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  • #16
    Re: Abortion...please help with this argument

    Originally posted by Saved7 View Post
    Umm, from MY personal experience, I've never known a woman who got an abortion due to poisoning, but due to the fact that she was out there sleeping around and didn't want to suffer the consquences. And yes, I know a lot of women who had abortions and the vast majority of them were poor, and every last one of them simply didn't want to raise a child but they sure didn't mind sleeping around...myself included. So much for social injustices; it has more to do with the sin of fornication and selfishness than it does anything else. And as far as conservatives who don't believe in injustices...that's just a smear campaign, I believe there are a lot of social injustices, but that does not negate ones responsibility to keep their legs closed if they don't want to have a baby. The "social injustices" argument simply won't hold water before God, it's about sin.
    There are plenty of studies which show that Sanger's pills have been used to poison unknowing pregnant women. Here is one site:

    http://thepillkills.org/history.php

    quote:

    ''The local doctor in charge of the study tells Pincus that the pill causes "too many side reactions to be generally acceptable." However, Pincus and Rock dismiss her findings and do not investigate what causes the side effects, nor do they investigate the cause of death for three women who die during the trials.''

    Abortion is used to limit births among minorities:

    http://www.denverpost.com/recommended/ci_15212441

    quote:

    ''The control of reproduction remained the primary goal of eugenics in order to improve the human gene pool. Throughout its existence Planned Parenthood has been a key tool to reduce or eliminate births among blacks, other minorities and the disabled.''

    also, http://www.abort73.com/abortion/abortion_and_race/

    quote:

    ''The majority of Planned Parenthood's abortion clinics are located in communities with minority populations that exceed the city or state averages. Is this a bizarre coincidence, or is it merely an extension of the eugenic principles that seem to have driven Planned Parenthood's founder, Margaret Sanger, a founder who is documented as saying, "We do not want the word to go out that we want to exterminate the Negro population."


    Planned Parenthood's racist roots:

    http://www.abort73.com/abortion/plan..._racist_roots/

    quote:

    ''During her lifetime, Margaret Sanger publicly urged the elimination of "human weeds", the "cessation of charity", and the sterilization of "genetically inferior races." She championed the "science" of eugenics, ridiculed God and marriage, and founded Planned Parenthood, which has grown to become the largest abortion-provider in America.''


    [abortion] has more to do with the sin of fornication and selfishness
    Can you back that up with any studies that confirm your belief?

    Lastly, the belief that there is no racial injustice in this society is without basis as the idea that abortion is racialist genocide is one endorsed by the conservative WND:

    http://www.wnd.com/index.php?pageId=57682

    Even ultra conservative supreme court justice Clarence Thomas has openly declared this to be true. Therefore, such an idea is not slander.

    Comment


    • #17
      Re: Abortion...please help with this argument

      There are plenty of studies which show that Sanger's pills have been used to poison unknowing pregnant women. Here is one site:
      You're talking about the pill as poison? Oy.

      Regardless, they're not unknowing. No one doesn't know they're on the pill.


      Even ultra conservative supreme court justice Clarence Thomas has openly declared this to be true. Therefore, such an idea is not slander.
      Eh?

      Comment


      • #18
        Re: Abortion...please help with this argument


        Regardless, they're not unknowing. No one doesn't know they're on the pill.


        But in those trials, no one knew the pills were poisonous.

        Comment


        • #19
          Re: Abortion...please help with this argument

          Originally posted by howszat View Post

          Regardless, they're not unknowing. No one doesn't know they're on the pill.


          But in those trials, no one knew the pills were poisonous.
          They're not poisonous. But regardless, that's the nature of drug trials. People sign up for those too you know.

          Comment


          • #20
            Re: Abortion...please help with this argument

            Originally posted by Cornflake View Post
            They're not poisonous. But regardless, that's the nature of drug trials. People sign up for those too you know.
            But these women did NOT consent:

            http://movies.msn.com/movies/movie/the-pill.2/

            quote:

            Archival footage and commentary from leading scientists is juxtaposed with the stories of Puerto Rican women who received test doses without their consent

            Comment


            • #21
              Re: Abortion...please help with this argument

              Originally posted by howszat View Post
              But these women did NOT consent:

              http://movies.msn.com/movies/movie/the-pill.2/

              quote:

              Archival footage and commentary from leading scientists is juxtaposed with the stories of Puerto Rican women who received test doses without their consent
              I had assumed it was a standard trial, in which no one actually knows if they're getting doses of medication, though it wouldn't be historically so unusual to be testing things on people without their consent God knows. I just went and read about it - they knew they were getting a pill to prevent pregnancy, so it's not as if they were experimented on completely without their knowledge, though they didn't know it was experimental. Which is obviously wrong, but not unusual for the time. That's the pill though, not abortion, I dunno how we got here, heh.

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: Abortion...please help with this argument

                Originally posted by peacewithin View Post
                I believe abortion is murder, it's wrong. I have a friend who I get into an argument over, (what else) politics every time we talk it seems. She asks, is abortion worse than a baby being born that is going to be abused or unwanted and mistreated his/her whole life?
                I tell her that its Godís will whatever happens and not for us to decide what is right or wrong? It makes me sick to my soul when I hear of a child being hurt or going hungry but I still believe itís not our place to decide about a human life whether it lives or dies. Just like capital punishment. All I can say about that is I wouldnít want to be in the position of having to decide whether a serious crime should be put to death or not. Just like that woman who put her baby in the microwave.
                Iím just so tired of this argument with her.
                That baby saved from abortion may end up in an abusive home, they may have a wonderful life. We don't know, and we have no right to make a life or death decision for someone else based on a 'could be'. God may bring that baby through the storm or he may not, but he has plans for that child, and his plans are perfect. We can't avoid suffering, but God knows how to take the bad and use it for good. That baby could end up in an abused home, rescued, then become an advocate for abused children. Good or bad, everyone has a right to create a story and share it.

                ...that would be my argument
                Romans 8:11

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: Abortion...please help with this argument

                  Thank you all for your great replies to my post. That will give me more to come back with if we get into this argument again which I hope we don't....
                  There is nothing like hearing the prayer of a little child

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: Abortion...please help with this argument

                    I read this thread and some issues spring to mind...

                    I wonder how many Christians really have any idea what might drive young girls, young women and even some precious older women to sleep around, experience heartbreak after heartbreak, to be used and abused time and again then to be thrown away like garbage? Then to abort their own innocent children when they find themselves with an unplanned unwanted pregnancy? Do they seriously have any clue how desperate and broken a heart might have to be to step into and live that sort of lifestyle? No self-respect, no self worth, no sense of unconditional love in relationships... Do many Christians have any idea how utterly deceived and lost these women have to be? The truth is women who live like this are dying on the inside and usually all the Pharisees can do is line up with their stones and condemnation! I think of this...once, long long ago, who really did get to cast the first stone?...

                    What about women who are married and have abortions for all manner of reasons?...though none of them justified...some canít cope with the children they already have...some are in abusive situations...some are hooked on drugs and alcohol...some are filled with so much fear they just donít know where else to turn...theyíre actually not fornicators who should just Ďkeep their legs closedí...they are broken women lost in sin who have no idea what theyíre truly doing and have no idea how much they are damaging themselves never mind the precious life they are condemning to death...so many are convinced and deceived into believing that their unborn child is not even a human being yet...horrendous and 100 percent wrong...but deception is real! Yet Jesus hung on a cross and shed His Own blood for them and prayed to the Father to forgive...for they know not what they do...

                    Is fornication, adultery, promiscuity and so on OK in the eyes of God? Never! Is it sin?...of course it is! Is it an offence against the beauty, purity and holiness of our God?...absolutely! But then...sinners sin! Always...sinners will sin! It actually never ceases to amaze me how so many Christians seem to forget this...how can a sinner behave righteously when their very nature screams for them to break Godís law and indulge in the lust of the eyes and the lusts of the flesh?! Seriously...sinners canít not sin! Are some very much more blatant in their sin than otherís...sure...but you break one law and youíve broken them all...it only takes one sin to face an eternity in hell...the entire human race...you...me...us...we all faced the death sentence and a Christless eternity because of our sin. That fact was established a very very long time ago...wouldnít it be awesome if the Body of Christ could just get over that fact, accept that sinners canít not sin and then get with Godís program of seeking and saving the lost. Of loving others into Godís kingdom. Itís Godís goodness that leads man to repentance...Isnít it true that all of us are and will always be just as much in need of the grace and mercy of God as the worst sinner still lost in utter darkness.

                    When will so very many Christians realise that criticism and condemnation will NEVER draw someone out of a life of sin and immorality...and if anyone reading this has lived or is living such a lifestyle and feels as if they are perhaps beyond redemption, they must...they really must...hear the truth that their Heavenly Father loves them so much He gave the life of His Own Son that they could be saved and set free from sin and condemnation. That they can be healed and delivered from their pain and rejection and guilt. That there is a better way...the Way of the Saviour. That they can be washed whiter than snow and that God will cast their sin as far as the east is from the west....if they will but come in true repentance and humility and receive His love and forgiveness.

                    Oh thereís POWER in the Good News folks...power to transform lives and communities and nations...letís get our eyes and our hearts on the Good News huh!...the absolute, amazing and infinite goodness of our God Who comes to seek and to save that which is lost and to give life and life more abundantly!

                    We are all wretched in Godís eyes without the covering blood of the Saviour...every last one of us...even our righteous acts were like filthy rags in His sight...how radically might our world change when we all get with pursuing Godís heart of love and compassion for the lost...and leading many to repentance and restoration with the Father. From the least to the very worst of sinners itís about the GOOD NEWS!!

                    Itís so awesome to think of the Good News of Salvation from Isaiah 61:1-3...
                    ďThe Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon Me, Because the LORD has anointed Me to preach GOOD tidings to the poor; He has sent Me to heal the broken-hearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to those who are bound; to proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all who mourn, to console those who mourn in Zion, to give them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they may be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that He may be glorified.Ē

                    THAT HE MAY BE GLORIFIED!! Now thatís where itís at!!

                    Treasured

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: Abortion...please help with this argument

                      they knew they were getting a pill to prevent pregnancy, so it's not as if they were experimented on completely without their knowledge, though they didn't know it was experimental. Which is obviously wrong, but not unusual for the time.

                      That is incorrect as most of these were pregnant women seeking health care, not women seeking pregnancy prevention. This was not medical practice but attempted genocide. This is a subject that I have researched and discussed at length in the past and I seriously doubt that you are aware of the full ramifications of forced sterilization and abortion genocide in Puerto Rico. Here is a full essay on the subject:


                      http://www.puertorico.com/forums/his...erto-rico.html

                      This was not a 'standard trial' where the patient has full knowledge of the procedures to be followed and gives informed consent. There is virtually no difference between this genocidal program and the actions of the Nazis - much of it paid for by tax dollars.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: Abortion...please help with this argument

                        Originally posted by howszat View Post
                        they knew they were getting a pill to prevent pregnancy, so it's not as if they were experimented on completely without their knowledge, though they didn't know it was experimental. Which is obviously wrong, but not unusual for the time.

                        That is incorrect as most of these were pregnant women seeking health care, not women seeking pregnancy prevention. This was not medical practice but attempted genocide. This is a subject that I have researched and discussed at length in the past and I seriously doubt that you are aware of the full ramifications of forced sterilization and abortion genocide in Puerto Rico. Here is a full essay on the subject:


                        http://www.puertorico.com/forums/his...erto-rico.html

                        This was not a 'standard trial' where the patient has full knowledge of the procedures to be followed and gives informed consent. There is virtually no difference between this genocidal program and the actions of the Nazis - much of it paid for by tax dollars.
                        Godwin in 25 posts? Oy. Seriously?

                        Ok, I just looked again. Everything I've read says the same thing. They didn't know it was experimental, but they were told they were taking a pill to prevent pregnancy.

                        We're talking about the pill, which doesn't sterilize anyone... huh? No, it was not what is now a standard trial, as I said - at the time however, it was.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: Abortion...please help with this argument

                          Originally posted by Cornflake View Post
                          Godwin in 25 posts? Oy. Seriously?
                          Actually it only took 10 posts. But then again, we are talking about Margaret Sanger and eugenics, so the comparisons are apropos. It doesn't really meet Godwin's criteria.
                          In Christ,

                          -- Rev

                          ďTo preserve the government we must also preserve morals. Morality rests on religion; if you destroy the foundation, the superstructure must fall. When the public mind becomes vitiated and corrupt, laws are a nullity and constitutions are waste paper.Ē Ė Daniel Webster, 4th of July, 1800, Oration at Hanover, N.H.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Re: Abortion...please help with this argument

                            Originally posted by RevLogos View Post
                            Actually it only took 10 posts. But then again, we are talking about Margaret Sanger and eugenics, so the comparisons are apropos. It doesn't really meet Godwin's criteria.
                            Unless I missed when Sanger forcefully marched millions of people to their deaths and didn't just say bad things, I don't think the comparisons are apropos, no. That's kind of the point of Godwin; the people going there mostly think it's apt.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Re: Abortion...please help with this argument

                              they were told they were taking a pill to prevent pregnancy
                              Look again as it was far more than just government sponsored deceit regarding pregnancy prevention: ''The targeted women were often unaware of the irreversibility of sterilization and pressure was put on them to accept the operation in exchange for longer hospital stays after childbirth.'' These pregnant women were at these clinics for medical treatment and were pressured into being surgically sterilized. "This deceit was in no way limited to a few cases, as the statistics of young women sterilized illustrate. 2/3 between the ages of 20-29, 92% before the age of 35, with the average standing at the ripe old age of 26." This was a massive campaign which entailed abortion and forced sterilization ... This program was operated in an open fashion and a recruitment campaign was admitted to and it was said that 10,000-12,000 births were prevented, with the goal of 100% of childbearing age women to be sterilized ''.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Re: Abortion...please help with this argument

                                Originally posted by Cornflake View Post
                                Unless I missed when Sanger forcefully marched millions of people to their deaths and didn't just say bad things, I don't think the comparisons are apropos, no. That's kind of the point of Godwin; the people going there mostly think it's apt.
                                The underlying philosophy is the same: kill those who for whatever reason, are undesirable; it always leads to death. To put it in perspective, the US aborts people at about the same rate as the Nazis killed their undesirables, about a million a year. The Nazis only managed to kill about 6 million people before they were stopped. The US has aborted over 50 million since Roe v. Wade.
                                In Christ,

                                -- Rev

                                ďTo preserve the government we must also preserve morals. Morality rests on religion; if you destroy the foundation, the superstructure must fall. When the public mind becomes vitiated and corrupt, laws are a nullity and constitutions are waste paper.Ē Ė Daniel Webster, 4th of July, 1800, Oration at Hanover, N.H.

                                Comment

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