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The Parable of the Sower is not the Gospel

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  • #31
    Re: The Parable of the Sower is not the Gospel

    Originally posted by Glorious View Post
    You really turned the kingdom of God into what it ain't and I don't know from where to start straightening them out.
    You nailed it in this conclusion. If one attempts to start, all this will cause is opportunity for Walls to post MORE of the theology (view) he's pushing. See the response for #29... all I got was more of his theology (view). It is difficult to help...
    Slug1--out

    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~

    Comment


    • #32
      Re: The Parable of the Sower is not the Gospel

      Originally posted by Glorious View Post
      Most of these things you write about the salvation and kingdom of God are not true. You really turned the kingdom of God into what it ain't and I don't know from where to start straightening them out.
      Amen !

      PS: One of the saddest amen's that I have ever offered.




      .
      Don't seek too much knowledge. You just may be putting more weight on your shoulders than you're able to bare.
      Let God be the one to decide how quickly you grow

      Comment


      • #33
        Re: The Parable of the Sower is not the Gospel

        Originally posted by Glorious View Post
        There is one gospel of God/Christ having the following parts, fullness and greatness (as in being everlasting):

        1. Faith unto good thing. This part of the gospel refers to the first things of the gospel of Christ.

        Philippians 1:27 KJV declares:
        Only let your conversation be as it becometh the gospel of Christ: that whether I come and see you, or else be absent, I may hear of your affairs, that ye stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel;

        2. Grace unto salvation. This part of the gospel refers to the last/beginning things of the gospel of Christ.

        Acts 20:24 KJV
        But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God.

        3. Kingdom unto hope of glory. This is the fullness (perfection) of the gospel that refers to end things of the gospel of Christ. Because it is the fullness of gospel established in the hope of glory/eternal life, it encapsulates and makes #! and #2 to become eternal. There is not one parable of the kingdom that does not point to a good report by faith and salvation by grace.

        Matthew 24:14 KJV
        And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

        4. Everlasting unto greatness. This is the gospel of things in the great and everlasting realm of the Father that is to come. Because it is the everlasting gospel established in the Father, it encapsulates and makes #!, #2 and #3 to become everlasting in the new age to come.

        Revelation 14:6 KJV
        And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,





        The parable of wheat and tares is not about "counterfeit Christians". It is about saints and children of the devil mixing together in the world. In the fullness of time, angels are commissioned to separate saints from children of the devil by the replenished fruit they bear in the world.




        Again, Walls, there is one gospel. That one gospel may be perverted/corrupted by some preachers and teachers. But, any other gospel is not of God/Christ and draws a curse.

        Galatians 1:8 KJV
        But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.




        Most of these things you write about the salvation and kingdom of God are not true. You really turned the kingdom of God into what it ain't and I don't know from where to start straightening them out.
        Thank you for your view of the various gospels. Except for the last sentence, you did not address my arguments to show where they err, nor did you give an exposition on the Sower. Your last sentence informed us that you did not know where to start correcting my summary of the gospel of salvation and the gospel of the Kingdom. There were 9 points there. I'm sure you could start, say, with a real simple one - point #5

        Salvation is FREE (Eph.2:8) - The Kingdom costs you your (soul) life (Matt.16:24-28)
        You know. There is much to use. For instance the Parable of the Virgins in Matthew Chapter 25. You could start with why the Virgins had to BUY extra oil.

        Just trying to help.

        Comment


        • #34
          Re: The Parable of the Sower is not the Gospel

          Walls wrote:
          Salvation is FREE (Eph.2:8) - The Kingdom costs you your (soul) life (Matt.16:24-28)
          Yes, salvation is free. But, I am curious to know why you say that the kingdom costs you your (soul) life. Is that what you understand of Matt. 16:24-28? Does any part of that scripture teach or preach that you must lose your soul or life upon entering the kingdom of God?

          By the way, the soul is not the life. Rather, life is put in the flesh to make us who we presently are, in the heart to make a living soul, and in the mind to form the living spirit.
          Grace and peace unto you from God the Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ!

          Comment


          • #35
            Re: The Parable of the Sower is not the Gospel

            Originally posted by Glorious View Post
            Walls wrote:


            Yes, salvation is free. But, I am curious to know why you say that the kingdom costs you your (soul) life. Is that what you understand of Matt. 16:24-28? Does any part of that scripture teach or preach that you must lose your soul or life upon entering the kingdom of God?

            By the way, the soul is not the life. Rather, life is put in the flesh to make us who we presently are, in the heart to make a living soul, and in the mind to form the living spirit.
            Genesis 2:7: "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."

            From that moment on, the Bible refers to men as "souls" (e.g. Gen12:5; Acts.2.41). When our Lord Jesus said He would be in Hades, He was His SOUL (Act.2:27, 31). The SOUL of a man is made of three parts, (i) the mind - the thinking organ (Ps.13:2; Lam3:20), (ii) the emotions - the feeling organ (1st Sam.18:1; 2nd Sam.5:8; Isa.61:10; Ps.86:4, etc.), and (iii) the will - the deciding organ (Job.6:7, 7:15; 1st Chron.22:19). The Body of man is the dusty elements of the earth. His spirit is the breath of God. But the MAN is his SOUL.

            Matthew 16:24-28 reads;

            24 "Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
            25 For whosoever will save his
            (soul - psuché, Gk.)-life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his (soul)-life for my sake shall find it.
            26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own (psuché, Gk) soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his
            (psuché, Gk.) soul?
            27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
            28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom."


            The Greek word for "life" in verse 25 is "psuché", the soul. The word for "soul" in verse 26 is the same word. The context is the COMING of the Son of Man IN HIS KINGDOM as Judge of the Church. To come "AFTER" Christ is to follow Him where He goes. In this case - into His Kingdom. He leads as King of kings and those who are REWARDED FOR THEIR WORKS follow. The price for this reward is TWOFOLD:
            1. take up "HIS" (the Christian's own) cross - a daily walk in which the flesh is refused, denied and crucified (Gal.5:24)
            2. lose his (the Christian's) SOUL. To lose your soul means to have sorrow. In Gethsemane, our Lord sweated blood. Wha causes this was extreme anguish of the SOUL. He cries out in Matthew 26:38, "Then saith he unto them, My SOUL is exceeding sorrowful, even UNTO DEATH: tarry ye here, and watch with me."

            The Gospel of salvation is to have FAITH in Jesus. He does the work, and we believe. The Gospel of the Kingdom is YOU do the work - the awfulness of denying both the flesh and the soul - even unto death.

            Comment


            • #36
              Re: The Parable of the Sower is not the Gospel

              Originally posted by Walls View Post
              Genesis 2:7: "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."

              From that moment on, the Bible refers to men as "souls" (e.g. Gen12:5; Acts.2.41). When our Lord Jesus said He would be in Hades, He was His SOUL (Act.2:27, 31). The SOUL of a man is made of three parts, (i) the mind - the thinking organ (Ps.13:2; Lam3:20), (ii) the emotions - the feeling organ (1st Sam.18:1; 2nd Sam.5:8; Isa.61:10; Ps.86:4, etc.), and (iii) the will - the deciding organ (Job.6:7, 7:15; 1st Chron.22:19). The Body of man is the dusty elements of the earth. His spirit is the breath of God. But the MAN is his SOUL.

              Matthew 16:24-28 reads;

              24 "Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
              25 For whosoever will save his
              (soul - psuché, Gk.)-life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his (soul)-life for my sake shall find it.
              26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own (psuché, Gk) soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his
              (psuché, Gk.) soul?
              27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
              28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom."


              The Greek word for "life" in verse 25 is "psuché", the soul. The word for "soul" in verse 26 is the same word. The context is the COMING of the Son of Man IN HIS KINGDOM as Judge of the Church. To come "AFTER" Christ is to follow Him where He goes. In this case - into His Kingdom. He leads as King of kings and those who are REWARDED FOR THEIR WORKS follow. The price for this reward is TWOFOLD:
              1. take up "HIS" (the Christian's own) cross - a daily walk in which the flesh is refused, denied and crucified (Gal.5:24)
              2. lose his (the Christian's) SOUL. To lose your soul means to have sorrow. In Gethsemane, our Lord sweated blood. Wha causes this was extreme anguish of the SOUL. He cries out in Matthew 26:38, "Then saith he unto them, My SOUL is exceeding sorrowful, even UNTO DEATH: tarry ye here, and watch with me."
              Life (light) was breathed into the already created (from dust) man to make him a living soul. Parts of that already created man include the heart and mind.

              When God's breathe of life hits the heart of the already created man, a soul came about. That soul (life in the heart) pours over becomes one with the flesh (body) in which it dwells. That is how come the man can be also called a soul because of the unity.

              When God's breathe of life hits the mind of the already created man, a living spirit was formed upon the soul. That spirit (life in the mind) pours over and becomes one with the soul and flesh (heart and body) in which it dwells. That is how come the man can be also called a spirit because of the unity.

              Both the spirit (in the mind) and the soul (in the heart) do have desires (will) and emotions because the life in them have both will (desire) and emotions. Like the soul, the spirit can cry, vex, etc.


              Originally posted by Walls View Post
              The Gospel of salvation is to have FAITH in Jesus. He does the work, and we believe. The Gospel of the Kingdom is YOU do the work - the awfulness of denying both the flesh and the soul - even unto death.
              Your submission is faulty because the foundation is irredeemably faulty.

              Salvation is not to have faith in Jesus. Rather, after first obtaining faith, the faithful is freely given the grace of God to become a believer. It is that free gift of grace (not the initial gift of faith) that brings about salvation.
              Grace and peace unto you from God the Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ!

              Comment


              • #37
                Re: The Parable of the Sower is not the Gospel

                Originally posted by Walls View Post
                Matthew 13:3-11, 18-23

                In Genesis 1:26-28 we are informed that the purpose God had in mind when He made man was that man would (1) be in the image and likeness of God, and (2) in these attributes, would subdue first and then rule the earth with its environs of sea and sky. That is, man, possessing God’s characteristics, would bring a rule to earth that represented the way God would rule.

                In the course of man’s tragic history, he brought a rule to the earth that represented God’s enemy, Satan. For a while, God had a nation that had His Law, and they were supposed to be a beacon of God’s Character. But within days of getting God’s Law, they willfully broke it. God heeded their leader Moses and did not destroy them, but He promised that He would avenge this affront in due time. Just under a thousand years later, Israel no longer possessed their Land, but were dispersed throughout the surrounding nations. And God’s Home, His Temple, did not exist anymore. But within this utter tragedy for both God and man, God sent word to Daniel that He would one day destroy the rulers of this earth, destroy their kingdom, destroy their attributes, and set up an everlasting Kingdom, headed by a Chosen One of God and some chosen people.

                The Gospel of Matthew ASSUMES that these people have already been chosen. Matthew does not introduce how one is chosen. It cuts directly to the Son of Abraham, whose seed has been promised the earth, (Rom.4:13), and to the Son of David who has a Covenant with God that He will, in due time, sit on Israel’s throne forever.

                The setting of Matthew 13 is very revealing, but space does not permit a comprehensive picture. But what is very revealing is that although a huge crowd attended the teachings of Jesus, He pointedly says that (1) the words he spoke are not for them (v.11), and the words He spoke did not concern who was chosen and how, but, OF THOSE CHOSEN, who would bear fruit!

                Our Lord’s explanation of this parable is critical to the Christian. But first it must be emphasized that it is ONLY GIVEN TO HIS DISCIPLES. Verses 11-12 read:

                10 “And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
                11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.”


                Our Lord Jesus then, having told His disciples that the words were only for them, also said that they expounded “mysteries”. And the mystery in this case was how a chosen man or woman, who had been given every privilege and opportunity, could fail to bear fruit for the Kingdom. The words that our Lord spoke of in this Parable are NOT the words of salvation. They are the “Word of the Kingdom”. They are words that apply to those eligible to be co-kings with Christ. Fruit has some interesting attributes:
                1. It always is the same as the tree it came from. A pear will not come from an apricot tree. A vine will always produce grapes. Thus, there is no talk of these being aberrations. The parable purely addresses those FROM THE SAME TREE WHO WERE FRUITLESS
                2. It is always the issue of the life sap that is in the Tree. If a branch is blocked, there will be no fruit. If the branch is unobstructed there will be fruit. Those who heard the “word of the Kingdom” were not counterfeit branches. THEY WERE GENUINE BRANCHES WHO ALLOWED A BLOCKAGE

                Thus, the Parable does not concern different people. They all belong to the same Tree - the same specie. Added to this, in verse 19, the direct statement of the Lord makes “hearing the word” the same as “sown in his heart”. This Parable is not about those who had the word sown in their hearts, and those who had the word NOT sown in their hearts. THEY ALL had the word of the kingdom sown in their hearts. The problem was not who heard or did not hear. The problem was not who received it into their heart and who did not. The problem was that among ALL WHO RECEIVED THE WORD INTO THEIR HEARTS.

                The problem was not different people, nor was it different perceptions. Nor was the problem about a blockage BEFORE it entered the hearts of the people. They were ALL chosen to hear and appreciate the Kingdom!

                I propose therefore, for discussion, that they that are represented by the WAYSIDE, those represented by the STONY GROUND, those represented by the THORNY GROUND, and those represented by GOOD GROUND are all disciples of Christ and Christians. And the warning, or threat attached to those of the SAME TREE but who do not bear fruit in John 15:6 is;

                “If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.”

                That is, THE CHRISTIAN who allows a blockage of what they HEAR about the KINGDOM (not the Gospel) to prevent fruit, is ...
                • cast forth. Since this is about the King and His Kingdom, an unfruitful Christian will be cast forth from both the King - Jesus, and cast forth from the JOY of the Kingdom. He will see it, but not be allowed in the presence of Christ, nor allowed the joy, pleasures and benefits of this wonderful Kingdom
                • is withered. The Christian who does not bear fruit will lose his/her ability to ever bear fruit. Added to this they will appear unfruitful, unhealthy and unpleasant
                • is gathered by MEN. It is NOT, “disciples”, nor “angels”, BUT MEN - the heathen. It will be the lot of the Christian who allows a blockage to be MISTREATED by those he should have had rule over
                • BURNT. Instead of entering the “JOY of the Lord”, instead of fame, wealth and bliss, they will experience FIRE. Unlike Daniel’s friends, they will not be spared by this FIRE. It will hurt them, wound them and consume them, and because it is administered by MEN, it will insult and humiliate them

                This is the lot of a Christian who allows diverse outside things of this world to make him/her unfruitful.
                I must continue to disagree with this position, and will reiterate the points. Matthew is referring to a time *before* the Gentile Church enters into the picture. This is a time when Israel remains the exclusive People of God. They had all received the word of the future Kingdom. They did not yet realize that other nations would be able to enter into that Kingdom themselves. This was just the model for an international Gospel, and it was a specific time in Israel's history when they, as a a nation, were at their worst.

                To distinguish this Gospel of the Kingdom from Salvation begs that we define what Salvation was for Israel. It was the gathering together of the nation, after a period of judgment, so that they would enter, once again, into the blessings that obedience promised. This was for the whole nation, and not just for a select number of individuals. However, it was well known, during the period of judgment, that the nation itself could be scattered, leaving only a relative handful of individuals in a position of favor with God.

                The "mystery" of Jesus' parables showed recognition, by Jesus, that the nation, as a whole, was not yet ready for National Salvation. Only a relative handful would fully understand this message of National Salvation. Only they would take seriously the words of Jesus and put them into effect in their lives. The nation, as a whole, would go through another cycle of national judgment--the worst ever, and an age-long judgment, until the nation could be purified by fire, removing the wicked, and preparing the nation to receive a National Message once again.

                The clear message is that no matter what place a nation is in, in an intensely wicked state, or in a humbled state, ready to receive the message of National Salvation, Jesus' parables and words will only be received by those humbled before the presence of God. And this is Salvation, to receive this word, put it into effect, and to thus receive the promise of eternal life in God's future Kingdom.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by randyk View Post
                  Re: The Parable of the Sower is not the Gospel



                  I must continue to disagree with this position, and will reiterate the points. Matthew is referring to a time *before* the Gentile Church enters into the picture. This is a time when Israel remains the exclusive People of God. They had all received the word of the future Kingdom. They did not yet realize that other nations would be able to enter into that Kingdom themselves. This was just the model for an international Gospel, and it was a specific time in Israel's history when they, as a a nation, were at their worst.

                  To distinguish this Gospel of the Kingdom from Salvation begs that we define what Salvation was for Israel. It was the gathering together of the nation, after a period of judgment, so that they would enter, once again, into the blessings that obedience promised. This was for the whole nation, and not just for a select number of individuals. However, it was well known, during the period of judgment, that the nation itself could be scattered, leaving only a relative handful of individuals in a position of favor with God.

                  The "mystery" of Jesus' parables showed recognition, by Jesus, that the nation, as a whole, was not yet ready for National Salvation. Only a relative handful would fully understand this message of National Salvation. Only they would take seriously the words of Jesus and put them into effect in their lives. The nation, as a whole, would go through another cycle of national judgment--the worst ever, and an age-long judgment, until the nation could be purified by fire, removing the wicked, and preparing the nation to receive a National Message once again.

                  The clear message is that no matter what place a nation is in, in an intensely wicked state, or in a humbled state, ready to receive the message of National Salvation, Jesus' parables and words will only be received by those humbled before the presence of God. And this is Salvation, to receive this word, put it into effect, and to thus receive the promise of eternal life in God's future Kingdom.
                  But nothing could be further from both the setting and the words used.
                  • First, you continue to use the word "Salvation". But Matthew is not about salvation, it is about the Kingdom. Then the immediate context is Chapter 12 in which our Lord cast out demons. Casting out demons is not salvation but a sign of the Kingdom (Lk.11:20).
                  • Next, in Chapter 12 the Lord denies His bond with "His brethren according to the flesh" - even with His mother
                  • Next, the Lord leaves a "House" - the House that accused Him of being a servant of Beelzebub
                  • Next, the Lord leaves the "sea shore" - Israel
                  • Next, the Lord speaks to the "disciples"
                  • Next, the Lord speaks to those Isaiah spoke of in Parables so that they would not know - Israel
                  • Next, the Lord expounds and explains the Parable only to His "disciples"
                  • Next, the Lord enters another House - one where He and His "disciples" only are - a place where understanding of the Parables is to be had
                  • Finally, all your sentiments that this was directed at Israel are negated by the last verse of the Chapter Matthew 13:57; "And they (His own country) were offended in him. But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, save in his own country, and in his own house."
                  This veritable MOUND of evidence points to Israel set aside, rejected and left in confusion and total lack of understanding.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Walls View Post
                    Re: The Parable of the Sower is not the Gospel



                    Correct. If you will allow, and I'll do my best to make it short, I would like to explain my view.

                    First, there are no scriptures that show dead men going to heaven. There ARE scriptures showing men ALIVE and in their BODIES going to heaven. The process of a LIVING man defying gravity and being caught away to heaven is well documented in Enoch, Elijah, our Lord Jesus Himself and the 144,000 of Revelation 14. But it is also just as clearly stated that these will NOT STAY in heaven.
                    1. The first man raptured, Enoch, made a prophecy recorded by Jude under inspiration. It reads; "And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints" (Jude 1:14)
                    2. Zechariah starts Chapter 14 with the Lord coming to judge the nations. Verse 4 speaks of His feet touching down on Mount Olives. So the third MAN recorded as going to heaven returns to earth for the battle of Armageddon
                    3. Zechariah 14 continues in verse 5 with what Enoch said, "... and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee."
                    4. Then, in 1st Thessalonians 4:14, Paul makes the same statement. When Christ comes, he will have the saints with Him. The rest of the Chapter tells how this is possible - by a resurrection of the dead Christians to the surface of the earth, and then TOGETHER with the LIVING saints, they are ALL caught away to the air and the clouds.
                    5. Revelation 14, already mentioned above, tells how the 144,000 got to be before the throne where the 4 Creatures and 24 Elders are. They are "redeemed FROM the earth" (v.3).
                    6. In Revelation 19, the scene again is heaven and the throne. The 24 Elders and the 4 Creatures, which Chapter 4 assures us are in heaven, are present. A company wearing white robes are said to be the privileged to be invited to the Wedding Feast. This same company, in verse 14 are also counted as an army. The Lord Jesus descends with this company and the slaughter of Armageddon, which is on earth about 70 miles west of Jerusalem, begins.

                    Here then are FIVE proofs from Enoch to the last persons raptured (most probably the Two Witnesses of Revelation 11), that the saints who are in heaven, LEAVE IT - led by the Chiefest among men, our Lord Jesus Christ. From then on, the prophets of the Old Testament have Emmanuel living in Jerusalem.

                    Returning to our theme - the Millennial Kingdom - I propose that the slovenly, slothful, wicked, sinful and lukewarm Christians WILL BE ON EARTH DURING THE MILLENNIUM, WILL "SEE" THE KINGDOM, BUT WILL NOT BE ALLOWED NEAR ITS ACTIVITIES AND JOYS, AND NOT BE ALLOWED NEAR JESUS CHRIST*. Just as Israel was, during the time f their chastisement, these Christians will be (i) grieving for what they lost (weeping and gnashing of teeth), (ii) be scorned by Christ and His co-kings, (iii) be the laughing stock of the nations, and (iv) a by-word until the Millennium is over. The Parable of the Sower, if a pinch of literalness is added, shows that at least 75% of "those who had the word of the kingdom in their hearts" bear no fruit and cast out to be burnt by MEN.

                    * I anticipate a huge cry from my fellows that our Lord Jesus said that He would never leave us. This misconception comes from an unfortunate decision by our very capable and esteemed translators. In Matthew 28:20 they use the word "world". But the Greek is "aion" which means "AGE". It should read; "Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the AGE. Amen." Our Lord Jesus promised never to leave us ONLY TILL THE END OF THE AGE. After that, as we see, the slothful Christians are CAST OUT to OUTER DARKNESS. "Darkness" has two mournful connotations:
                    1. It represents God's judgement (Gen.1:2; Zeph.1:15; Matt.27:45)
                    2. It is the are where our Lord Jesus, "Light of the world" IS NOT PRESENT! (Jn.8:12, 9:5)
                    Phil 3:20 For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who will transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to His glorious body, according to the working by which He is able even to subdue all things to Himself.

                    edit, I see this works now!!
                    Slug1--out

                    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Slug1 View Post

                      Phil 3:20 For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who will transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to His glorious body, according to the working by which He is able even to subdue all things to Himself.

                      edit, I see this works now!!
                      Amen! A wonderful verse.
                      • "Our citizenship is in heaven": The Greek is "politeuma", meaning; a political community , i.e. (abstractly) a citizenship". (Strong's Greek & Hebrew Dictionary). It is present continuous tense, showing not where we are presently, but which political commonwealth we belong to. This is because we are "born from ABOVE" (Jn.3:3 lit. Gk.), are of "the heavenly calling" (Heb.3:11), await a Kingdom (out) of Heaven and a Savior who dwells there, who has reserved our reward in heaven so that moth and thief cannot deplete it.
                      • "FROM which we eagerly await": We are on earth and our Lord, at His Second Coming, comes FROM heaven. We must "WAIT" because He delays His coming. If we were already in heaven we would not have to wait.
                      • "He will transform our lowly bodies". When? At His Coming! (1st Cor.15:51-52)

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Walls View Post

                        Amen! A wonderful verse.
                        • "Our citizenship is in heaven": The Greek is "politeuma", meaning; a political community , i.e. (abstractly) a citizenship". (Strong's Greek & Hebrew Dictionary). It is present continuous tense, showing not where we are presently, but which political commonwealth we belong to. This is because we are "born from ABOVE" (Jn.3:3 lit. Gk.), are of "the heavenly calling" (Heb.3:11), await a Kingdom (out) of Heaven and a Savior who dwells there, who has reserved our reward in heaven so that moth and thief cannot deplete it.
                        • "FROM which we eagerly await": We are on earth and our Lord, at His Second Coming, comes FROM heaven. We must "WAIT" because He delays His coming. If we were already in heaven we would not have to wait.
                        • "He will transform our lowly bodies". When? At His Coming! (1st Cor.15:51-52)
                        Does this answer account for the context of the Phil 1:23 verse? As well as the Revelation verse (can't recall from memory) already posted about Christians, who have already passed, being seen in heaven worshiping God?

                        WHEN Jesus returns we are given our "new" bodies (resurrection), so in that, I agree. However, the context of "where" believers are in the mean-time (when they pass on)... is in heaven with Christ.
                        Slug1--out

                        ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Slug1 View Post

                          Does this answer account for the context of the Phil 1:23 verse? As well as the Revelation verse (can't recall from memory) already posted about Christians, who have already passed, being seen in heaven worshiping God?

                          WHEN Jesus returns we are given our "new" bodies (resurrection), so in that, I agree. However, the context of "where" believers are in the mean-time (when they pass on)... is in heaven with Christ.
                          Where the saints are is easily seen by the scripture I gave from 1st Corinthians 15:51-52. The dead RISE. So also 1st Thessalonians 4:16-17. And so also our Lord Jesus. David, on the other hand, is NOT "ascended to heaven" 50 days after Christ's resurrection.

                          Philippians 1:23 reads;"For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better". So where is Christ as Paul writes this and where is Christ now?
                          • Our Lord Jesus is a LIVING Man. That is, He is Body, Soul and Spirit joined together. As a Man He sits in His Father's Throne "above the highest heaven" (Eph.4:10).
                          • Our Lord is the Comforter - a Spirit. In John 14:15-20 the Lord is a Spirit and dwells in us. So He is on earth now and in you (Col.1:27)
                          • Our Lord is a Spirit that can give resurrection Life (1st Cor.15:45)
                          • Our Lord is a SOUL. In Acts.2:31 HE was not left in Hades, but it was His SOUL that was not left in Hades
                          • Our Lord Jesus is a Spirit Who is OMNIPRESENT (Ps.139:7-14). Here, our Lord Jesus is meant because He is Maker (Jn.1:3). Verse 8 says He is in Hades also
                          So, where our Lord Jesus is will not answer Philippians 1:23. He is EVERYWHERE - as man, as Spirit, as Soul and as Maker of all things. Where Paul would go at death must be decided by other verses. But there is a hint. If it is "far better" where Paul would go at death, what are the chances that it is Paradise - like the malefactor on the cross next to our Lord Jesus. I would place my bet on the last point above. Our Lord, as a Spirit, is in the Christian's spirit until death. Then the spirit of the Christian returns to God. Psalm 139:8 says that Christ, as a Spirit, is WITH the SOUL of the Psalmist - not in it.

                          The verse you seek in Revelation is 6:9. Martyrs are under the Altar. In the Tabernacle there were TWO altars.
                          1. The altar of SACRIFICE. It is in the Outer Court, is made of Acacia Wood and overlaid with Brass from the censors of Korah and his rebels
                          2. The altar of INCENSE. It is the the Holy Place, hard against the Veil, and is overlaid with gold. No sacrifices were allowed on it.
                          Moses made the Tabernacle according to the "pattern" of the heavenly Tabernacle. But in heaven there is no need for sacrifice. Thus, there is no Bronze Altar of SACRIFICE. It does not belong to the "Tent". Added to this, the Bronze altar of SACRIFICE was to be fixed to the earth and no steps up to it were allowed. The earth is where Christ was sacrificed, and the earth is where the martyrs are sacrificed. The ALTAR of Revelation 6:9 must be the Bronze Altar fixed to the earth. The martyred saints are therefore UNDER the earth.



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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Walls View Post

                            Where the saints are is easily seen by the scripture I gave from 1st Corinthians 15:51-52. The dead RISE. So also 1st Thessalonians 4:16-17. And so also our Lord Jesus. David, on the other hand, is NOT "ascended to heaven" 50 days after Christ's resurrection.

                            Philippians 1:23 reads;"For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better". So where is Christ as Paul writes this and where is Christ now?
                            • Our Lord Jesus is a LIVING Man. That is, He is Body, Soul and Spirit joined together. As a Man He sits in His Father's Throne "above the highest heaven" (Eph.4:10).
                            • Our Lord is the Comforter - a Spirit. In John 14:15-20 the Lord is a Spirit and dwells in us. So He is on earth now and in you (Col.1:27)
                            • Our Lord is a Spirit that can give resurrection Life (1st Cor.15:45)
                            • Our Lord is a SOUL. In Acts.2:31 HE was not left in Hades, but it was His SOUL that was not left in Hades
                            • Our Lord Jesus is a Spirit Who is OMNIPRESENT (Ps.139:7-14). Here, our Lord Jesus is meant because He is Maker (Jn.1:3). Verse 8 says He is in Hades also
                            So, where our Lord Jesus is will not answer Philippians 1:23. He is EVERYWHERE - as man, as Spirit, as Soul and as Maker of all things. Where Paul would go at death must be decided by other verses. But there is a hint. If it is "far better" where Paul would go at death, what are the chances that it is Paradise - like the malefactor on the cross next to our Lord Jesus. I would place my bet on the last point above. Our Lord, as a Spirit, is in the Christian's spirit until death. Then the spirit of the Christian returns to God. Psalm 139:8 says that Christ, as a Spirit, is WITH the SOUL of the Psalmist - not in it.

                            The verse you seek in Revelation is 6:9. Martyrs are under the Altar. In the Tabernacle there were TWO altars.
                            1. The altar of SACRIFICE. It is in the Outer Court, is made of Acacia Wood and overlaid with Brass from the censors of Korah and his rebels
                            2. The altar of INCENSE. It is the the Holy Place, hard against the Veil, and is overlaid with gold. No sacrifices were allowed on it.
                            Moses made the Tabernacle according to the "pattern" of the heavenly Tabernacle. But in heaven there is no need for sacrifice. Thus, there is no Bronze Altar of SACRIFICE. It does not belong to the "Tent". Added to this, the Bronze altar of SACRIFICE was to be fixed to the earth and no steps up to it were allowed. The earth is where Christ was sacrificed, and the earth is where the martyrs are sacrificed. The ALTAR of Revelation 6:9 must be the Bronze Altar fixed to the earth. The martyred saints are therefore UNDER the earth.


                            You are making the verse concerning the location of Jesus fit into your theology (eisegesis) and not working out a theology based on the scriptures (exegesis). Paul ID's Jesus as being in heaven due to many of the very points you make, based on the verses you raise to make the points... and then you CHANGE the location to fit your ideas (theology) of scripture.

                            So, I can't agree with ya brother.
                            Slug1--out

                            ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Slug1 View Post

                              You are making the verse concerning the location of Jesus fit into your theology (eisegesis) and not working out a theology based on the scriptures (exegesis). Paul ID's Jesus as being in heaven due to many of the very points you make, based on the verses you raise to make the points... and then you CHANGE the location to fit your ideas (theology) of scripture.

                              So, I can't agree with ya brother.
                              While in posting after posting on this matter, you deny the proofs I've laid forth, you also refuse (1) to give scriptures that dead men go to heaven, (2) to give your exegesis on those verses, (3) to tell what disembodied men do in heaven, and (4) to explain why suddenly, at Christ's Second Coming, they descend (so that they can RISE) and on RISING, receive a new and glorified body that they did not need in heaven! I would conclude that dead men in heaven is your cherished doctrine, whether you can settle it factually or not. But, then again, don't worry. You're with the majority.

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Walls View Post

                                While in posting after posting on this matter, you deny the proofs I've laid forth, you also refuse (1) to give scriptures that dead men go to heaven, (2) to give your exegesis on those verses, (3) to tell what disembodied men do in heaven, and (4) to explain why suddenly, at Christ's Second Coming, they descend (so that they can RISE) and on RISING, receive a new and glorified body that they did not need in heaven! I would conclude that dead men in heaven is your cherished doctrine, whether you can settle it factually or not. But, then again, don't worry. You're with the majority.
                                Over the years many, not just myself, HAVE done what you ask. Since all scriptures raised and exhorted with exegesis does not "fit" within your ideas of those scriptures, you reject all exegesis/exhortations of the many scriptures.

                                At least you've dropped the line about how your ideas of scripture has gone uncontested...

                                Paul KNEW where he was going, TO be with Christ.

                                As for the #4... the spirit/soul in heaven will be joined with the gloried (resurrected) body that has returned to dust in the earth. So yeah, you can say that scripture shows a descent then rising in effect.

                                Slug1--out

                                ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~

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