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  • #46
    Re: Revival praying

    Originally posted by Aviyah View Post
    I apologize for any miscommunication. I've read each of your posts fully and tried to address your issues with Scripture. If you wouldn't mind replying more specifically why 1 Corinthians 14 doesn't apply to the point you're raising, I may have a better understanding of your position. What I am hearing from you is:

    1) Corporate prayer does not mean having one person pray vocally in a group. (post #32)
    2) Spirit-lead prayer in a group setting (aka, praying in one accord), is different from (or inferior to) being lead in prayer by one person. (post #34)
    3) Prayer is not a method of building up the church. (post #40)

    Therefore, though we are in agreement about the operation of corporate prayer (that it's a matter of heart than exact words spoken), we disagree on the usefulness or validity of one spokesperson during the "corporate prayer" (term pending contest).

    So, I provided Biblical support for distinguishing Spirit-lead, inward, or wordless prayer from spoken, outward, understandable prayer with 1 Corinthians 14. I've also given two instances demonstrating that my usage of 1 Corinthians for the topic is appropriate (Joshua, Hannah).

    Would you mind clarifying why these verses are not pertinent to the discussion? Or if they are pertinent, how am I misusing them?:

    I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray with my understanding [...] When you are praising God in the Spirit [...] you are giving thanks well enough, but no one else is edified. (v. 15-17)
    Thank you, I can respond to that.
    God bless you.

    Although I wont be able to get to it as soon as I would like to, I'll try for the next few hours, but possibly not until tomorrow some time. Because I want to be as detailed and precise as possible.
    Don't seek too much knowledge. You just may be putting more weight on your shoulders than you're able to bare.
    Let God be the one to decide how quickly you grow

    Comment


    • #47
      Re: Revival praying

      Originally posted by Jacob's Ladder View Post
      Thank you, I can respond to that.
      God bless you.

      Although I wont be able to get to it as soon as I would like to, I'll try for the next few hours, but possibly not until tomorrow some time. Because I want to be as detailed and precise as possible.
      Not a problem, thanks in advance!
      「耶和華聖潔無比,獨一無二,沒有磐石像我們的上帝。
      撒母耳記上 (1 Samuel) 2:2

      Comment


      • #48
        Re: Revival praying

        I posted that I would be precise and detailed in this post.
        You might not enjoy this ride, but here you go:
        Originally posted by Aviyah View Post
        I apologize for any miscommunication. I've read each of your posts fully and tried to address your issues with Scripture.
        No need to apologize to me, rather if you still feel a need to apologize then you should offer it to my Master, I am His slave-(in a current process of dying to myself).






        Originally posted by Aviyah View Post
        If you wouldn't mind replying more specifically why 1 Corinthians 14 doesn't apply to the point you're raising, I may have a better understanding of your position.
        First: I am not raising the point, I raised the point, once.
        Although I am still contending for that point, there is a notable difference between raising a point and contending for a previously-presented point.

        My reply to Corinthians 14 may have been obscure/foggy to you because you tried to associate 'edification' to 'prayer' there.
        ....In my understanding, edification and prayer are not the same thing (not even close), nor do they have the same functional purpose within the body of Christ.
        If you would like to discuss that, I'd be eager to participate in that discussion, but not on this thread here.
        Or, you could do an exhaustive concordance search for those two specific word's call#'s from our bibles to quickly realize the notable-large distinguishing differences between those two words to save yourself and the rest of some valuable time.


        Anyway,
        My several reviews of Corinthians 14 (at your request) still leaves me under the impression that you are equating my stance on my prayer life, you are somehow equating that with 'praying in tongues' ?
        .... That said impression of mine is based on that portion of scripture's only mention of prayer is found in the context-of 'praying in tongues'.
        Although praying in tongues in an orderly fashion as in one prays and then another will interpret, in that order, and in the midst of their congregation for edification of the body of the church/Christ's body.
        What I mean is, Corinthians 14 has nothing at all to do with my stated stance on "prayer is for closets/secret/solitude"

        I have no side to take on that practice, if Paul presents it as biblical, then for me, it is a biblical practice. Although I have briefly attended a church that made efforts to accommodate speaking and praying in tongues corporately, it was because I had moved to a new area and was temporarily living with blood-relative until I could get established in that area.
        But, praying in tongues was not and is still does not have anything to do with what I am presenting to be my stance on "prayers are for closets/secret/solitude". <--- still my stance BTW
        Again: If you would like to discuss praying or speaking in tongues, I'd be eager to participate in that discussion, but not on this thread here.






        Originally posted by Aviyah View Post
        What I am hearing from you is:
        1) Corporate prayer does not mean having one person pray vocally in a group. (post #32)
        No. Maybe you miss read post #32 then ?
        Here is the portion of the quote below, where I mentioned corporate prayer inside of that post #32:
        Originally posted by Jacob's Ladder View Post
        You maybe being tripped into assuming just by the use of the word corporate-prayer that it is indicating the prayer is led by an individual just because the prayers in accord with one another.
        The precedent set by most modern western churches of man leading the corporate prayers of a congregation are to blame for that assumption.
        That precedent is not found in most of the rest of the world's modern churches, apart from our modern western churches.
        ....Corporate prayer in no way indicates the prayer is being led by man, even when the example of corporate praying is found in NT scripture.
        And IMO that said precedent is a shame, even a lukewarm-blemish for reasons that have already been expressed in post #26 here on this thread.


        Peace





        Originally posted by Aviyah View Post
        2) Spirit-lead prayer in a group setting (aka, praying in one accord), is different from (or inferior to) being lead in prayer by one person. (post #34)
        Maybe, depending on your definition of those terms used.
        ....When I use the term Spirit led prayer on this thread, my definition of that was " waiting for the Spirit in me lead me as to or not-to pray over a situation or person, and what the Spirit in me leads me to specifically petition God for in regard that a situation or person.






        Originally posted by Aviyah View Post
        3) Prayer is not a method of building up the church. (post #40)
        I definitely do not see myself expressing that prayer is not a method of building up the church in the post that you suggested I have (post#40)
        ....I also have not expressed that at anytime in my long life lived either, but more importantly for me: I have not expressed that anywhere on these forums, that I am aware of.

        However, I have expressed and posted here too, that edification-(building-up) and prayer are two largely and notable different things according to their purpose and function in the church/Christ's body. <--- You can find my expression of that thought in the third section of my reply inside of this same current post.






        Originally posted by Aviyah View Post
        Therefore, though we are in agreement about the operation of corporate prayer (that it's a matter of heart than exact words spoken), we disagree on the usefulness or validity of one spokesperson during the "corporate prayer" (term pending contest).
        Maybe. Again, depending on your definition of the terms that you have just used in this quote above.

        Not sure what you mean by "operation" of corporate prayer. But I can agree that prayer is a matter of the heart, yes.

        Not sure why you so closely associate "usefulness" with "validity" in your postulation upon me here.
        But I will clarify this again: I will not submit, ever, to man leading my prayer, period.
        If I did allow that, then I would be usurping one of the the Holy Spirit's functional-purpose(s) for 'indwelling' me. ie: so I can (personally) be equipped with knowledge of my Father's will, so as to know what "I" should pray for and what God will quickly respond to.






        Originally posted by Aviyah View Post
        So, I've also given two instances demonstrating that my usage of 1 Corinthians for the topic is appropriate (Joshua, Hannah).
        Would you mind clarifying why these verses are not pertinent to the discussion? Or if they are pertinent, how am I misusing them?:
        I did not see your reply about Hannah as direct at any of my post, that is why I have not responded to that that scripture reference.
        .... As for the Joshua scripture reference, I did reply to it because it was directed at me, maybe you missed it ?
        If so, here is that reply again:
        Originally posted by Jacob's Ladder View Post
        Hi Aviyah.
        I cannot disagree with what you've shared about Joshua and the Elders in the old covenant era of God's plan of salvation.

        But, that story of Joshua only represents the old covenant era of God's plan of salvation, an era when the Holy Spirit only came upon certain men (usually only kings, judges, priest and prophets) but never did indwell them since after Adam and Eve.
        But as for now in our current era of God's plan of salvation (the new covenant) the Holy Spirit will indwell us now, He will inspires us from within, not from without because He actually dwells inside of us now.
        Not only that but also will indwell 'all' men who will receive God's Lamb.
        ....Hence I still stand firm on biblical reasons for my preference to not have my prayers led by man, but would rather have my prayer inspired from the Holy Spirit that dwells inside of me.

        What I mean by all of that is, I do not deny the power of what my faith in Jesus Christ affords to me.
        Joshua and the Elders were not afforded that same privilege of having God's Spirit indwell them such as we have now.
        I am always going to take full advantage of all of what God affords to us in His new covenant.
        I'll not only take full advantage of that new covenant, but will also proclaim it loudly to whoever watches my faith being applied to my entire life lived, applying all of what Jesus has done for me.
        (אני לא מכחיש את כוחו של רוח האל השוכן בי.)

        So, although I 100% agree with what you've shared with me about Joshua and his men's prayer there, the point you made is moot as an argument against my reasons for standing firm on only praying through what the Holy Spirit inspires from within me, by not allowing my prayers to be led by man.


        Peace





        Originally posted by Aviyah View Post
        When you are praising God in the Spirit [...] you are giving thanks well enough, but no one else is edified. (v. 15-17)
        Again, I assume that you are also drawing your conclusion here from your interpretation of Corinthians 14 ?
        If so, then again your are confusing edification and prayer.

        Look: it is not God the Father's nor His Lamb's nor His Spirit's duty to edify our fellow brothers and sister in Christ, we christians are charged with that duty, period.
        ....So, if I petition God in prayer for that to be done then I am behaving sinfully, being a sluggard by shirking my responsibility to edify His brethren in an effort to place that responsibility upon Him. When He has already made it redundantly and abundantly clear that it is our responsibility to edify His brethren, not His responsibility.
        Don't seek too much knowledge. You just may be putting more weight on your shoulders than you're able to bare.
        Let God be the one to decide how quickly you grow

        Comment


        • #49
          Re: Revival praying

          Originally posted by Jacob's Ladder View Post
          First: I am not raising the point, I raised the point, once.
          Although I am still contending for that point, there is a notable difference between raising a point and contending for a previously-presented point.
          Being an arm-chair-linguist, I'm sure you've heard of present participles!

          Praying in tongues was not and is still does not have anything to do with what I am presenting to be my stance on "prayers are for closets/secret/solitude"
          Praying in tongues is still praying, of course. I disagree with your opinion on horses, so I've given a zebra example.

          Edification and prayer are not the same thing (not even close), nor do they have the same functional purpose within the body of Christ.
          Correct - they are not the same thing. However, my argument is that prayer can (and should) be used to edify. Perhaps I can clarify with a simpler question. If prayer cannot/does not/should not also serve the purpose of edification, why would Paul encourage that there should be an interpretation of someone praying "in the Spirit?" What's the purpose behind interpreting a Spirit-lead prayer?

          When you are praising God in the Spirit, how can someone else, who is now put in the position of an inquirer, say "Amen" to your thanksgiving, since they do not know what you are saying? You are giving thanks well enough, but no one else is edified.

          Can you pray "with the spirit" alone at church? Yes.

          Can you edify someone when you pray "with the spirit" alone? No.

          Can you edify someone when you pray "with the spirit" AND "understanding?" Yes. (In the case of tongues, understanding requires an interpreter).

          1) Corporate prayer does not mean having one person pray vocally in a group. (post #32)
          No.
          OK.

          2) Spirit-lead prayer in a group setting (aka, praying in one accord), is different from (or inferior to) being lead in prayer by one person. (post #34)
          Maybe [...] my definition of that was " waiting for the Spirit in me lead me as to or not-to pray over a situation or person
          By "lead me to or not to pray," does that also include (but not necessitate) praying vocally over the person/group listening?

          3) Prayer is not a method of building up the church. (post #40)
          I definitely do not see myself expressing that
          OK.

          I will not submit, ever, to man leading my prayer, period.
          We would agree that the person leading the prayer is not a substitute for you praying yourself. However, a "lead prayer" does serve the purpose of edification, where you can join in the praise or petition. This is the function Paul is describing in 1 Cor., notwithstanding tongue prayer is the specific example used.
          「耶和華聖潔無比,獨一無二,沒有磐石像我們的上帝。
          撒母耳記上 (1 Samuel) 2:2

          Comment


          • #50
            Re: Revival praying

            Originally posted by Aviyah View Post
            Being an arm-chair-linguist, I'm sure you've heard of present participles!



            Praying in tongues is still praying, of course. I disagree with your opinion on horses, so I've given a zebra example.



            Correct - they are not the same thing. However, my argument is that prayer can (and should) be used to edify. Perhaps I can clarify with a simpler question. If prayer cannot/does not/should not also serve the purpose of edification, why would Paul encourage that there should be an interpretation of someone praying "in the Spirit?" What's the purpose behind interpreting a Spirit-lead prayer?

            When you are praising God in the Spirit, how can someone else, who is now put in the position of an inquirer, say "Amen" to your thanksgiving, since they do not know what you are saying? You are giving thanks well enough, but no one else is edified.

            Can you pray "with the spirit" alone at church? Yes.

            Can you edify someone when you pray "with the spirit" alone? No.

            Can you edify someone when you pray "with the spirit" AND "understanding?" Yes. (In the case of tongues, understanding requires an interpreter).



            OK.



            By "lead me to or not to pray," does that also include (but not necessitate) praying vocally over the person/group listening?



            OK.



            We would agree that the person leading the prayer is not a substitute for you praying yourself. However, a "lead prayer" does serve the purpose of edification, where you can join in the praise or petition. This is the function Paul is describing in 1 Cor., notwithstanding tongue prayer is the specific example used.
            You are back to your tactic of cherry-picking half sentences in quotes (out of context) to comment on again, I see.
            That's fine Aviyah, I fully understand your fear of honestly communicating with me.


            Peace
            Don't seek too much knowledge. You just may be putting more weight on your shoulders than you're able to bare.
            Let God be the one to decide how quickly you grow

            Comment


            • #51
              Re: Revival praying

              Originally posted by Jacob's Ladder View Post
              You are back to your tactic of cherry-picking half sentences in quotes (out of context) to comment on again, I see.
              That's fine Aviyah, I fully understand your fear of honestly communicating with me.

              Peace
              When I reply to posts in quotes, I use one line or sentence as the main point I'm responding to. I intend it as a courtesy so that there's not a whole block of text taking up room on the page, and also to help keep myself along the train of thought when replying to multiple ideas within one post. I also use it to show that I did read everything in the post before hitting the reply button, especially when something seems critical like those clarifications you gave to my 3 points of understanding. So it's to indicate that I've taken "this part" of the post into consideration for my reply, and I didn't miss something you had taken the time to write.

              It isn't that I am only reading those bubbles which appear in my actual response, in fact I read the entire thing. If you prefer I repost your entire quote, or not use quote bubbles at all, I'll do so for you from now on. The intent and direction of my posts will not change, but will become less concise as I'll need to expand more on exactly which idea I'm speaking towards.

              If you care to read my last reply, you'll find that I actually took nothing out of context. Dishonest and evasive conversation is not my style, as I'm not interested in winning arguments but ascertaining the truth.
              「耶和華聖潔無比,獨一無二,沒有磐石像我們的上帝。
              撒母耳記上 (1 Samuel) 2:2

              Comment


              • #52
                Re: Revival praying

                Originally posted by Aviyah View Post
                When I reply to posts in quotes, I use one line or sentence as the main point I'm responding to. I intend it as a courtesy so that there's not a whole block of text taking up room on the page, and also to help keep myself along the train of thought when replying to multiple ideas within one post. I also use it to show that I did read everything in the post before hitting the reply button, especially when something seems critical like those clarifications you gave to my 3 points of understanding. So it's to indicate that I've taken "this part" of the post into consideration for my reply, and I didn't miss something you had taken the time to write.


                It isn't that I am only reading those bubbles which appear in my actual response, in fact I read the entire thing. If you prefer I repost your entire quote, or not use quote bubbles at all, I'll do so for you from now on. The intent and direction of my posts will not change, but will become less concise as I'll need to expand more on exactly which idea I'm speaking towards.
                No you don't, you habitually quote partial sentences so you can present it out of context to spin it into something you are comfortable responding too.
                That is fear, Aviyah. You are afraid to communicate with me honestly.
                But, I totally understand why you do that, so it is okay, really.

                And since I refuse to allow myself to respond to such communication tactics amicably, then I will just leave it where you have put this.



                Peace
                Don't seek too much knowledge. You just may be putting more weight on your shoulders than you're able to bare.
                Let God be the one to decide how quickly you grow

                Comment


                • #53
                  Re: Revival praying

                  Originally posted by Jacob's Ladder View Post
                  No you don't, you habitually quote partial sentences so you can present it out of context to spin it into something you are comfortable responding too.
                  That is fear, Aviyah. You are afraid to communicate with me honestly.
                  But, I totally understand why you do that, so it is okay, really.

                  And since I refuse to allow myself to respond to such communication tactics amicably, then I will just leave it where you have put this.

                  Peace
                  Alright. We'll let the reader decide who is the one afraid of communication.

                  Thanks for explaining your thoughts.
                  「耶和華聖潔無比,獨一無二,沒有磐石像我們的上帝。
                  撒母耳記上 (1 Samuel) 2:2

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Re: Revival praying

                    You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Aviyah again.
                    "Some people's idea of free speech is that they are free to say what they like, but if anyone says anything back that is an outrage."

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Re: Revival praying

                      Originally posted by Aviyah View Post
                      Alright. We'll let the reader decide who is the one afraid of communication.
                      Oh, so in your mind readers decide right and wrong then, I get it now.
                      Okay then, thank you for further revealing more of your thinking processes to us.
                      Don't seek too much knowledge. You just may be putting more weight on your shoulders than you're able to bare.
                      Let God be the one to decide how quickly you grow

                      Comment

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