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  • #31
    Re: is sin just a "Salvation" problem?

    Well yes, we can digress too far. I would argue that if Salvation was the only issue, we should just all die after getting Saved. But God extends our mortal life here, despite this Sin Nature, to somehow accomplish God's will by Grace.

    The things that God wishes to accomplish, therefore, involve Salvation, ultimately. But there are many other things that we are doing now, in the present age, well before Salvation is completed. And these require defining the expression of God's will in humanity, despite all of our sins.

    Was Israel actively engaged in getting the rest of the world Saved in the OT era? No, that may have been God's ultimate goal, to establish the Christian Gospel in Israel, and then extend that Gospel to all nations. But in reality, God's purpose with Israel, for many years, was simply to get them to be a model of national righteousness. Was this just for the benefit of national Israel, or was this for the purpose of modelling righteousness for other nations in the future?

    I believe it was both. Righteousness always benefits Man and God, whether others benefit in the future from that model or not. So dealing with sin has its own implicit benefit, even though God's purpose in an individual nation may have a more broad purpose among many nations. It isn't just Salvation, but also maintaining an environment of peace within a nation, so that general public righteousness may produce a comfortable habitat. Even the less-godly may contribute to that.

    And so, there is a present benefit, as well as a future benefit for the righteous. There is the matter of enjoying limited blessing now, well before our future Salvation is completed. And there is the matter of continuing to fulfill God's mandate for Man from the beginning, which actually predated any need for Salvation.

    Comment


    • #32
      Re: is sin just a "Salvation" problem?

      Originally posted by randyk View Post
      Well yes, we can digress too far. I would argue that if Salvation was the only issue, we should just all die after getting Saved. But God extends our mortal life here, despite this Sin Nature, to somehow accomplish God's will by Grace.

      The things that God wishes to accomplish, therefore, involve Salvation, ultimately. But there are many other things that we are doing now, in the present age, well before Salvation is completed. And these require defining the expression of God's will in humanity, despite all of our sins.

      Was Israel actively engaged in getting the rest of the world Saved in the OT era? No, that may have been God's ultimate goal, to establish the Christian Gospel in Israel, and then extend that Gospel to all nations. But in reality, God's purpose with Israel, for many years, was simply to get them to be a model of national righteousness. Was this just for the benefit of national Israel, or was this for the purpose of modelling righteousness for other nations in the future?

      I believe it was both. Righteousness always benefits Man and God, whether others benefit in the future from that model or not. So dealing with sin has its own implicit benefit, even though God's purpose in an individual nation may have a more broad purpose among many nations. It isn't just Salvation, but also maintaining an environment of peace within a nation, so that general public righteousness may produce a comfortable habitat. Even the less-godly may contribute to that.

      And so, there is a present benefit, as well as a future benefit for the righteous. There is the matter of enjoying limited blessing now, well before our future Salvation is completed. And there is the matter of continuing to fulfill God's mandate for Man from the beginning, which actually predated any need for Salvation.
      There is one thing ultimately, that God wants. It is our ultimate reason for existance... to be conformed to the image of Christ in order that He might be pleased through loving fellowship with us. In so doing, we find our ultimate fulfillment and pleasure in Him as well.

      For instance, every creator, has a purpose for that which he creates. A pen's purpose, is to write. A lights purpose is to illuminate. A cars purpose is to get people from A to B. And so on. God created us for His pleasure (Rev. 4:11 and Col 1:9-10). Scripture tells us what things please God. 1. Faith Heb 11:6 2. Praising Him 1 Peter 2:9., 3. Loving Him. Ultimately, the last point (loving Him) leads to the 2nd point. But it all begins with faith.

      Also notice that scripture says "The just shall live by faith". It doesn't say in that verse that a man is made just by faith (though he is). But rather that we who are already just/saved shall live by faith. We don't lean on our understanding but His.

      Salvation is just the start. No one has a baby just so that baby can stay a baby. Neither does God. Few have children just to serve. God doesn't have children to serve. Saved to serve is bad theology. If God only wanted servants, he would have stopped with the angels. He wanted a vast family that looked like Jesus, acts like Jesus, trusts like Jesus, and loves like Jesus. that purpose never changed with God from the beginning. He wanted fellowship with someone besides the trinity and man was the way God was going to get it.

      Man is the only created being that can have life from life. Uncreated life can dwell in us and that is a miracle! How can a finite life, a life with a beginning, become one with uncreated Life that has always existed and will always exists? I don't know. It is a miracle. But this is God's ultimate design. Thus salvation is the beginning, sanctification the process, and Christ likeness the ultimate goal so that our purpose, fellowship with God in a way that pleases Him, can be obtained for Himself.

      God bless.
      Matt 9:13
      13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
      NASU

      Comment


      • #33
        Re: is sin just a "Salvation" problem?

        Originally posted by Noeb View Post
        Which is it then? Is he saved, sanctified and heaven-bound or carnal, sold by the first sin, no good in him, evil?
        Yes, Paul was all those things, however, I never said he was evil.

        Originally posted by Noeb View Post
        The word for flesh still means flesh, not sin nature. We should read a doctrine into a passage. This passage describes the condition of man before Jesus, which is noted as the solution a few verses down.
        A few verses down, which one?

        Originally posted by Noeb View Post
        So since the only difference in you is the addition of the Spirit, not having the Spirit is the definition of sin nature?
        No. Despite the Spirit of God in us, sin nature remains an inherent part of mortality.

        Originally posted by Noeb View Post
        Yeah, go back and read that in context. They were not righteous at all. This verse should never be applied to a Christian.
        Really? So Christians are sinless?

        Comment


        • #34
          Re: is sin just a "Salvation" problem?

          Originally posted by Jacob's Ladder View Post
          @ the current discussion over "sin nature"
          Sin nature is in our bibles, it's on almost every one of it's pages of each of it's books, OT and NT.

          Semantics is a game, a game not worth playing. Proverbs 26:4
          Bless you brother for standing up for Biblical truth!

          Comment


          • #35
            Re: is sin just a "Salvation" problem?

            Originally posted by Noeb View Post
            That tactic doesn't work. No sin nature is just as widely accepted when you're not in a bubble. Adam and Even didn't have a sin nature, had no trouble sinning, and a change in nature cannot be found in scripture.
            When one reads Genesis, we find two humans created in God's image. They are eternal because the spirit God gave them, is alive. They are warned... eat the fruit and you will die.

            They ate (due to temptation), they died (spiritually)... how can anyone say what you say in bold/underlined that there is NO change??
            Slug1--out

            ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

            ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

            ~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~


            ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~


            Comment


            • #36
              Re: is sin just a "Salvation" problem?

              Originally posted by Brother Mark View Post
              There is one thing ultimately, that God wants. It is our ultimate reason for existance... to be conformed to the image of Christ in order that He might be pleased through loving fellowship with us. In so doing, we find our ultimate fulfillment and pleasure in Him as well.

              For instance, every creator, has a purpose for that which he creates. A pen's purpose, is to write. A lights purpose is to illuminate. A cars purpose is to get people from A to B. And so on. God created us for His pleasure (Rev. 4:11 and Col 1:9-10). Scripture tells us what things please God. 1. Faith Heb 11:6 2. Praising Him 1 Peter 2:9., 3. Loving Him. Ultimately, the last point (loving Him) leads to the 2nd point. But it all begins with faith.

              Also notice that scripture says "The just shall live by faith". It doesn't say in that verse that a man is made just by faith (though he is). But rather that we who are already just/saved shall live by faith. We don't lean on our understanding but His.

              Salvation is just the start. No one has a baby just so that baby can stay a baby. Neither does God. Few have children just to serve. God doesn't have children to serve. Saved to serve is bad theology. If God only wanted servants, he would have stopped with the angels. He wanted a vast family that looked like Jesus, acts like Jesus, trusts like Jesus, and loves like Jesus. that purpose never changed with God from the beginning. He wanted fellowship with someone besides the trinity and man was the way God was going to get it.

              Man is the only created being that can have life from life. Uncreated life can dwell in us and that is a miracle! How can a finite life, a life with a beginning, become one with uncreated Life that has always existed and will always exists? I don't know. It is a miracle. But this is God's ultimate design. Thus salvation is the beginning, sanctification the process, and Christ likeness the ultimate goal so that our purpose, fellowship with God in a way that pleases Him, can be obtained for Himself.

              God bless.
              Far be it from me to make Man the premier creation of God! For all I know, there are many divisions of angels of various kinds, and I could never make Man superior to them. We all have our own purpose.

              Yes, our lives are a mystery, being that we are created, and have fellowship with the Uncreated One. But we don't know anything else! It is what it is.

              Our purpose, as you say, is to conform to our Creator, because we've been blessed to have been called to that purpose. And we operate as more than servants--we live as children. I agree with you on this too. That's what the Scriptures say. I would say that we're both servants and children. Though we're given lots of freedom to act as children, we must never forget that God is our Lord.

              So when we live in conformity to God we find that our purpose has been the same both before the Fall and after the Fall. Only it is after the Fall that we must conform under more difficulty circumstances and operate by Grace.

              I agree also with the notion of Faith being the principle by which the righteous live. Faith is the appropriation of invisible attributes from God by which we are made righteous. And through the principle of Grace faith appropriates these things without regard for the record of our failure, and despite the presence of a sin nature in our lives. We "overcome," as the Scriptures say.

              Thanks for your statements on these matters. Clearly, we agree as indicated.

              Comment


              • #37
                Re: is sin just a "Salvation" problem?

                Originally posted by randyk View Post
                Far be it from me to make Man the premier creation of God! For all I know, there are many divisions of angels of various kinds, and I could never make Man superior to them. We all have our own purpose.

                Yes, our lives are a mystery, being that we are created, and have fellowship with the Uncreated One. But we don't know anything else! It is what it is.
                In the scriptures, there's no greater relationship than that of family. If all God wanted was servants, He could have and would have stopped at creating angels. But He wanted more. The relationship that God has with humankind is one where His life and our life becomes one, in a marriage, and as sons. The angels look at it and wonder (1 Peter 1:12).

                Unless one can show me in the scriptures where family (wife, children and husband) come 2nd to anyone but God (and since He is our family, i.e. father and husband, then He is in all), I think it is safe to say that within the scriptures, man is the most important creature God made. He is the only creature God marries and the only creature God gives birth to in the scriptures. We are his bride and his children. That is about as high a place as it gets. Not only that, we rule with Him and are co-heirs with Him.

                Our purpose, as you say, is to conform to our Creator, because we've been blessed to have been called to that purpose. And we operate as more than servants--we live as children. I agree with you on this too. That's what the Scriptures say. I would say that we're both servants and children. Though we're given lots of freedom to act as children, we must never forget that God is our Lord.

                So when we live in conformity to God we find that our purpose has been the same both before the Fall and after the Fall. Only it is after the Fall that we must conform under more difficulty circumstances and operate by Grace.

                I agree also with the notion of Faith being the principle by which the righteous live. Faith is the appropriation of invisible attributes from God by which we are made righteous. And through the principle of Grace faith appropriates these things without regard for the record of our failure, and despite the presence of a sin nature in our lives. We "overcome," as the Scriptures say.

                Thanks for your statements on these matters. Clearly, we agree as indicated.
                And when we fulfill our purpose, we find satisfaction in our souls. Imagine if a pen had emotions and was used as a spoon! Oh it would feel like a failure, be depressed, discouraged, would compare itself to other spoons and never feel up to the task and so on. It is important to discern the difference between our purpose and our assignments.

                God bless!
                Matt 9:13
                13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
                NASU

                Comment


                • #38
                  Re: is sin just a "Salvation" problem?

                  Originally posted by Brother Mark View Post
                  In the scriptures, there's no greater relationship than that of family. If all God wanted was servants, He could have and would have stopped at creating angels. But He wanted more. The relationship that God has with humankind is one where His life and our life becomes one, in a marriage, and as sons. The angels look at it and wonder (1 Peter 1:12).


                  Unless one can show me in the scriptures where family (wife, children and husband) come 2nd to anyone but God (and since He is our family, i.e. father and husband, then He is in all), I think it is safe to say that within the scriptures, man is the most important creature God made. He is the only creature God marries and the only creature God gives birth to in the scriptures. We are his bride and his children. That is about as high a place as it gets. Not only that, we rule with Him and are co-heirs with Him.

                  And when we fulfill our purpose, we find satisfaction in our souls. Imagine if a pen had emotions and was used as a spoon! Oh it would feel like a failure, be depressed, discouraged, would compare itself to other spoons and never feel up to the task and so on. It is important to discern the difference between our purpose and our assignments.


                  God bless!
                  Huge strength-in-Christ-blessing come to us individually when we remind ourselves 'daily' of what you shared there.
                  God bless !

                  PS: I'd rep you again if I could.
                  Don't seek too much knowledge. You just may be putting more weight on your shoulders than you're able to bare.
                  Let God be the one to decide how quickly you grow

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Re: is sin just a "Salvation" problem?

                    Originally posted by Brother Mark View Post
                    You suggested the church is split on the issue. I am curious to where the split is at. Which denominations believe as you do? I can't find any. Perhaps you can shed some light on what denominations or groups of believers disagree with sin nature.

                    Also, you mentioned that Randy was in a bubble. Where can he go to get out of his bubble on the issue? What denomination should he visit that teaches as you believe? If no sin nature is as widely held to as you suggested (i.e. just as widely held to as sin nature according to you in post #10), then it should be easy to find a denomination that believes in no sin nature.

                    So... what denominations believe there is no sin nature?
                    Denom=bubble
                    How about finding out what was believed before demon's?

                    Originally posted by Jacob's Ladder View Post
                    @ Pbminimum & Brother Mark
                    I am thinking that you two will be waiting for a very, very, very, very, very, very, very long time for that particular answer.
                    It has been answered repeatedly for years.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Re: is sin just a "Salvation" problem?

                      Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
                      No. Despite the Spirit of God in us, sin nature remains an inherent part of mortality.
                      Scripture?


                      Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
                      Really? So Christians are sinless?
                      If they choose to be.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Re: is sin just a "Salvation" problem?

                        Originally posted by Slug1 View Post
                        When one reads Genesis, we find two humans created in God's image.
                        As we find we are in 1Co 11:7.


                        Originally posted by Slug1 View Post
                        They are eternal because the spirit God gave them, is alive.
                        Wrong! they has breath just as animals. The Spirit of God does not die. Think! Your doctrine is wack! They were immortal because they had not sinned. Mortal in constitution.


                        Originally posted by Slug1 View Post
                        They are warned... eat the fruit and you will die.
                        Sin and die. Physically, and that happened as they were separated from the ToL.


                        Originally posted by Slug1 View Post
                        They ate (due to temptation), they died (spiritually)
                        Separation from God is not a change in constitution.


                        Originally posted by Slug1 View Post
                        ... how can anyone say what you say in bold/underlined that there is NO change??
                        because there is no scripture for it? LOL

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Re: is sin just a "Salvation" problem?

                          Originally posted by Noeb View Post
                          As we find we are in 1Co 11:7.


                          Wrong! they has breath just as animals. The Spirit of God does not die. Think! Your doctrine is wack! They were immortal because they had not sinned. Mortal in constitution.


                          Sin and die. Physically, and that happened as they were separated from the ToL.


                          Separation from God is not a change in constitution.


                          because there is no scripture for it? LOL
                          Originally posted by Noeb View Post
                          Scripture?


                          If they choose to be.
                          Originally posted by Noeb View Post
                          Denom=bubble
                          How about finding out what was believed before demon's?


                          It has been answered repeatedly for years.
                          Hi Noeb !
                          After church today, I relaxed at home and watched several video sermon.

                          A few words from one of those videos actually came back to my mind after reading your last few post here today, those words were: vibrant and useful servant's of Christ need to be tender and tough, not either or, but both tender and tough as a combination.
                          Hence, I want to share that entire video with you now:

                          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gyo4RwyjjRg
                          Don't seek too much knowledge. You just may be putting more weight on your shoulders than you're able to bare.
                          Let God be the one to decide how quickly you grow

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Re: is sin just a "Salvation" problem?

                            Originally posted by Noeb View Post
                            Denom=bubble
                            How about finding out what was believed before demon's?

                            It has been answered repeatedly for years.
                            It has been repeatedly avoided for years Brother Noeb. That's why I keep asking it. What denominations subscribe to your doctrine? You use to say "half of Christianity" believed as you do. I can't find it. Please help us see the other half, or the split.

                            What church group, if you prefer that over denominations, what church groups believe as you do about no original sin?

                            Or you could just say that a small minority of believers believe as you do and that is acceptable to. I have beliefs that I know the church at large does not agree with.

                            God bless!
                            Matt 9:13
                            13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
                            NASU

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Re: is sin just a "Salvation" problem?

                              Originally Posted by Noeb

                              because there is no scripture for it? LOL

                              Do you believe that Adam/Eve were eternal in nature before they sinned? God said that the ONLY way for them to die was to eat of that one tree... don't eat, they will never die.

                              But they ate and they died... you will say this is NOT a change of nature?

                              Genesis 2: 17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”

                              Paul recounts this change:

                              Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned—

                              Why, it can be said that mankind, in innocence had their eye's "opened" once they sinned... meaning, closed to what? This is evidence of a great change

                              Genesis 3: 5 For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”


                              Mankind had NO clue of evil, was not in their mind nor heart. They would not rebel against God on their own volition. There was no temptation, until satan inspired.

                              There was great change in mankind's nature due to eating and thus, dying. Proof?

                              v10 So he said, “I heard Your voice in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; and I hid myself.”

                              Before dying, mankind in their perfect innocence, didn't even know they were naked (NO CLUE in heart nor mind)

                              You don't see a "change" in mankind's nature?
                              Slug1--out

                              ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

                              ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

                              ~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~


                              ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~


                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Re: is sin just a "Salvation" problem?

                                Originally Posted by Noeb

                                It has been answered repeatedly for years.
                                Negative, you've only RESPONDED repeatedly. Here is just another example:


                                Denom=bubble
                                How about finding out what was believed before demon's?


                                This is only a response... THAT, doesn't answer the question.
                                Slug1--out

                                ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

                                ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

                                ~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~


                                ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~


                                Comment

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