the cross, no one else is worthy in Heaven nor below to make any of those judgement upon anyone (including ourselves).
              While I understand what you are getting at , I think you may be going a tad far.

              1. By their fruits you will know them.
              2. These things are written that you may KNOW you have eternal life.

              When someone is living in sin as a lifestyle, they are lost. It is safe biblically to make that assumption. It's also safe, and expected, to know that we are saved. How else can we have confidence in our calling ?

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Fear of losing salvation...

                There are four types of people. Remember Christ's parable about the sower scattering seed that went on the path, the rocky ground, the thorns, and the good soil.

                Those that are of the good soil cannot lose their salvation simply because they are the true believers in Christ and have already been granted eternal life from Him.

                Those that fell on the rocky ground are all those that immediately receive the word with joy but because they have no root they quickly fall away when trouble comes to them.

                That is the problem with so many since then to even today. You could never tell the difference when you see someone like this at first. Those of rocky ground were never saved to begin with even though it surely appeared so. Even if that person was to die before falling away, God knows what type of soil they are.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Fear of losing salvation...

                  Originally posted by Pbminimum View Post
                  While I understand what you are getting at , I think you may be going a tad far.

                  1. By their fruits you will know them.
                  2. These things are written that you may KNOW you have eternal life.

                  When someone is living in sin as a lifestyle, they are lost. It is safe biblically to make that assumption. It's also safe, and expected, to know that we are saved. How else can we have confidence in our calling ?
                  I know that God's Holy Spirit will personally/privately confirm to us individually when we are His child, in many different ways too (if we will or can recognize it when He does).
                  But, the Spirit was sent to us to guide, remind, and comfort us corporately in the church and or individually.
                  That Spirit was not sent to us to enable us to judge our fellows salvation, nor our own salvation.
                  Just as in Matt 7:23 those folks supposed that they judged themselves saved too, but were not.

                  As for judging another's salvation by their fruit, no (I wont anyway, I can't)
                  Although a BIG yes as for fruit judging being really the only way to judge whether the behaviors of our fellows are motivated by another spirit or motivated by the Spirit.
                  But again, that is not judging their salvation it is judging the spirit that they are motivated by or operating under at any point in time, seeing that our salvation is not at any point in time but only judged on the ONE day of judgment, and only judged by Christ at His throne.

                  Has that clarified my position here, or do you still see some shady areas in what I've shared.
                  BTW, thank you for the opportunity to make those clarifications.
                  I'm not to efficient yet at making presentations, but I do know what I believe and stand on, and why too.
                  Don't seek too much knowledge. You just may be putting more weight on your shoulders than you're able to bare.
                  Let God be the one to decide how quickly you grow

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Fear of losing salvation...

                    Originally posted by Slug1 View Post
                    For those who believe that once saved, always saved... have you ever feared for the salvation of others who you know, have believed unto Christ?

                    If not... why does Paul?

                    Or let me ask it this way, if it is believed that Paul is not touching on salvation with this fear... why the fear at all, if salvation is secure and there in no need for this warning/fear


                    2 Corinthians 11: 1 I hope you will put up with a little more of my foolishness. Please bear with me. 2 For I am jealous for you with the jealousy of God himself. I promised you as a pure bride to one husband—Christ. 3 But I fear that somehow your pure and undivided devotion to Christ will be corrupted, just as Eve was deceived by the cunning ways of the serpent. 4 You happily put up with whatever anyone tells you, even if they preach a different Jesus than the one we preach, or a different kind of Spirit than the one you received, or a different kind of gospel than the one you believed. 5 But I don’t consider myself inferior in any way to these “super apostles” who teach such things. 6 I may be unskilled as a speaker, but I’m not lacking in knowledge. We have made this clear to you in every possible way.

                    7 Was I wrong when I humbled myself and honored you by preaching God’s Good News to you without expecting anything in return? 8 I “robbed” other churches by accepting their contributions so I could serve you at no cost. 9 And when I was with you and didn’t have enough to live on, I did not become a financial burden to anyone. For the brothers who came from Macedonia brought me all that I needed. I have never been a burden to you, and I never will be. 10 As surely as the truth of Christ is in me, no one in all of Greece will ever stop me from boasting about this. 11 Why? Because I don’t love you? God knows that I do.

                    12 But I will continue doing what I have always done. This will undercut those who are looking for an opportunity to boast that their work is just like ours. 13 These people are false apostles. They are deceitful workers who disguise themselves as apostles of Christ. 14 But I am not surprised! Even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. 15 So it is no wonder that his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. In the end they will get the punishment their wicked deeds deserve.
                    The debate over losing one's salvation or not is fueled by both Calvin and Arminius still being under the influence of Roman doctrine. That is, the Reformation concentrated of HOW one is saved - by faith (which is for free) and works (mainly by buying indulgences from the Roman Church). The battle was hot and heavy, and these esteemed pioneers shed their blood for the cause. The way to heaven was fraught with obstacles. And that's just it. Salvation is NOT going to heaven when you die. Salvation is when a man is returned to to the status that God originally intended with Adam.

                    In Genesis 1:26-28 man's purpose was to (1) be in God's image and likeness, and (2) bring God's rule to earth and its environs of sea and sky. God has never given up on this plan, and the Councils of the Almighty are immutable. So we read in Romans 8:28-31;

                    28 "And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
                    29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
                    30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
                    31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?"


                    To accomplish this plan, God also did not change tactics. The original plan foresaw Adam eating from the Tree of Life to accomplish God's plan. But sin came in and because blood must be shed for sin and sins, the Tree of Life is replaced by the Lamb - which was killed and then eaten in its entirety. And those who eat Christ receive ETERNAL LIFE (Jn.6:54). But sin, and subsequent sins, did their deadly work and man was thoroughly defiled and polluted. Since man is made of three parts, and each needs restoration, salvation for the man is in THREE AVENUES.
                    1. His spirit must undergo a New Birth (Jn.3:6)
                    2. His soul, his thoughts, feelings and decisions, must undergo a radical transformation process to make the man stop focusing on his flesh and focus on the Holy Spirit in his spirit
                    3. His body is beyond repair, so he must die, and/or be changed with new body not from the womb

                    1. Now, the Holy Spirit, when He comes to dwell in a human spirit, is the Almighty and Him and His ETERNAL LIFE just cannot be moved. To propose that there is a force in the universe that can overcome God borders on blasphemy. It strips the ALL-mighty of being ALL mighty. And the LIFE in the human spirit of a born again man or woman is just that - ETERNAL. It cannot be extinguished. And since this eternal life is had by faith, and Christ is both AUTHOR and FINISHER of our faith (Heb.12:2), there is no creature or force that can remove it.
                    2. The body of a Christian is to resurrected and/or changed when Christ comes. He/she has no say in the matter. Christ has promised that He will build His Church and Hades, the place of the dead, will not prevail. Christ is "BECOME" the life-giving Spirit" (1st Cor.15:45) and death and Hades are powerless against Him. He also possesses the "keys" to Hades (Rev.1.18), so at His discretion He may extract anybody from the dead at any time. There is no creature or force that stop, or delay Him in resurrecting the bodies of men when He wants to.
                    3. The SOUL of man is the problem. It is here that the debate must rage. And the astute student of scripture will soon realize that it is here that a case for LOSS OF SALVATION can be made. Why? Because of TWO things.
                    (1) The man is commanded that he must cooperate in this process. He must (i) eat the Word to grow (1st Pet.2:2), (ii) he must look upon Christ continually to be transformed (2nd Cor.3:18), (iii) he must guard his thoughts at all times (Rom.12:2), (iv) he must deny his desires when they clash with those of the Holy Spirit (Matt.16:24) and even hate things that would call for his loyalty (Lk.14:26), and (v) he must put to death, with malice, the yearnings of his fallen flesh (Matt:16:24; Gal.5.24). That is, the man must be a co-worker of the Holy Spirit in this matter. And men being what they are, are VERY SUSCEPTIBLE to be lazy, slothful and tired of denying themselves.
                    (2) God has set a TIME-LIMIT for this transformation of the soul. At the return of Jesus Christ to set up His Kingdom on earth, ALL Christians must face a Judgment Seat for their works DONE AFTER REBIRTH (Rom.14:10; 2nd Cor.5:10). And ALL INDICATIONS of scripture reveal that if a Christian is found NOT to have been transformed he/she WILL SUFFER A LOSS. Besides the many Parables on the Lord's servants, Galatians 5:21 and Ephesians 5:5 PROMISE LOSS to the untamed and un-transformed Christian. And this brings us to the crux of the "Once saved-always-saved" debate. WHAT IS THE LOSS! Is it one's salvation?

                    No! In God's magnificent knowledge of His creature, He knew that men would be hard-pressed to cooperate in this TRANSFORMATION process. Both Romans Chapter 7 and Galatians 5:17 show that the flesh is a very powerful force in the fallen human. That is why it is to be treated without mercy. It is to be put on the symbolic cross "DAILY". And God, in His wisdom, SETS FORTH A REWARD FOR THIS EFFORT BY THE MAN. The REWARD for a man who follows Christ, denies himself and crucifies his flesh daily, IS TO BE REWARDED BY (I) BEING A CO-KING WITH CHRIST IN THE FIRST 1,000 YEARS OF HIS KINGDOM ON EARTH, AND (II) BEING ALLOWED INTO THE WEDDING FEAST MADE FOR JESUS CHRIST WHEN HE COMES.

                    If I enter into all the arguments for this, my posting will exceed a small book, so let me just say that THE LOSS for a wayward, slothful, habitually sinful Christian is NOT THE LOSS OF ETERNAL LIFE. It is that he/she will be cut out of the Millennial Kingdom's activities IN DISGRACE. They will be resurrected when Jesus Comes. They will see the glorious Kingdom of Christ. But they will be cut out of all its activities and privileges, and be cut out the the presence of Christ FOR 1,000 YEARS. During this 1,000 years, the will be FORCED by grueling discipline and chastisement into the image of Christ. They will be a laughing stock in front of the nations who enjoy the Kingdom. The will be personally rebuked and refused by our Lord Jesus (Matt.7:21:23).

                    THIS IS WHAT IS LOST if one is a slothful, backsliding, lukewarm Christian.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Fear of losing salvation...

                      Originally posted by Ri Chasu View Post
                      There are four types of people. Remember Christ's parable about the sower scattering seed that went on the path, the rocky ground, the thorns, and the good soil.

                      Those that are of the good soil cannot lose their salvation simply because they are the true believers in Christ and have already been granted eternal life from Him.

                      Those that fell on the rocky ground are all those that immediately receive the word with joy but because they have no root they quickly fall away when trouble comes to them.

                      That is the problem with so many since then to even today. You could never tell the difference when you see someone like this at first. Those of rocky ground were never saved to begin with even though it surely appeared so. Even if that person was to die before falling away, God knows what type of soil they are.
                      Amen !
                      Don't seek too much knowledge. You just may be putting more weight on your shoulders than you're able to bare.
                      Let God be the one to decide how quickly you grow

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Fear of losing salvation...

                        I prefer to hit 2 birds with one stone - live for Christ. Why risk dancing on the fence? I believe there are good points to both sides of the conversation. And when I think about family and friends who have not accepted the Lord, I cast my care into His hands (1 Peter 5:7). I can trust that He will do all that He can so that they have the chance to accept or reject Christ. What they choose is ultimately up to them. I simply continually pray that laborers cross their path with the Gospel.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Fear of losing salvation...

                          Originally posted by Jacob's Ladder View Post
                          IMO, both sides of this argument miss the mark.
                          In the end, both sides of this argument miss the mark and there by further divide the body of Christ (His bride):
                          It is up to Jesus alone, not up to pastors, priest, teachers, preachers nor the church, and definitely not up to a calvinist nor an armenian, but totally 100% up to Jesus the Christ.
                          While I read all your post, here is/are your main points. If both side miss the mark... what then is the reason Paul had a "fear?"

                          Yes, sanctification is a process, but justification is not a process. It is done in a person's life the MOMENT they believe unto Christ and if this justification (alone) takes a person to salvation with NO faltering, then WHY does Paul... fear for those who are members of the Body?

                          ref:Eph 5:25-27
                          Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, so that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish.
                          Good choice of scripture... yet Paul is fearful that this will not happen for those in the Body, if they are "led" away by false teachers

                          So I ask... if once saved, always saved... WHY does Paul fear?

                          And... do those who believe in once saved, always saved and one of their brethren begin to be led away into false teaching... do they "fear" for their brethren because the once saved always saved means... there IS NOTHING to worry about?
                          Slug1--out

                          ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

                          ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

                          ~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~


                          ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~


                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Fear of losing salvation...

                            First I want to make clear that I once was an adamant NOSAS servant of Jesus Christ, but then two days after I finally gave the OSAS position a fair study, I began to despise both opposing sides of that argument.
                            But only because now (after that well-over-due study) I see both sides of the argument as wrong, and also see those arguments as only further dividing the body of Christ, His bride.

                            When I say wrong, what I mean is:
                            One side ignores sanctification as an ongoing process.
                            and
                            One side ignores the threat of "I never knew you" found in Matthew 7:23

                            While both sides actually choose to ignore that Christ Jesus is the only one who has earned the right to sit upon the judgment-seat to judge salvation upon all souls.
                            So, I wanted to get that out of the way first off.
                            I am no longer in neither camp OSAO nor NOSAS, and never will be again if it is left up to me.

                            Originally posted by Slug1 View Post
                            If both side miss the mark... what then is the reason Paul had a "fear?"
                            I want to hold back my response to this point until I try to address your other points made in your reply.

                            Originally posted by Slug1 View Post
                            but justification is not a process. It is done in a person's life the MOMENT they believe unto Christ and if this justification (alone) takes a person to salvation with NO faltering, then WHY does Paul... fear
                            I did mentioned justification earlier in my OP here "For me, initially my belief in Jesus and my confessing baptism into Him does seal my salvation as far as me being plucked out of His hands is concerned."
                            But, I cannot see where I presented justification there as taking a person to salvation with NO faltering.

                            At the moment, I can only think of two things that Justification does;
                            One, it keeps a true-believer in the hands of Christ (cannot be snatched out of His hands)
                            And two, it gives us as individuals (no priest required) it gives us an unobstructed path to our Father's throne room anytime we choose to visit, praise, or petition Him in prayer there.

                            Originally posted by Slug1 View Post
                            Good choice of scripture... yet Paul is fearful that this will not happen for those in the Body, if they are "led" away by false teachers
                            Well when we are led away, we are not led away by false teachers, nor led away by the devil or his demons; we are led away by our own lust/appetites (they had itchy-ears for those words of that false teacher, or words of the the devil or his demons.) ref:James 1:13-14 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God,” for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one. But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire.

                            Which to me means that if I am still being led away by my own appetites, then I was never living for Jesus in the first place.
                            What I mean is, if I have itchy-ears for false doctrines, then I was never justified, nor being sanctified, nor destined to be saved to begin with.

                            Originally posted by Slug1 View Post
                            So I ask... if once saved, always saved... WHY does Paul fear?
                            There are two words in our NT's original language that are translated as fear.
                            phobeō / φοβέω-strong's call#G5399
                            Which is the word used in the scripture that you quoted from 2 Corinthians ch 11.
                            and
                            Phobos / φόβος-strong's call#G5401
                            Which ironically happens to be the root word of the previous word above "phobeō"

                            There is no doubt that the word used in 2 Corinthians ch 11 "phobeō" could mean fear, but it has to mean a mild fear as in; alarm, shocked or startled by strange sights or occurrences, or caught up in amazement.
                            .....Where as the latter word "phobeō" it can only mean fear, dread, terror or rarely reverence.

                            So for more that one reason, I suggest that if Paul wanted to exclusively convey fear as the meaning of his word there, he would have used Phobos, but he didn't use it there. What word he used was the word phobeō, which IMO probably was used by him to convey amazement or shock.
                            Shocked that some were so quickly falling away from the Truth that he taught them when he established that Corinthian church.



                            Offhand Slug1, I too am shocked/amazed at, shocked least once a month by more than a few of my fellows at my local church, sometimes shocked more often than that.
                            Shocked/amazed at how quickly some of us there totally ignore or willfully forget to practice this week what we had just learned there the previous week.
                            Don't seek too much knowledge. You just may be putting more weight on your shoulders than you're able to bare.
                            Let God be the one to decide how quickly you grow

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                            • #15
                              Re: Fear of losing salvation...

                              Originally posted by Jacob's Ladder View Post
                              Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
                              So I ask... if once saved, always saved... WHY does Paul fear?
                              There are two words in our NT's original language that are translated as fear.
                              phobeō / φοβέω-strong's call#G5399
                              Which is the word used in the scripture that you quoted from 2 Corinthians ch 11.
                              and
                              Phobos / φόβος-strong's call#G5401
                              Which ironically happens to be the root word of the previous word above "phobeō"

                              There is no doubt that the word used in 2 Corinthians ch 11 "phobeō" could mean fear, but it has to mean a mild fear as in; alarm, shocked or startled by strange sights or occurrences, or caught up in amazement.
                              .....Where as the latter word "phobeō" it can only mean fear, dread, terror or rarely reverence.

                              So for more that one reason, I suggest that if Paul wanted to exclusively convey fear as the meaning of his word there, he would have used Phobos, but he didn't use it there. What word he used was the word phobeō, which IMO probably was used by him to convey amazement or shock.
                              Shocked that some were so quickly falling away from the Truth that he taught them when he established that Corinthian church.



                              Offhand Slug1, I too am shocked/amazed at, shocked least once a month by more than a few of my fellows at my local church, sometimes shocked more often than that.
                              Shocked/amazed at how quickly some of us there totally ignore or willfully forget to practice this week what we had just learned there the previous week.
                              I forgot to add:
                              The number one command in our bible "fear not" is written within in it's book(s) 400 times.
                              And is the main reason that I submit to you that Paul meant he was amazed or shocked, rather than in fear in 2 Corinthians ch 11.
                              Don't seek too much knowledge. You just may be putting more weight on your shoulders than you're able to bare.
                              Let God be the one to decide how quickly you grow

                              Comment

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