is sin just a "Salvation" problem?

[randyk]

We know that sin hurt the 1st Man and Woman. It caused them to suffer in their relationship with God. And it caused them to have to die. Furthermore, it caused them to suffer in labor and in childbirth.

We know that redemption exists with God, and that despite all of these problems with sin, there can be forgiveness and eternal restoration. We call this "Eternal Salvation."

But is the problem of sin only about Eternal Salvation? I know we can't do much about suffering in labor and in child birth. And I know we can't completely remove the sin nature that exists in our "flesh," as Paul described it.

But if God gave Man the ability to do right, surely this still is the reality despite our sin nature? Surely, even though we have a compulsion to rebel against God, we are still able to do right?

I would suggest that when Paul and the authors of the NT warned the Church about sin they were not just concerned about our having Eternal Life. No, the problem with sin is that it always drives us away from obedience to God, and thus disturbs the purposes of God.

So sin is an ongoing problem that goes beyond the issue of our own Eternal Salvation, in my view. It is more a matter of letting God's word continue to prevail in our choices so that God's will is done every day, and not just in the eternal future.

What we do in obedience today does not really save the people who obey, if they are already "Saved" Christians. What it really does is affect other people, involving both their obedience and their Salvation.

We are not just to avoid sin to get Saved. More, we are to avoid sin so that we *do* God's will, and allow His word to prevail in our lives, as well as in the world. God gets glory from the demonstration of His word in our lives, so that His Presence is demonstrated in acts of good men.

Salvation is really about the demonstration of God's character in human works. And it is the establishment of that righteousness on an eternal basis. But it begins with the exposure of the problems of sin, whether it affects our own Salvation or not.

[Jacob's Ladder]

Re: is sin just a "Salvation" problem?

Hi Randy,
I believe that if we constantly remind ourselves moment by moment, remind ourselves of who we are in Christ, and also remind ourselves in those same moments about 'all' of what He accomplished on the cross for us
ie: it defeated the sting of death, it breaks curse(s) self-inflicted or otherwise, it opens up the only opportunity to restore our relationship with our Creator, and it most importantly disarmed satan and his demons.
.....Constantly keeping those things in our minds moment to moment enables us to walk sinless in those moments, now today and tomorrow.
IMO, not knowing, forgetting or ignoring those Truth's are where sin is the salvation problem.
Sin can still alienate/oppress us from those Truths, it puts us in bondage away from those Truths.

But, sin is also a problem in other area's of God's kingdom too, it's not just a salvation problem:
Man was created to please God, to praise His name to the entirety of the rest of His creation.
Created to reflect God's love-attributes, purity and productivity to the entirety of the rest of God's creation.
Sin totally derails or at least impedes those purpose(s) for which man was created.
So sin is a function/created-purpose problem too, we cannot function as we were created to because of sin.

Sin also is a relationship problem between man and God, but you already covered that in the brief to your question.



Also:
Man is not the only creature who has to deal with sin, there is sin apart from man, as demonstrated by the fallen angels. But no salvation remedy is made available for that problem.
What I mean is, sin and salvation are not always related to one another in God's plan for His creation(s).

[dailyprayerwarrior]

Re: is sin just a "Salvation" problem?

Great post. Yes I agree that we should continually keep our eyes on Jesus. As thoughts to disobey the Lord hit us we should resist them, cast them down, and continue to obey the Lord by His grace! Easier said than done but through Christ all things are possible.

[Noeb]

Re: is sin just a "Salvation" problem?

We know that sin hurt the 1st Man and Woman. It caused them to suffer in their relationship with God. And it caused them to have to die. Furthermore, it caused them to suffer in labor and in childbirth.

We know that redemption exists with God, and that despite all of these problems with sin, there can be forgiveness and eternal restoration. We call this "Eternal Salvation."

But is the problem of sin only about Eternal Salvation? I know we can't do much about suffering in labor and in child birth. And I know we can't completely remove the sin nature that exists in our "flesh," as Paul described it.

But if God gave Man the ability to do right, surely this still is the reality despite our sin nature? Surely, even though we have a compulsion to rebel against God, we are still able to do right?

I would suggest that when Paul and the authors of the NT warned the Church about sin they were not just concerned about our having Eternal Life. No, the problem with sin is that it always drives us away from obedience to God, and thus disturbs the purposes of God.

Sin nature? What sin nature? You describe the same for Adam, Eve, and us, and think we are different? No we are not. You just showed yourself sin nature is false doctrine.

So sin is an ongoing problem that goes beyond the issue of our own Eternal Salvation, in my view. It is more a matter of letting God's word continue to prevail in our choices so that God's will is done every day, and not just in the eternal future.

What we do in obedience today does not really save the people who obey, if they are already "Saved" Christians. What it really does is affect other people, involving both their obedience and their Salvation.

We are not just to avoid sin to get Saved. More, we are to avoid sin so that we *do* God's will, and allow His word to prevail in our lives, as well as in the world. God gets glory from the demonstration of His word in our lives, so that His Presence is demonstrated in acts of good men.

Salvation is really about the demonstration of God's character in human works. And it is the establishment of that righteousness on an eternal basis. But it begins with the exposure of the problems of sin, whether it affects our own Salvation or not.

Again, Adam and Eve should have allowed God's word continue to prevail in their lives. Again, not mush has changed.

[randyk]

Re: is sin just a "Salvation" problem?

Hi Randy,
I believe that if we constantly remind ourselves moment by moment, remind ourselves of who we are in Christ, and also remind ourselves in those same moments about 'all' of what He accomplished on the cross for us
ie: it defeated the sting of death, it breaks curse(s) self-inflicted or otherwise, it opens up the only opportunity to restore our relationship with our Creator, and it most importantly disarmed satan and his demons.
.....Constantly keeping those things in our minds moment to moment enables us to walk sinless in those moments, now today and tomorrow.
IMO, not knowing, forgetting or ignoring those Truth's are where sin is the salvation problem.
Sin can still alienate/oppress us from those Truths, it puts us in bondage away from those Truths.

But, sin is also a problem in other area's of God's kingdom too, it's not just a salvation problem:
Man was created to please God, to praise His name to the entirety of the rest of His creation.
Created to reflect God's love-attributes, purity and productivity to the entirety of the rest of God's creation.
Sin totally derails or at least impedes those purpose(s) for which man was created.
So sin is a function/created-purpose problem too, we cannot function as we were created to because of sin.

Sin also is a relationship problem between man and God, but you already covered that in the brief to your question.



Also:
Man is not the only creature who has to deal with sin, there is sin apart from man, as demonstrated by the fallen angels. But no salvation remedy is made available for that problem.
What I mean is, sin and salvation are not always related to one another in God's plan for His creation(s).

I generally agree with your comments here. I'm not sure that Christians have to focus on Christ to "stay saved," but Christians are certainly called to "set our minds on things above." This will prove our Salvation to ourselves and to others, in case there is any doubt.

Yes, there is sin outside of Mankind, namely among the angels. And I do find it a mystery that Man can be redeemed, whereas angels cannot. That may be why angels find events on earth interesting to them--at least I think they do?

[randyk]

Re: is sin just a "Salvation" problem?

Great post. Yes I agree that we should continually keep our eyes on Jesus. As thoughts to disobey the Lord hit us we should resist them, cast them down, and continue to obey the Lord by His grace! Easier said than done but through Christ all things are possible.

Amen. I find that many of us believers fall into a variety of sins in our lifetimes, and feel that we've dug a deep pit for ourselves. Whether we've been faithful all our lives or have a spotty record, I agree that the thing to do is to keep our minds fixed on the things that are above, where Christ is seated in heaven. That reminds us of our position with him, that we are Saved, and have been given an eternal destiny with him. His love and grace surpasses anything we may have done! His love triumphs over our own failures, and never stops resuscitating us from our premature graves!

[randyk]

Re: is sin just a "Salvation" problem?

Sin nature? What sin nature? You describe the same for Adam, Eve, and us, and think we are different? No we are not. You just showed yourself sin nature is false doctrine.

Again, Adam and Eve should have allowed God's word continue to prevail in their lives. Again, not mush has changed.

Yes, I've heard you deny the sin nature in other threads--I find that rather bizarre. I find it even stranger that you put the onus on us who believe in a widely-accepted doctrine, instead of trying to explain what is a highly unusual doctrine among "believers?" I know of no Christian other than you who refuses to believe in a "sin nature." It is every day apparent to me that I have a sin nature. Why you don't see that in yourself is amazing to me!

[Jacob's Ladder]

Re: is sin just a "Salvation" problem?

I generally agree with your comments here. I'm not sure that Christians have to focus on Christ to "stay saved," but Christians are certainly called to "set our minds on things above." This will prove our Salvation to ourselves and to others, in case there is any doubt.

Hi again Randy,
One thing you say in your reply troubles me deeply.
Would you be willing to clarify to me what you mean there where I have bold colored in my quote of you ?
I think it is worthy of a very, very serious discussion.

[Trivalee]

Re: is sin just a "Salvation" problem?

Yes, I've heard you deny the sin nature in other threads--I find that rather bizarre. I find it even stranger that you put the onus on us who believe in a widely-accepted doctrine, instead of trying to explain what is a highly unusual doctrine among "believers?" I know of no Christian other than you who refuses to believe in a "sin nature." It is every day apparent to me that I have a sin nature. Why you don't see that in yourself is amazing to me!

I completely agree that 'sin nature' is a genuine doctrinal challenge faced by every saved Christian. Here is what Paul said about it:

Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.

17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

Here we have Apostle Paul, saved, sanctified and heaven-bound declaring that:

1. Verse 14 - as one who is carnal, that he is sold under sin despite the fact he was righteous.
2. V-17 & 23 - because of the constant struggle between his spirit and his flesh (sin nature) he found it hard to do the right thing his spirit wills him to. His flesh (inherent sin) often compels him to do what doesn't want to.
3. V-18 - he declares that there is, "no good thing in his flesh".
4. V-21-he says when he wants to do good, evil (sin) is still present with him.

In conclusion, despite being saved, sin nature remains an inherent part of carnal life. Perhaps it explains why Isaiah 64:6 says that even in our righteousness, we are still like a filthy rag before God.

[Noeb]

Re: is sin just a "Salvation" problem?

Yes, I've heard you deny the sin nature in other threads--I find that rather bizarre. I find it even stranger that you put the onus on us who believe in a widely-accepted doctrine, instead of trying to explain what is a highly unusual doctrine among "believers?" I know of no Christian other than you who refuses to believe in a "sin nature." It is every day apparent to me that I have a sin nature. Why you don't see that in yourself is amazing to me!

That tactic doesn't work. No sin nature is just as widely accepted when you're not in a bubble. Adam and Even didn't have a sin nature, had no trouble sinning, and a change in nature cannot be found in scripture.

[Noeb]

Re: is sin just a "Salvation" problem?

Here we have Apostle Paul, saved, sanctified and heaven-bound declaring that:

Which is it then? Is he saved, sanctified and heaven-bound or carnal, sold by the first sin, no good in him, evil?

1. Verse 14 - as one who is carnal, that he is sold under sin despite the fact he was righteous.
2. V-17 & 23 - because of the constant struggle between his spirit and his flesh (sin nature) he found it hard to do the right thing his spirit wills him to. His flesh (inherent sin) often compels him to do what doesn't want to.
3. V-18 - he declares that there is, "no good thing in his flesh".
4. V-21-he says when he wants to do good, evil (sin) is still present with him.

The word for flesh still means flesh, not sin nature. We should read a doctrine into a passage. This passage describes the condition of man before Jesus, which is noted as the solution a few verses down.

In conclusion, despite being saved, sin nature remains an inherent part of carnal life.

So since the only difference in you is the addition of the Spirit, not having the Spirit is the definition of sin nature?

Perhaps it explains why Isaiah 64:6 says that even in our righteousness, we are still like a filthy rag before God.

Yeah, go back and read that in context. They were not righteous at all. This verse should never be applied to a Christian.

[Noeb]

Re: is sin just a "Salvation" problem?

We should read a doctrine into a passage.

We should NOT read a doctrine into a passage.

[Jacob's Ladder]

Re: is sin just a "Salvation" problem?

@ the current discussion over "sin nature"
Sin nature is in our bibles, it's on almost every one of it's pages of each of it's books, OT and NT.

Semantics is a game, a game not worth playing. Proverbs 26:4

[Noeb]

Re: is sin just a "Salvation" problem?

@ the current discussion over "sin nature"
Sin nature is in our bibles, it's on almost every one of it's pages of each of it's books, OT and NT.

Semantics is a game, a game not worth playing. Proverbs 26:5

If that were true the Church from the first century til now would not be split on the issue.

[Noeb]

Re: is sin just a "Salvation" problem?

I do not think we should continue to derail randyk's thread, unless he wants to. I certainly don't have the time to repeat my self. There are plenty of extensive threads on it.