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is sin just a "Salvation" problem?

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  • #16
    Re: is sin just a "Salvation" problem?

    Originally posted by Noeb View Post
    If that were true the Church from the first century til now would not be split on the issue.
    No, the original letters sent to churches, and the personal gospel accounts and histories that have been translated into our NT were all written in languages that were well-known(not archaic) to the intended readers.

    So, no it was not a problem back then.
    It's only a problem now via translations.
    Then after those translations, it is sometimes further exploited by folks who cannot (or possibly intentionally will not) rightly divide the words found within.
    Don't seek too much knowledge. You just may be putting more weight on your shoulders than you're able to bare.
    Let God be the one to decide how quickly you grow

    Comment


    • #17
      Re: is sin just a "Salvation" problem?

      You obviously haven't clue.

      Comment


      • #18
        Re: is sin just a "Salvation" problem?

        Originally posted by Noeb View Post
        That tactic doesn't work. No sin nature is just as widely accepted when you're not in a bubble. Adam and Even didn't have a sin nature, had no trouble sinning, and a change in nature cannot be found in scripture.
        I'm not sure what you're complaining about? This has nothing to do with living in a bubble.

        Obviously, the sin nature would be accepted outside of a bubble because it is the general experience of mankind, whether they accept something called "sin" or not. We do not have to trade notes inside a bubble to discover that we are compelled to do wrong in the eyes of justice.

        We all have compulsions to act against the righteousness of God. If we accept something called "sin," we recognize that our compulsion is to not obey the word of God.

        It doesn't matter that Adam and Eve were born without a sin nature. What contaminated them was disobeying God in the matter of partaking of the fruit of the tree of knowledge. That did change them, whether you call it a "change in nature" or not.

        Most Christians call this "change" the development of a "sin nature." Why you don't I can't fathom.

        Perhaps you think that only Adam and Eve changed their own natures by their disobedience? Perhaps you think every individual since Adam and Eve must sin in order to develop his or her own sin nature?

        I believe we were all conceived in sin. Just like DNA children are born with a sin inheritance in which we compulsively disobey our conscience. This is for me a clear indication that all men were born in sin.

        Incidentally, I don't really care if this thread digresses some. Sometimes our conclusions are drawn from our theology. And that also has to be addressed.

        Comment


        • #19
          Re: is sin just a "Salvation" problem?

          Originally posted by Jacob's Ladder View Post
          Hi again Randy,
          One thing you say in your reply troubles me deeply.
          Would you be willing to clarify to me what you mean there where I have bold colored in my quote of you ?
          I think it is worthy of a very, very serious discussion.
          Well, I can see why you're concerned. I'm not advocating for taking our minds off of Christ once we are Saved. No, I'm just saying that Salvation is not a continual act of repeating religious works. We may come to Christ for Salvation through prayer, and through repentance. But we don't re-secure our Salvation every time we pray and every time we repent.

          We may sin as Christians, and we may repent as Christians. We don't become non-Christians every time we sin, and then have to come to Christ again for Salvation. That's what I'm referring to.

          Certainly we should always keep our minds on things above. But obviously, we won't always do that. That simply does not take away our Salvation. It just causes us to lose connection momentarily, so that we may sort of "fall asleep" spiritually. The Lord will remind us, at some point, that we need to reestablish our obedience and our gaze on Christ.

          If we could always keep our minds on things above Paul would not have needed to tell us to do that. But the very fact that we do lose our attention to this he finds it necessary to remind us.

          When we do lose our spiritual attention span, we are not losing our Salvation. But if we would prove that we were Saved in the 1st place we need to prove it by demonstrating that we really have a new life inside us by consistently portraying Christ in our lives.

          Those who just reflect Christ here and there, time and again, are not showing they have a new nature. They are just showing they know what's right, and aren't really converting fully. True Salvation is having a new nature, which proves itself by regular obedience to the Lord.

          Comment


          • #20
            Re: is sin just a "Salvation" problem?

            Originally posted by randyk View Post
            I'm not sure what you're complaining about? This has nothing to do with living in a bubble.
            Wasn't complaining, just stating the facts. You act like the vast majority of Christians believe in original sin/sin nature based on your experience, so it has everything to do with your bubble.


            Originally posted by randyk View Post
            Obviously, the sin nature would be accepted outside of a bubble because it is the general experience of mankind
            Sin is the experience. Our nature is just one aspect.


            Originally posted by randyk View Post
            We do not have to trade notes inside a bubble to discover that we are compelled to do wrong in the eyes of justice.
            and we are compelled to do right. Is the glass half full or half empty?


            Originally posted by randyk View Post
            We all have compulsions to act against the righteousness of God.
            The fact that you used that phrase here shows you don't know what it means. We have compulsions to act in His Image too. How about that?


            Originally posted by randyk View Post
            If we accept something called "sin," we recognize that our compulsion is to not obey the word of God.
            and when it is?


            Originally posted by randyk View Post
            It doesn't matter that Adam and Eve were born without a sin nature.
            It does matter that we were not.


            Originally posted by randyk View Post
            What contaminated them was disobeying God in the matter of partaking of the fruit of the tree of knowledge.
            Where might I find this contamination?


            Originally posted by randyk View Post
            That did change them, whether you call it a "change in nature" or not.
            Stop making stuff up and provide scripture.


            Originally posted by randyk View Post
            Most Christians call this "change" the development of a "sin nature." Why you don't I can't fathom.
            No Christian has scripture for this change. How am I supposed to fathom that people believe something no scripture states?


            Originally posted by randyk View Post
            Perhaps you think that only Adam and Eve changed their own natures by their disobedience?
            There was no change.


            Originally posted by randyk View Post
            Perhaps you think every individual since Adam and Eve must sin in order to develop his or her own sin nature?
            It doesn't exist.


            Originally posted by randyk View Post
            I believe we were all conceived in sin.
            Yes, we are all born in the world w/o God following the lust of the flesh and mind. That's a relationship issue not a nature issue.


            Originally posted by randyk View Post
            Just like DNA children are born with a sin inheritance in which we compulsively disobey our conscience.
            Like Adam and Eve who didn't have a sin nature? LOL


            Originally posted by randyk View Post
            This is for me a clear indication that all men were born in sin.
            So Adam and Eve had a sin nature?


            Originally posted by randyk View Post
            Incidentally, I don't really care if this thread digresses some. Sometimes our conclusions are drawn from our theology. And that also has to be addressed.
            Yes. Your OP said we sin because of a nature to do so, but scripture doesn't support this notion.

            Comment


            • #21
              Re: is sin just a "Salvation" problem?

              Originally posted by randyk View Post
              Well, I can see why you're concerned. I'm not advocating for taking our minds off of Christ once we are Saved. No, I'm just saying that Salvation is not a continual act of repeating religious works. We may come to Christ for Salvation through prayer, and through repentance. But we don't re-secure our Salvation every time we pray and every time we repent.

              We may sin as Christians, and we may repent as Christians. We don't become non-Christians every time we sin, and then have to come to Christ again for Salvation. That's what I'm referring to.

              Certainly we should always keep our minds on things above. But obviously, we won't always do that. That simply does not take away our Salvation. It just causes us to lose connection momentarily, so that we may sort of "fall asleep" spiritually. The Lord will remind us, at some point, that we need to reestablish our obedience and our gaze on Christ.

              If we could always keep our minds on things above Paul would not have needed to tell us to do that. But the very fact that we do lose our attention to this he finds it necessary to remind us.

              When we do lose our spiritual attention span, we are not losing our Salvation. But if we would prove that we were Saved in the 1st place we need to prove it by demonstrating that we really have a new life inside us by consistently portraying Christ in our lives.

              Those who just reflect Christ here and there, time and again, are not showing they have a new nature. They are just showing they know what's right, and aren't really converting fully. True Salvation is having a new nature, which proves itself by regular obedience to the Lord.
              Okay, thank you for clarifying that for me.
              And, I agree 100% with you there too, amen !
              Don't seek too much knowledge. You just may be putting more weight on your shoulders than you're able to bare.
              Let God be the one to decide how quickly you grow

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: is sin just a "Salvation" problem?

                Originally posted by Noeb View Post
                Wasn't complaining, just stating the facts. You act like the vast majority of Christians believe in original sin/sin nature based on your experience, so it has everything to do with your bubble.
                Sin is the experience. Our nature is just one aspect.
                and we are compelled to do right. Is the glass half full or half empty?
                The fact that you used that phrase here shows you don't know what it means. We have compulsions to act in His Image too. How about that?
                and when it is?
                It does matter that we were not.
                Where might I find this contamination?
                Stop making stuff up and provide scripture.
                No Christian has scripture for this change. How am I supposed to fathom that people believe something no scripture states?
                There was no change.
                It doesn't exist.
                Yes, we are all born in the world w/o God following the lust of the flesh and mind. That's a relationship issue not a nature issue.
                Like Adam and Eve who didn't have a sin nature? LOL
                So Adam and Eve had a sin nature?
                Yes. Your OP said we sin because of a nature to do so, but scripture doesn't support this notion.
                Citing Scriptures doesn't always work. It doesn't work when those Scriptures are interpreted in an unspiritual way. So I'm emphasizing the *meaning* of those Scriptures, which all of us have already heard. I'm trying to keep the spiritual reality in the interpretation.

                Sin is not a physical reality--it is a spiritual reality. DNA is a physical science. The Sin Nature is a spiritual science. Spirituality is as real as physicality. It is easy to deny what you don't see. But it isn't easy to deny the physical evidence of those spiritual realities.

                The fact that the human race 100% rebels against the righteousness of God at times indicates all of us have been born with a sin nature. None of this prohibits us from acting in accord with our created nature, to live in the image of God. We all seek to do good, as well. It is the fact that we do both good and evil that indicates the sin nature is in us and always affects us.

                Sin is based on rebellion not against our own sense of what is right, but against God's word, which is true righteousness. Part of our corruption is the tendency to define what is "righteous" for ourselves.

                But righteousness is really a matter of following the Spirit of God and the word of God. Man universally rebels against this at times, although we also tend to want to do good. This is as the Scriptures put it--Man ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

                Adam and Eve were born without a sin nature, but chose to follow a corrupt satanic word, to define what is good and what is evil for themselves. That corrupted the spiritual nature of Man, and is passed on from generation to generation. Once Man became corrupt then all he did became corrupted as well, including the production of children. Children are therefore born with a sin nature.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: is sin just a "Salvation" problem?

                  I would think if one would want this thread to focus on the purpose of the OP ... that it would be better to not let it be bogged down in discussion of a "sin nature" ... there are plenty of threads concerning that ... just my opinion here ...
                  ***
                  Lead me in Your truth and teach me,
                  For You are the God of my salvation;
                  On You I wait all the day.

                  Psalms 25:5
                  ***

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: is sin just a "Salvation" problem?

                    Originally posted by Noeb View Post
                    Wasn't complaining, just stating the facts. You act like the vast majority of Christians believe in original sin/sin nature based on your experience, so it has everything to do with your bubble.
                    What denominations don't believe in the sin nature?
                    Matt 9:13
                    13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
                    NASU

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: is sin just a "Salvation" problem?

                      Originally posted by randyk View Post
                      We know that sin hurt the 1st Man and Woman. It caused them to suffer in their relationship with God. And it caused them to have to die. Furthermore, it caused them to suffer in labor and in childbirth.

                      We know that redemption exists with God, and that despite all of these problems with sin, there can be forgiveness and eternal restoration. We call this "Eternal Salvation."

                      But is the problem of sin only about Eternal Salvation? I know we can't do much about suffering in labor and in child birth. And I know we can't completely remove the sin nature that exists in our "flesh," as Paul described it....
                      Isn't salvation just the start? Didn't God have a plan for Adam and Eve and all their descendants? I don't think God's ultimate plan every changed. Salvation became a part of it at the fall. But the end result, the end desire, the ultimate purpose never changed one bit. IMO, that was to have man conformed to the image of Jesus. In order to do that, self exaltation/self rule (which is the root of all sin) has to be dealt with. In order to deal with that, man has to first be changed inwardly in his desires (salvation), and then to have that change worked out into the entire being (sanctification). I think that process was available to Adam and Eve in the garden before the fall and is available to anyone after the fall that is born again.
                      Matt 9:13
                      13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
                      NASU

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: is sin just a "Salvation" problem?

                        Originally posted by Brother Mark View Post
                        What denominations don't believe in the sin nature?
                        Why?
                        .

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: is sin just a "Salvation" problem?

                          Originally posted by randyk View Post
                          Citing Scriptures doesn't always work. It doesn't work when those Scriptures are interpreted in an unspiritual way. So I'm emphasizing the *meaning* of those Scriptures, which all of us have already heard. I'm trying to keep the spiritual reality in the interpretation.
                          So read the doctrine of men into the scriptures. Got it.


                          Originally posted by randyk View Post
                          Sin is not a physical reality--it is a spiritual reality. DNA is a physical science.
                          Which Adam and Even had.


                          Originally posted by randyk View Post
                          The Sin Nature is a spiritual science.
                          get outta here lol


                          Originally posted by randyk View Post
                          Spirituality is as real as physicality.
                          Only if you could know it like the physical.


                          Originally posted by randyk View Post
                          The fact that the human race 100% rebels against the righteousness of God at times indicates all of us have been born with a sin nature.
                          Really? You sure it doesn't just indicate we are all born in the world w/o God and w/o hope as scripture says? Use another phrase than righteousness of God. That phrase has a different usage in scripture. How about His nature, character, image?


                          Originally posted by randyk View Post
                          None of this prohibits us from acting in accord with our created nature, to live in the image of God. We all seek to do good
                          but you can't there is no good in you lol


                          Originally posted by randyk View Post
                          It is the fact that we do both good and evil that indicates the sin nature is in us and always affects us.
                          How can you do good if it is your nature to sin?


                          Originally posted by randyk View Post
                          Sin is based on rebellion not against our own sense of what is right, but against God's word, which is true righteousness. Part of our corruption is the tendency to define what is "righteous" for ourselves.
                          that's all hogwash


                          Originally posted by randyk View Post
                          But righteousness is really a matter of following the Spirit of God and the word of God. Man universally rebels against this at times, although we also tend to want to do good. This is as the Scriptures put it--Man ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
                          Where do you read Adam wanted to do good?


                          Originally posted by randyk View Post
                          Adam and Eve were born without a sin nature, but chose to follow a corrupt satanic word, to define what is good and what is evil for themselves.
                          No. They didn't believe God. Don't inject systematic theology into it.


                          Originally posted by randyk View Post
                          That corrupted the spiritual nature of Man
                          Scripture?


                          Originally posted by randyk View Post
                          and is passed on from generation to generation.
                          impossible and completely contrary to scripture!


                          Originally posted by randyk View Post
                          Once Man became corrupt then all he did became corrupted as well, including the production of children.
                          Wow, that's messed up man. That you think something so contrary to scripture.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Re: is sin just a "Salvation" problem?

                            Originally posted by Noeb View Post
                            Why?
                            .
                            You suggested the church is split on the issue. I am curious to where the split is at. Which denominations believe as you do? I can't find any. Perhaps you can shed some light on what denominations or groups of believers disagree with sin nature.

                            Also, you mentioned that Randy was in a bubble. Where can he go to get out of his bubble on the issue? What denomination should he visit that teaches as you believe? If no sin nature is as widely held to as you suggested (i.e. just as widely held to as sin nature according to you in post #10), then it should be easy to find a denomination that believes in no sin nature.

                            So... what denominations believe there is no sin nature?
                            Matt 9:13
                            13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
                            NASU

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Re: is sin just a "Salvation" problem?

                              Originally posted by Brother Mark View Post
                              You suggested the church is split on the issue. I am curious to where the split is at. Which denominations believe as you do? I can't find any. Perhaps you can shed some light on what denominations or groups of believers disagree with sin nature.

                              Also, you mentioned that Randy was in a bubble. Where can he go to get out of his bubble on the issue? What denomination should he visit that teaches as you believe? If no sin nature is as widely held to as you suggested (i.e. just as widely held to as sin nature according to you in post #10), then it should be easy to find a denomination that believes in no sin nature.

                              So... what denominations believe there is no sin nature?
                              Good questions... I'm waiting as well.

                              Originally posted by Brother Mark View Post
                              You suggested the church is split on the issue. I am curious to where the split is at. Which denominations believe as you do? I can't find any. Perhaps you can shed some light on what denominations or groups of believers disagree with sin nature.

                              Also, you mentioned that Randy was in a bubble. Where can he go to get out of his bubble on the issue? What denomination should he visit that teaches as you believe? If no sin nature is as widely held to as you suggested (i.e. just as widely held to as sin nature according to you in post #10), then it should be easy to find a denomination that believes in no sin nature.

                              So... what denominations believe there is no sin nature?
                              Good questions... I'm waiting as well.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Re: is sin just a "Salvation" problem?

                                @ Pbminimum & Brother Mark
                                I am thinking that you two will be waiting for a very, very, very, very, very, very, very long time for that particular answer.
                                Don't seek too much knowledge. You just may be putting more weight on your shoulders than you're able to bare.
                                Let God be the one to decide how quickly you grow

                                Comment

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