Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

We are becoming reprobate as a nation. Many already are there.

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #91
    Re: We are becoming reprobate as a nation. Many already are there.

    Originally posted by Aviyah View Post
    Welfare and charities do not impede this.
    What of the prodigal son who didn't repent till there was "no one to help him"? Had he been alive today, the government would have seen to it he did not have to feed the pigs. Welfare has been a destructive force IMO and has been helpful. But I see it as humanism rather than kingdom building. The government does not help people so much as keep them dependent. For instance, a single mother may get $400 a month. But if she takes a job and makes $400 for the month, they take away $200 from her. They discourage her from working. And the children see it. If she has another child, she gets more money. And so on. I know this by personal experience.

    And that law is your "conscience bearing witness" to "what is plain" and "written on our hearts." He's saying that he wouldn't have understood sin if he had no means of knowing right from wrong, which is why he later explains how this is also true for Gentiles who were not given Moses. Nothing in Romans 1 negates the fact that everyone is held accountable, as all men are without excuse, based on God-given instinct to every human being.

    So arguing with someone over whether they are sinning isn't productive because he/she is just being willfully resistant to their conscience. If they are sinning, then preaching the judgment of God convicts them when allowed by the Holy Spirit. Say murder is a sin, of course, but you can't persuade someone to think they are sinning. They already know.
    OK. There were things that I found out were sin after I got saved that I never knew were sin before.

    But they didn't argue with people that they were sins, is my point. The objective is not to convince people that "adultery" is a sin, but to use it as a charge bringing the wrath of God.
    Ah! Now I understand what you are saying. Shoot, I don't argue with unbelievers about what sin is either. No need. I can't convince them of that. I do however, point it out as led by the Holy Spirit. Here's an example of what I mean by that....

    My former roommates brother came to visit he and I. As we were getting ready for church, he began to ask us about God. He pointed to the man across the street and said "I am as good as he is. Why shouldn't I get into heaven". We simply asked him about sin. "Have you ever lied?" He responded "yes". After that we asked what happened to his sin? Where did it go? We used examples like murder. If a man committed murder, how much good would he have to do to no longer be a murderer? As he began to ponder our questions, fear fell on him. I saw his face turn white as conviction gripped his soul. Then we began to preach the grace of our Lord Jesus to him and he got saved. Not once did we argue with him about sin. We just found where God dealing with him.

    The prophets named sins. We should too. Of course, arguing with fellow believers is different than dealing with the lost.

    I was saved through the preaching of Paul Washer, who isn't exactly known for sugar-coating the gospel. Yet I've never heard him slander another believer or be insulting in order to emphasize his message. You can be bold about the judgment of God (and His mercy) without snide remarks or put-downs which come from self-righteousness and not love. Everyone knows what I mean and whether their behavior measures up or not.
    Sure. Yet, there are times for such remarks. When Nicodemus came to Jesus, Jesus said "you don't know this, yet you claim to be a teacher of Isreal".

    I think you have confused my passion for proper place of government and church and speaking with believers (for they can be convinced with scripture even with difficult arguments), as the same thing to be used when speaking with unbelievers. I think the two are to be treated completely different. I also think there is a difference in plowing a hard ground and recognizing a bruised reed or a flickering wick. I also think there is a time to rebuke strongly those that seem to pretend to be believers but are not. They deserve to be exposed just as Jesus exposed them for such people can do great harm. Jesus spoke in many ways, often very gentle. Other times not so much. To say believers must speak in one way only doesn't seem wise, nor biblical to me.
    Matt 9:13
    13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
    NASU

    Comment


    • #92
      Re: We are becoming reprobate as a nation. Many already are there.

      Originally posted by Aviyah View Post
      But they didn't argue with people that they were sins, is my point. The objective is not to convince people that "adultery" is a sin, but to use it as a charge bringing the wrath of God.
      I thought this point was so good, it deserved to be repeated. So everyone, please read this quote from Aviyah.
      Matt 9:13
      13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
      NASU

      Comment


      • #93
        Re: We are becoming reprobate as a nation. Many already are there.

        Originally posted by Brother Mark View Post
        The government does not help people so much as keep them dependent. For instance, a single mother may get $400 a month. But if she takes a job and makes $400 for the month, they take away $200 from her. They discourage her from working.
        The solution is to streamline the transition process for those people on the threshold, not do away with the system entirely. People become dependent on the aid provided by nonprofits and churches also. Would you get rid of their programs too? I view this as a "walk two miles" or "give two coats" situation, while still being "clever as serpents" to identify people who are just taking advantage of us and don't need the help.

        For clarity I'm 100% in agreement about the problems with financial aid, but only saying this is not unique to the government. There is a lot of good synergy between business and public and religious groups when trying to provide affordable housing or food, education, etc. to the poor. I don't think they should view each other as enemies when trying to achieve a common goal.

        Ah! Now I understand what you are saying. Shoot, I don't argue with unbelievers about what sin is either. No need. I can't convince them of that. I do however, point it out as led by the Holy Spirit. Here's an example of what I mean by that....
        Gotcha, I had a feeling we're on the same page but just using different phrasing. That situation you gave is a good example.
        我们有这盼望,就像灵魂的锚,又稳当又坚固,通过幔子直进到里面。
        This hope we have as an anchor of the soul, a hope both sure and reliable...
        (Hebrews 6:19 CNV / NASB)

        Comment


        • #94
          Re: We are becoming reprobate as a nation. Many already are there.

          Originally posted by Aviyah View Post
          The solution is to streamline the transition process for those people on the threshold, not do away with the system entirely. People become dependent on the aid provided by nonprofits and churches also. Would you get rid of their programs too? I view this as a "walk two miles" or "give two coats" situation, while still being "clever as serpents" to identify people who are just taking advantage of us and don't need the help.

          For clarity I'm 100% in agreement about the problems with financial aid, but only saying this is not unique to the government. There is a lot of good synergy between business and public and religious groups when trying to provide affordable housing or food, education, etc. to the poor. I don't think they should view each other as enemies when trying to achieve a common goal.
          Churches giving through charity (both individually and as a group) is a means to spread the gospel and to alleviate suffering. I think this is exactly what Jesus is teaching when he speaks about the unjust steward. He tell us that if we help those in need, they will welcome us to eternal dwellings! That is powerful in my opinion. It means they get saved. Job 29 talks about how the jaws of the wicked are broken when we give to those in need. The picture I get from that is one of a wolf or lion with a lamb in its mouth. We break the jaws and set the little lamb free. IMO, we give way to much to ourselves though life centers, buildings, etc. and way to little to the poor. And when we do give it, we often put too many burdens on them.

          However, churches have the Holy Spirit and hopefully, wisdom to go with Him. That shoud enable them to determine if they are dealing with a son like the prodigal and one who should be left alone for a while... .till he comes to his senses. This saves lives. Governments do not care about such things.

          I am all for Christian charity through non-profits, churches, individually, etc. to the extreme. For in this they are following the heart of Christ both for Luke 16, and the sermon on the mount, as well as Paul's teachings about giving to the poor and Job 29 and on and on. However, government involvement does not bring with it accountability nor the gospel. I would do away with much of the government programs and have churches pick up the slack, even to the point of great cost to the church. Know someone that can't afford healthcare? Lets buy their insurance for them. Let's rent them a home, and so on.

          Jesus preached those things in Matthew 5 to believers that followed him. He did not ever one time instruct government to do such a thing. He did tell those in government (soldiers) to do these things and to be just. Romans 13 gives a strong case for what God intended for government. I would add to that what God told Noah concerning man and the shedding of blood after the flood.

          Would I dismantle charities or non-profits? No way! They are fulling the calling of God and sending people to do the work through relationships. Also, they do not force anyone to give nor do they take from anyone unwilling to give. If they are just mailing a check and that is all, then I don't think they would be effective for the kingdom. In my opinion, I think God draws a clear contrast between the role of believers and the church and our duties and the duties of government. Imagine how much more good we could do as believers if government left that money for us to distribute!!!

          I understand that correlation does not mean causality. But there is a reason, IMO, the party that is most anti-God (and I think both parties are against God in some way) is also the most pro-government. I don't think it is an accident. The mantra seems to be "in government we trust" because government can fix many problems. I think it has hurt family as did Monihan. But I suppose those details may be for another discussion. I just think we make a mistake in trying to further the kingdom through government. It seems to me to be the "leaven of Herod" that Jesus warns us about.

          Gotcha, I had a feeling we're on the same page but just using different phrasing. That situation you gave is a good example.
          Thank you for being patient enough with me to get to the bottom of it.
          Matt 9:13
          13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
          NASU

          Comment


          • #95
            Re: We are becoming reprobate as a nation. Many already are there.

            Originally posted by Brother Mark View Post
            Anger often comes from hurt.
            I don't disagree with that, I just don't see anywhere in this thread I have shown myself to be "wounded".

            Maybe that's not the case with you. I was trying to be compassionate... not to deligitmize anything.
            I do not know how I was in need of compassion in anyway based on my posts.
            I think you have missed my point, honestly, in the post you quoted. I don't need compassion for telling the truth.

            But to respond to your previous note about women would still get an abortion if it was illegal...

            Well, murder is illegal and people still murder. It should be outlawed anyway. Stealing is illegal and people still steal. It should be outlawed anyway. In both cases, the numbers are probably less because it is outlawed. Lets never, ever, ever forget that abortion ends in the death of a child. We also can have compassion on the mother and the doctor.
            My post was in regard to women wanting to end a pregnancy because they want to end a pregnancy, not because of the woman's rights movement, or because they just "can", so not sure where the confusion is.
            Would you be as angry at men who would fight to protect a 2 year old from being killed as you are against those that fight to keep an unborn child from being born?
            I believe my anger over the manner some men take to the subject is justified.
            I have no need to entertain some other reason I might or might not become angry.
            Peace to you!

            It is because of Him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption.

            1 Corinthians 1:30

            Comment

            Working...
            X