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Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future? (part two)

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  • Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future? (part two)

    Originally posted by Walls View Post
    God's Word IS sufficient. But if you read the opening verses of Genesis Chapter 17, you will see that it pleased the Lord to make Covenant. No one can get God to enter a Covenant. It must come from Him. Where the Covenant has its power is NOT from God's side. He always keeps His Word. It is to bind men who are Covenant-breakers.




    Galatians Chapter 3, within the context of the whole Book that condemns the Law as a means to sanctification, shows how a Christian can become an heir to the Covenant of Promise WITHOUT being the fleshly seed of Abraham. The "Seed" (Singular and Capitalized) is still Seed of Abraham, as both Matthew and Luke's genealogies show. But WITHIN HIM He had the means to bring forth seed via the Holy Spirit, not sex. Galatians 3:14 says; "That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith." Up until our Lord Jesus, every "seed" of Abraham came via the loins. But now One came Who could generate via the Spirit. In John 12:24 it is; "Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit." Our Lord Jesus becomes the Vehicle for Gentiles, who are not fleshly seed of Abraham, NY FAITH (and NOT Law), to become heirs to the Promises.

    And because we are now joined in Covenant for the earth (Rom.4:13), we must be circumcised. But TWO things have changed.
    1. The Covenant of Promise is now open to women as well
    2. The old Body is not fit for inheriting the earth.


    Circumcision is enough for Canaan, but for the inheriting of the whole earth the whole flesh must be cut off (1st Cor.15:50). But God needs the Christian for His Name and for the Church. So, instead of cutting off the whole flesh in instant death, the Lord changes the "sign" of circumcision to BAPTISM (fully immersed in the death waters symbolically - Col.2:10-12)


    So, while the Christian is exempt from, nay ... FORBIDDEN, the Covenant of Law, he/she is very much part of the Covenant of Promise.


    P.S. The reason that we have problems with this Covenant is that deep down we think we are going to heaven. If that is true then the Covenant made with Abraham is MOOT. But if man is made for, and redeemed for THE EARTH, then it is everything.
    This is the last post from this discussion, the prior thread was closed due to reaching over 1000 posts.
    Mal 3:16 Then they that feared the Lord spake often one to another: and the Lord hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the Lord, and that thought upon his name.

  • #2
    Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future? (part two)

    The above posting was in answer to a specific objection. It does not reflect the actual title of the thread. So I would like, very briefly, to turn the thread back to the title.

    Jeremiah Chapter 31 starts, in verse 1, with; "At the same time, saith the LORD, will I be the God of all the families of Israel, and they shall be my people." The Chapter goes on to tell of "the latter days"* when Ephraim and Judah are gathered back in joy and blessing to their Land. Then, in the midst of all this joy and renewed blessing by God, Who has put away His anger, we come to Jeremiah 31:31-34. It reads;

    31 "Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
    32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
    33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
    34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more."

    • The context is that time when God's anger with Israel is spent, and He gathers them back to their Land, and instead of "Lo-ammi" (you are NOT my people), Jehovah is willing to call them His People again (v.1).
    • The context is Israel, the ten Northern Tribes, UNITED with Judah, the two Southern Tribes, UNITED
    • Jeremiah was a prophet at the time of Nebuchadnezzar's rape and destruction of Jerusalem. So, when he says ""the days come", it must refer to something future to what happened in 587 BC. Since 580 BC, the ten northern Tribes have NEVER been recovered. They still languish among all nations. Of Judah, only 2.5% returned to build the Second Temple. The other 97.5% still languish among the nations. Today, more than half of all known Israelites languish among the nations.

    There is no other option but to say that the New Covenant, which is made EXCLUSIVELY with COMBINED and RESTORED Israel, is still future to us in 2019 AD. The fact that our Lord Jesus's blood was shed for this Covenant only means that it was RATIFIED then. But it can only be instituted when Israel is ONE NATION IN THEIR LAND. This includes ALL Israelites who were ever born and who are either dead, or still alive. The great resurrection of Israel in Daniel 12:2 has not yet happened as we write.

    * The term "latter days" is not an incorrect rendering of Jeremiah 30:24, but is does not fully explain the Hebrew word. Rather it means "in the END of days", or literally, "the hindermost days".

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future? (part two)

      Originally posted by Walls View Post
      The above posting was in answer to a specific objection. It does not reflect the actual title of the thread. So I would like, very briefly, to turn the thread back to the title.

      Jeremiah Chapter 31 starts, in verse 1, with; "At the same time, saith the LORD, will I be the God of all the families of Israel, and they shall be my people." The Chapter goes on to tell of "the latter days"* when Ephraim and Judah are gathered back in joy and blessing to their Land. Then, in the midst of all this joy and renewed blessing by God, Who has put away His anger, we come to Jeremiah 31:31-34. It reads;

      31 "Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
      32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
      33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
      34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more."

      • The context is that time when God's anger with Israel is spent, and He gathers them back to their Land, and instead of "Lo-ammi" (you are NOT my people), Jehovah is willing to call them His People again (v.1).
      • The context is Israel, the ten Northern Tribes, UNITED with Judah, the two Southern Tribes, UNITED
      • Jeremiah was a prophet at the time of Nebuchadnezzar's rape and destruction of Jerusalem. So, when he says ""the days come", it must refer to something future to what happened in 587 BC. Since 580 BC, the ten northern Tribes have NEVER been recovered. They still languish among all nations. Of Judah, only 2.5% returned to build the Second Temple. The other 97.5% still languish among the nations. Today, more than half of all known Israelites languish among the nations.

      There is no other option but to say that the New Covenant, which is made EXCLUSIVELY with COMBINED and RESTORED Israel, is still future to us in 2019 AD. The fact that our Lord Jesus's blood was shed for this Covenant only means that it was RATIFIED then. But it can only be instituted when Israel is ONE NATION IN THEIR LAND. This includes ALL Israelites who were ever born and who are either dead, or still alive. The great resurrection of Israel in Daniel 12:2 has not yet happened as we write.

      * The term "latter days" is not an incorrect rendering of Jeremiah 30:24, but is does not fully explain the Hebrew word. Rather it means "in the END of days", or literally, "the hindermost days".
      There is nothing in scripture to support the idea that the New Covenant, ratified on the cross as you corrected pointed out, yet inexplicably deferred to some vague future time.

      Comment


      • #4
        Israel is today represented by Jews, whether in Israel or in Diaspora. The Covenant of Christ was instituted on the Cross and in the Resurrection. Out of this act of redemption a lot of things will happen, including the recovery of people among many nations, including Israel, to the Lord. The restoration of Israel was promised, and is also the product of Christ's act of redemption. The fact it took so long does not mean the Covenant was not in effect. It only means that the Covenant will be appropriated by Jews in the future when they are regathered to Israel and become Christians. All those in history who have become Christians appropriated this redemption at the point where they accepted Christ.

        Comment


        • #5
          The new update is absolutely horrible.
          James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

          Comment


          • #6
            The Israel of God is made up all servants, children and sons of God raised up to become the people of God. The people of God fellowship with the Father in His great name that is in the post perfection realm of everlasting glory.

            Whosoever is counted among the people of God fellowships with the Father in His great realm of everlasting glory and obtains His great word called the new covenant.

            Any word of the Father coming down to His servants, children and sons in the world is generally known as the covenant. Any word of Christ (Son of God) spoken to servants, children and sons in the world is generally known as the will of God. The law was a type of the covenant and will of God. That law is now obsolete for those who directly fellowship with the Father and the Son.

            The new covenant is futuristic for servants, children and sons in the Christ who are yet raised up into the Israel of God. But, it is the present and everlasting gospel for those who are called the people of God.
            Grace and peace unto you from God the Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ!

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
              Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future? (part two)



              There is nothing in scripture to support the idea that the New Covenant, ratified on the cross as you corrected pointed out, yet inexplicably deferred to some vague future time.
              I posted four paragraphs and a footnote showing "support". But this you ignore. What you really should post is that you have believed all your Christian life that the New Covenant is:
              1. in effect
              2. applies to the Church
              ... and that to admit that it is for Israel, only when the dead of Israel are resurrected, when ALL Israel are in their Land, and is a Covenant of Law, as scripture plainly says, would be too much for one day. Here is the plain language of the inspired word, by a Hebrew prophet, to Israel on the cusp of deportation and scattering among all nations, BEFORE the Church is ever revealed.

              Jeremiah 31:31-33
              31 "Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
              32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
              33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people."


              "The days come". This imparts the following bits of information. (1) It is future to Jeremiah's time. (2) The context is when Ephraim and Judah will be one nation again. From Jeremiah's time till now, this has not happened. (3) It is with ALL the House of Israel. That means ALL who have died, wherever, and whenever, must be resurrected. This has not happened to date. (4) The "days" of the first Covenant of Law are still in effect. If Jews are still suffering persecution, if they are still dispersed, the curses of Leviticus 26 and Deuteronomy 28 are still in effect.
              "Not according to the Covenant of those who left Egypt". They are "days" when the Law will be IN Israelites and not in a Book.

              "No support .... . "

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Glorious View Post
                The Israel of God is made up all servants, children and sons of God raised up to become the people of God. The people of God fellowship with the Father in His great name that is in the post perfection realm of everlasting glory.

                Whosoever is counted among the people of God fellowships with the Father in His great realm of everlasting glory and obtains His great word called the new covenant.

                Any word of the Father coming down to His servants, children and sons in the world is generally known as the covenant. Any word of Christ (Son of God) spoken to servants, children and sons in the world is generally known as the will of God. The law was a type of the covenant and will of God. That law is now obsolete for those who directly fellowship with the Father and the Son.

                The new covenant is futuristic for servants, children and sons in the Christ who are yet raised up into the Israel of God. But, it is the present and everlasting gospel for those who are called the people of God.
                And not a single scripture to show for this. Why? Because it is pure human philosophy.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
                  The new update is absolutely horrible.
                  It is not finished yet. Basic functionality has been restored so it is open for use.
                  Mal 3:16 Then they that feared the Lord spake often one to another: and the Lord hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the Lord, and that thought upon his name.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Walls View Post

                    And not a single scripture to show for this. Why? Because it is pure human philosophy.
                    Which part of my post do you need scripture in order to accept or understand? It is not always that scriptures must be quoted to supposed Bible students/scholars who are supposed to know some general things.

                    Do you need scripture to accept the people of God fellowship with the Father and Son? 1 John 1:3 KJV declares: "That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ".

                    Do you need scriptures to accept that the Israel of God has servants? Leviticus 25:55 KJV declares: "For unto me the children of Israel are servants; they are my servants whom I brought forth out of the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God." A child is not different from a servant except that s/he (child) is a heir.

                    Do you need a scripture to accept that the Israel of God has children? Acts 10:36 KJV declares: "The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all"

                    Do you need a scripture to accept that the Israel of God has sons? Genesis 42:5 KJV declares "And the sons of Israel came to buy corn among those that came: for the famine was in the land of Canaan."

                    Do servants, children and sons not become a people? Deuteronomy 27:9 KJV declares: "And Moses and the priests the Levites spake unto all Israel, saying, Take heed, and hearken, O Israel; this day thou art become the people of the LORD thy God."

                    I wrote that any word of the Father coming to down to servants, children or sons in the world is called a covenant. That is how come Deuteronomy 29:1 KJV declares: "These are the words of the covenant, which the LORD commanded Moses to make with the children of Israel in the land of Moab, beside the covenant which he made with them in Horeb."

                    I suggest that you make some time to discover and study more scriptures that support all what I wrote in #6.
                    Grace and peace unto you from God the Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ!

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Glorious View Post

                      Which part of my post do you need scripture in order to accept or understand? It is not always that scriptures must be quoted to supposed Bible students/scholars who are supposed to know some general things.
                      .....

                      I suggest that you make some time to discover and study more scriptures that support all what I wrote in #6.
                      We are presently discussing whether the New Covenant, predicted in Jeremiah 31 and confirmed in Hebrews 8, has been initiated, or is already in effect. Your posting contained nothing to this effect. Or else I missed it. That is why I asked for scripture.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I think that the matter of the New Covenant causes discussion because of two main perceptions.

                        The first, and easiest to deal with is the perception that the New Covenant is in effect because it is attached to the blood of Christ. The blood of our Lord Jesus accomplished a lot of things, and each one has its place in scripture and in time. The blood of Christ was shed for the remission of sins (Rom.3:25, etc). Christ's blood was also shed so that curse after Abel's blood was shed, can be lifted. That is, not only man must be recovered, but the earth too (Heb.12:24; Rom.8:19-23). Now, because man is fallen, any Covenant between God and man must be ratified by blood (Heb.9:19-22). Noah shed blood and received the Covenant of the Rainbow, Abraham shed blood and received the Covenant of Promise and Moses shed blood and received the FIRST Covenant of Law at Horeb. The New Covenant, no matter when it is initiated or instituted, MUST be purged, or ratified, in blood. And God has chosen Christ's blood to do this job. It is not the TIMING of the Covenant that demanded blood, but the Covenant itself IRRESPECTIVE of TIMING.

                        The second misconception comes because we lack knowledge as to WHY the Covenants were given. The Covenant of the Rainbow is made with "all flesh" on earth (Gen.9:17). It is a Covenant made with all men and all animals that if men will kill any thing (man or beast) that kills another innocent man, God will not cover the earth again in the waters of judgement. Men break this Covenant daily in just about every nation, and so the earth is received for a "Lake" of Fire (2nd Pet.3:7). God will keep His Covenant but still immerses the earth in judgent.

                        The Covenant of PROMISE was made with Abraham ONLY and any offspring that came from the loins of Isaac (Gen.17:7, 21:12). This Covenant PROMISES Abraham and his seed via Isaac that they will receive the Land of Canaan from "the river of Egypt" (most probably Wadi el Arish) to the Euphrates "as an everlasting possession". The part of this Covenant that the seed of Isaac must fulfill is to be circumcised.

                        430 years later, as the seed of Isaac, now numbering about 2 million, journeyed towards Canaan, God made ANOTHER Covenant with Israel. They were about to eradicate the nations that occupied this Land because their sins polluted the Land. God wanted a ritually clean people ruling that Land and a people that kept His Laws so that He could bless the Land. In the Covenant of Horeb, or Sinai, God's part was to prosper and bless Israel in the face of the surrounding nations, and Israel's part was to keep the circa 620 Laws that God gave them. If Israel broke these Laws they would pollute the Land like the Canaanites, and God would chastise them and finally eject them from the Land. The penalties of this Covenant are summarized in Leviticus Chapter 26 and Deuteronomy Chapter 28. And what is crucial is that this Covenant was made EXCLUSIVELY with Israel.

                        Now, the astute student of the Bible will, at once, see that these TWO Covenants produce a problem for God (if you will allow me such folly for the argument's sake). In the ONE, God gives His WORD that ALL those who proceed from Isaac's loins WILL get the Land of Canaan for an "everlasting possession". In the OTHER, God gives His WORD that if Israel misbehaves, He will kick them out of this Land. This is what happened, and the results of God keeping His WORD are before our eyes to day. Israel is dispersed among all nations and terrible things have happened to them according to the curses of a broken Law. The PROBLEMS facing God are TWO;
                        1. On what basis may He forgive Israel their sins? After all, a Contract is a Contract, and Israel deserved everything they got. And the Law does not provide for annulling of the penalties! The Law is built for justice. An eye for an eye ... !
                        2. Even if God can overcome the first one above, and restores Israel to their Land, Israel will just break the Law again and God will be obliged to kick them out again. How then can Israel ever have Canaan for an "everlasting possession"?
                        God solves these TWO problems thus;
                        1. He gives Israel another Lamb. This Lamb shed's His blood NOT ONLY for the Church, NOT only for Israel, but for the WHOLE WORLD (Jn.1:29; 1st Jn.2:2). In this one magnificent and very expensive move, God puts Himself in a JUDICIAL position to forgive any man his sin an sins. The work of Christ on the cross is NOT SUBJECT to any Law. It is solely subject to God's approval. Thus, if God so chooses, He can cancel Israel's worst sins. they have fallen of Christ - Israel's Lamb
                        2. The First Covenant of Law, given at Sinai, was good, spiritual and given by God. But it addressed the FLESH of men. It made demands on the FLESH and Romans Chapter 7 proves that even if a man wants to keep these Laws, his FLESH will not allow it. The "weakness" of the Law was that it required something of man that he was intrinsically against (Rom.8:7). So how does God solve this problem? He solves it by taking the SAME LAW, and instead of writing it OUTSIDE of Israelites, He writes it INTRINSICALLY - that is, he makes it an INNER ISSUE. The best way to understand this is to watch a dog. He will run around smelling trees and posts and urinate on them. Then he will see a botch and try to mate with her. Then, if another male dog is around, he will fight. And he will do this on the most crowded New York street. He has no shame! WHY? BECAUSE HE IS A DOG INTRINSICALLY! Every single time the dog goes out he will behave the same way because he possesses INTRINSICALLY the dog-nature. God's solution to the Covenant of LAW is to write the Laws INSIDE Israelites. Then they will, with almost no effort, just keep the Law. And in so doing, they will never be kicked out of Land again.
                        But ... the Christian will say, the Law has passed as a means of justification (Rom.3:20, etc.). The answer is YES! BUT .... this justification is then had by FAITH IN CHRIST! What happens to Israel IF THEY REFUSE CHRIST? It is here that the problem arises for the Christian. He does not ask this question: "what happens to a people who ARE ALREADY UNDER COVENANT if they refuse Christ???" A Covenant is a Covenant! Does God forget His Covenant just because men break it? Or does God allow men to get away with breaking the Covenant? NO! NO! NO! A Covenant is a Covenant!!! Even when Israel REFUSE Christ, the Covenants STILL STAND. The only way out of these Covenants for an Israelite was to believe in Jesus. Then all things old pass, the Jew is "buried in Christ's death" with the Law which is nailed to the cross. BUT THEY DIDN'T BELIEVE. So the Covenant of Promise for the land is not annulled (Gal.3:17), and the Covenant of Sinai is replaced by a New Covenant - NOT A NEW LAW. The New Covenant still has the LAW as its conditions, but it is written INSIDE men, not on tables of stone!

                        If the Christian can see this, there is no problem with the new Covenant. It is predicted by God in the face of Judah about to be kicked out of their Land, it is RATIFIED some 600 years later by Christ's blood, and it INSTITUTED two thousand years later when Israel and Judah are FORGIVEN, RESURRECTED, GATHERED AND UNITED IN THEIR LAND. It is made exclusively with Israel. It is a New Covenant but the conditions are not new. It is to guarantee that Israel, after being restored, are never kicked out of their Land again.


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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by shepherdsword View Post

                          It is not finished yet. Basic functionality has been restored so it is open for use.
                          After seeing at first I was also dismayed. But after having used it for an hour, I must say that it has some very good points. The Format of the answer is already displayed as it will come out. Bold is seen as bold, italics are immediate. The Format takes must less concentration.

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