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  • Always controversial: Vaccinations

    I am not sure how many of you caught this.

    Yesterday, the British Medical Journal (BMJ) published a couple reports on the original work that linked measles-mumps-rubella (MMR) vaccination to autism conducted by Wakefield in 1998. The original published report was officially retracted by the Lancet journal already last February.

    These recent reports show that instead of just poor science being done, there seems to have been outright fraud going on.

    Here's a link to a CNN report:
    http://cnn.com/video/?/video/bestoft...tism.fraud.cnn

    Some commentary:
    http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=9552

    The CNN report is also linked in the above and links to the BMJ articles are also in there (I put them here too).
    http://www.bmj.com/content/342/bmj.c7452
    http://www.bmj.com/content/342/bmj.c5347.full


    I know doctors have been saying for years that there is no connection, but for some reason I doubt this will even convince the Jenny McCarthy's out there.
    Do not say, “Why were the old days better than these?” For it is not wise to ask such questions.
    Ecc 7:10

    John777 exists to me only in quoted form.



  • #2
    Re: Always controversial: Vaccinations

    You mean that....

    But I thought vaccination....

    Proof that when you tell a big enough lie long enough, some people will continue to believe regardless of the evidence.

    I mean, the gall of these scientists...

    What's next? You going to tell me that global warming data was cooked, too???

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Always controversial: Vaccinations

      Originally posted by RabbiKnife View Post
      Proof that when you tell a big enough lie long enough, some people will continue to believe regardless of the evidence.
      I think it would be more accurate to say that if people make an emotional attachment to a position evidence becomes superfluous. As the parent of a child with autism there is no position more emotional than someone dangling the prospect of an easy scapegoat and a quick fix for your child's condition. It's certainly ridiculous to think there is a link between vaccines and autism, but given that these lies are propagated by those who prey on the desperation of parents it is, at least, understandable that people fall for this baloney.




      Lurker
      "The sleep of reason produces monsters" --Francisco Goya

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      • #4
        Re: Always controversial: Vaccinations

        My youngest daughter is autistic. I've never been one to tell people not to have their children vaccinated. That being said, I do have a vaccination story. When we went in for her 3 month visit the nurse laid out 7.... SEVEN vaccinations for my daughter (not all were shots, some were oral). I verbalized to the nurse that I felt the number was excessive because my older kids had never been given more than 3 in one visit. This nurse assured me that, "This was the way it is done now." Kimberly had a bit of a reaction but nothing we had to take her to the hospital for or anything. It wasn't until my former pastor's wife (who also has an autistic child) mentioned that many parents of children with autism were questioning some vaccinations that I recalled the incident. Remember, it was parents that first began talking to each other about this, this particular researcher merely took advantage of that.

        So, here's my personal take. If and when my children begin having kids of their own (oldest has been married for 3 years), I will advise them to limit the number of vaccines that are administered in one visit and would also encourage them to delay certain vaccines until over 2, which was the way it was back when I was a kid. We got them before we started school. I don't think that's too much for a parent to be allowed nor do I think it's unreasonable.

        And btw, this was one flawed study. The occurrence of autism has risen more than 600%. Better diagnosis can account for some of that but there's more there than meets the eye. More research needs to be done.
        II Timothy 2:15
        Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
        Read My Testimony sigpic Visit Our Website

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        • #5
          Re: Always controversial: Vaccinations

          In the words of my family's pediatrician: "Take a look at the vaccination schedule in the USA and then compare that to the rest of the world". The US vaccination schedule is FAR more aggressive than any other nation. Now there's talk of putting Gardasil on the schedule at only a few weeks of age. Not only that, but the doctors advising on that vaccination schedule can easily be shown to have conflicts of interest as they get their research funding from big-pharma. Europe tends to be a little more careful about that kind of thing.

          Now, I'm not offering that as evidence that MMR vaccines cause autism, but rather that the media, the childless public, and especially the government should shut their yaps, back off, and let parents make informed decisions in the best interests of their child. If that involves delaying a vaccination (or even abstaining from one), then that decision should be respected and not ridiculed.

          Being socially connected to a few new parents, I'm shocked at the sheer malice directed at them for wanting to delay vaccination by a couple of months.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Always controversial: Vaccinations

            Originally posted by Studyin'2Show View Post
            And btw, this was one flawed study.
            Just on this point. This was "The Report" that kicked off the whole MMR/autism scare. It's not just one flawed study. Have there been any other independent studies? Everything I have read on the issue always seems to go back to this particular study.
            Do not say, “Why were the old days better than these?” For it is not wise to ask such questions.
            Ecc 7:10

            John777 exists to me only in quoted form.


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            • #7
              Re: Always controversial: Vaccinations

              Originally posted by teddyv View Post
              Just on this point. This was "The Report" that kicked off the whole MMR/autism scare. It's not just one flawed study. Have there been any other independent studies? Everything I have read on the issue always seems to go back to this particular study.
              Talk to pediatric SLPs (speech language pathologists). They've been linking hyper-aggressive vaccination schedules to developmental disorders (not just autism) for over a decade.

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              • #8
                This is a hot topic for me...I have seen just in my town alone, two young adults brained damage as toddlers in wheelchair because of the MMR vaccination. They were normal until they got the shots. One young lady had a severe seizure disorder too. Its not like I get around alot either so it made me wonder how many more just in our town alone? Its pretty scary even though they say these are rare side effects...I think ALL side effects should be eliminated before having the public even take shots...but I know that won't ever happen. Ever one of those tell you that death could result from the vaccination...or permanent damage.

                I was pregnant at the time too with my son and this lady begged me to not let them give my child the MMR. She even had some book about it she wanted me to read. I have done the research and while I started out getting my son his shots due to the pressure of the nurse...they put you under alot of pressure too!...I did make them space them out...eventually I stopped allowing him to have any shots at all. When you do your own research on the net its just impossible to sort through what is true...and I am sorry but I just don't trust the pharmacy companies...to seeing websites of dead babies that died from these shots...how can any parent even begin to sort it all out? Then we hear of deaths that could have been prevented with the vaccinations. Damn if you do...damned if you don't. You honest feel like you are putting your child's life at risk...either way you go. And it feels horrible....

                Its like who do you believe? The parents of hurt or dead children or the big drug companies?

                I finally decided...as wacky at it will sound and yes I do take him to the doctor when he gets sick...to put this in God's hand...the whole vaccination thing. My son has had allergic reactions to different kinds of medication...his system is very sensitive. blah. I just hate this whole thing..I really do.

                And it makes no sense to me how parent after parent after parent has said their child was fine until they got the MMR. Are they all lying or what?

                At any rate yes the vaccines are out of control and they are just putting way, way too much into tiny bodies at one time. I don't understand their reasoning for that at all...how they can even think that is ok. I have heard that part of the reason they give so many at once is because they are afraid if they break them up...just giving the child two at one time then the parents having to come back several more times, the parents won't do it so they would rather overload the child thinking they are protecting them just in case the parents don't bring them back. We are going to have alot of sick kids giving them so much like this.

                And no one has answered the question as to WHY there has been such a huge increase in autism?

                BTW at least one good thing came out of this...they removed the mercury from the vaccinations. Talk about one of the most stupidest things I ever heard. Why in the world would you put a POISON in a vaccination?

                I heard this doctor btw way some time ago when his study was first debunked...I felt sorry for him...I think he was very sincere...he is being heavily hounded and persecuted And frankly I am not convinced his study was falsified. He has appeared on TV since this several times talking about this. One person was blaming him for the deaths of four children that died from something a vaccine could have prevented but their parents didn't get the shots out of fear that he supposedly started.

                But what about all those toddlers that didn't die or get brain damage because they didn't get the vaccinations?
                "People do not drift toward holiness. Apart from grace-driven effort, people do not gravitate toward godliness, prayer, obedience to Scripture, faith, and delight in the Lord. We drift toward compromise and call it tolerance; We drift toward disobedience and call it freedom; We drift toward superstition and call it faith. We cherish the indiscipline of lost self-control and call it relaxation; we slouch toward prayerlessness and delude ourselves into thinking we have escaped legalism; we slide toward godlessness and convince ourselves we have been liberated?" - D A Carson

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                • #9
                  Re: Always controversial: Vaccinations

                  Originally posted by HisLeast View Post
                  Talk to pediatric SLPs (speech language pathologists). They've been linking hyper-aggressive vaccination schedules to developmental disorders (not just autism) for over a decade.
                  I would like to list the things my son was diagnosed as having when he was little..after being on schedule for his shots too byw.

                  ADHD
                  ODD
                  learning disability
                  delays in his fine and gross motor skills
                  Sensory integration disorder
                  Food and air born allergies.
                  auditory processing disorder
                  depression
                  anxiety

                  He was sick alot..with allergy related type of illnesses, sinus infection, Bronchitis, chronic ear infections and had to take allergy shots once a week for several years plus be on a special diet to avoid the foods he was allergic too.

                  He also got extremely hyper when having anything with yeast on red dye 40 in it which is in nearly everything.

                  After stopping the vaccinations his system has calmed down gradually over the years...though his doctor has to still be very careful with what medication to give him when he is sick due too him having allergic reactions to them. We stopped the allergy shots too years ago because they got where they didn't seem to be helping.

                  Now I also have allergies and a learning disability and yes he could have inherited those from me...but no one else in my family has a learning disability. So who did I inherit it from? The depression and anxiety were caused by his dad...that is another story.

                  All my son is dx with now is ADHD and an anxiety disorder and no longer considered LD because he got the help he needed in school and while he started out a really slow learner...he is now making mostly A's in school which I am thrilled about. He still struggles with his social skills but I am sure in time that will be ok.

                  Now whether any of this is connected to the vaccinations..I don't know. I wouldn't even know about proving it either. All I know is vaccination scare the daylights out of me.
                  "People do not drift toward holiness. Apart from grace-driven effort, people do not gravitate toward godliness, prayer, obedience to Scripture, faith, and delight in the Lord. We drift toward compromise and call it tolerance; We drift toward disobedience and call it freedom; We drift toward superstition and call it faith. We cherish the indiscipline of lost self-control and call it relaxation; we slouch toward prayerlessness and delude ourselves into thinking we have escaped legalism; we slide toward godlessness and convince ourselves we have been liberated?" - D A Carson

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Always controversial: Vaccinations

                    Originally posted by moonglow View Post
                    BTW at least one good thing came out of this...they removed the mercury from the vaccinations. Talk about one of the most stupidest things I ever heard. Why in the world would you put a POISON in a vaccination?
                    It was a mercury compound, thimerosol (sp), not elemental mercury.

                    I heard this doctor btw way some time ago when his study was first debunked...I felt sorry for him...I think he was very sincere...he is being heavily hounded and persecuted And frankly I am not convinced his study was falsified. He has appeared on TV since this several times talking about this. One person was blaming him for the deaths of four children that died from something a vaccine could have prevented but their parents didn't get the shots out of fear that he supposedly started.
                    By the recent accounts this doctor actively changed dates of symptom occurrence with respect to the actual vaccination date (i.e. symptoms of autism actually occurred months after the jab, but was changed to days or weeks).

                    But what about all those toddlers that didn't die or get brain damage because they didn't get the vaccinations?
                    Herd immunity. They don't get it necessarily because the bulk of the population do get there vaccinations and therefore limit any spread amongst the population.
                    Do not say, “Why were the old days better than these?” For it is not wise to ask such questions.
                    Ecc 7:10

                    John777 exists to me only in quoted form.


                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Always controversial: Vaccinations

                      So Teddy, what exactly is YOUR stance on this issue?
                      .......................John 3:16.........................

                      My testimony:http://bibleforums.org/forum/showthread.php?t=112657I hope that it inspires one and all

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                      • #12
                        Re: Always controversial: Vaccinations

                        In one of my special ed classes, we had discussed this. Someone had said she had read about the mercury. There are 2 types of mercury, one that is harmful and one that isn't. I'm not sure of the source, she didnt' say. But the teacher also had confirmed that too. And others too. But I wonder if people know that also when they say that the vaccs are bad due to the mercury.
                        sigpic

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                        • #13
                          Re: Always controversial: Vaccinations

                          Originally posted by baxpack7 View Post
                          So Teddy, what exactly is YOUR stance on this issue?
                          In my case, I believe vaccinations are valuable and have a far greater benefit to society than the cost of the rare instances of a bad reaction. Of course down at the personal level, that is very cold comfort to the family that has seen a family member suffer due to a known or possible side-effect of a vaccination round. For my family, we are following the vaccination schedule for our children so you might say I am putting my money where my mouth is.

                          In the specific case of MMR/autism link I agree with the main medical stance that there is no causation/correlation. As HisLeast pointed out there may be some possible unforeseen deleterious effects that may be associated with an overly aggressive vaccination schedule. As I respect his opinions greatly and know he does not make assertions lightly or unsupportedly I will consider them. Trying to find the truth of the matter seems greatly obscured by the incredible fear-mongering out there.
                          Do not say, “Why were the old days better than these?” For it is not wise to ask such questions.
                          Ecc 7:10

                          John777 exists to me only in quoted form.


                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Always controversial: Vaccinations

                            Originally posted by teddyv View Post
                            In my case, I believe vaccinations are valuable and have a far greater benefit to society than the cost of the rare instances of a bad reaction. Of course down at the personal level, that is very cold comfort to the family that has seen a family member suffer due to a known or possible side-effect of a vaccination round. For my family, we are following the vaccination schedule for our children so you might say I am putting my money where my mouth is.

                            In the specific case of MMR/autism link I agree with the main medical stance that there is no causation/correlation. As HisLeast pointed out there may be some possible unforeseen deleterious effects that may be associated with an overly aggressive vaccination schedule. As I respect his opinions greatly and know he does not make assertions lightly or unsupportedly I will consider them. Trying to find the truth of the matter seems greatly obscured by the incredible fear-mongering out there.
                            He's my hubby so he's a parent of a child with autism too. I've never told anyone not to get vaccines BUT why give a 3 month old Gardisil which is to prevent something they MAY get as adults? When we were kids (I'm 43, hubby is 46) we didn't have to get MOST of our shots until about 4 or 5 when we were getting ready to go to school. Our society has changed. With most household's consisting of two parents who work full time, newborns are being sent to nursery schools. Most nursery schools require children to be vaccinated. Hence the very, very aggressive vaccination schedule we have here in the U.S.

                            Unfortunately, no one advised me about these things back in 2000 when my youngest was born. I was a stay-st-home mom at the time and would have MOST DEFINITELY delayed her shots until she'd had time for her brain functions to develop/ There would have been absolutely no harm in that and she would not have hurt the population in any way had I done that. As I stated in my earlier post, autism has risen MORE THAN 600% in the last few decades. I'd like more earnest studies to find out why.
                            II Timothy 2:15
                            Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
                            Read My Testimony sigpic Visit Our Website

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Always controversial: Vaccinations

                              Originally posted by Studyin'2Show View Post
                              He's my hubby so he's a parent of a child with autism too. I've never told anyone not to get vaccines BUT why give a 3 month old Gardisil which is to prevent something they MAY get as adults? When we were kids (I'm 43, hubby is 46) we didn't have to get MOST of our shots until about 4 or 5 when we were getting ready to go to school. Our society has changed. With most household's consisting of two parents who work full time, newborns are being sent to nursery schools. Most nursery schools require children to be vaccinated. Hence the very, very aggressive vaccination schedule we have here in the U.S.
                              The main point of the OP of course was about the MMR/autism link, not really about the other vaccinations. As far as Gardisil, I have not heard of that being pondered up here, but I may check on it.

                              Unfortunately, no one advised me about these things back in 2000 when my youngest was born. I was a stay-st-home mom at the time and would have MOST DEFINITELY delayed her shots until she'd had time for her brain functions to develop/ There would have been absolutely no harm in that and she would not have hurt the population in any way had I done that.
                              Are you not making the assumption that the vaccination (whichever one it was) was indeed the culprit? My nephew has fairly severe Tourette's syndrome which upon hindsight was noticeable when he was around one year old (not specifically diagnosable as such, but something was definitely a bit off). I don't know if that's comparable really or not, just throwing it out there.

                              As I stated in my earlier post, autism has risen MORE THAN 600% in the last few decades. I'd like more earnest studies to find out why.
                              I know you mentioned diagnoses are definitely up, probably due to the definitions as such outlined in DSM IV. I have heard some initial additions going into DSM V make it sound like eventually we all be diagnosable with some sort of disorder. There could be other environmental factors. The Canadian government took a fairly major step in banning bisphenol-A from all plastics due to still early research that it can have negative effects on young children (most baby bottles and other related plastic items typically contained BPA).
                              Do not say, “Why were the old days better than these?” For it is not wise to ask such questions.
                              Ecc 7:10

                              John777 exists to me only in quoted form.


                              Comment

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