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  • Discussion Seven heads of the beast

    Many do not understand the symbolism of the beast with seven heads and ten horns mentioned in Daniel 7 , Revelation 13, and Revelation 17. This leads to misunderstandings about the antichrist and other confusion.

    Rev 17:
    17:10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
    17:11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.


    The heads of the beast of Rev 17 are consecutive , not simultaneous. People often think that these are seven "kings" , but symbolic language often associates kings with empires.

    So to understand these heads better we need to understand that five empires existed before Revelation was written, one existed at that time , and one more was to come. Strangely worded is the description of the beast itself as the 8th empire.

    This is the easiest possible mystery to solve if you are a historian. Since the flood of Noah there were only a limited number of empires that dominated the middle east and they are simple to define and completely consecutive , each empire being directly involved with the destruction of the previous one:

    1)Egypt - the first empire
    2)Assyria - second
    3)Babylon - third
    4)Persia - fourth
    5)Greece - fifth (FIVE WERE)
    6)Rome - (ONE IS - Rome existed during the writing of Revelation)
    7)ONE MORE - REMAINS A WHILE
    8)then the BEAST!

    Which empire existed directly after Rome , remained for longer than the rest, and dominated the Middle East. Some say it was Islam , but Islam came a few hundred years later and the origins of Islam are under dispute. The only empire which gained immediate power at the fall of Rome was the Holy Roman Empire. The bishop of Rome suddenly came to the fore , using his influence over the Christian tribes to create peace for Rome, and gained prominence internationally. He soon had a whole empire going under the Pope.

    7) Holy Roman empire - had regular dominance over the middle east , with many wars with Islam.

    Now please note , the 8th empire is identified with the beast itself, it is not identified with ONE OF THE HEADS of the beast.

    13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
    13:2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
    13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

    13:12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

    The only empire of the seven consecutive empires that has recovered from a deadly wound is the Holy Roman Empire. All others never recovered. The Holy Roman Empire received two wounds by the sword and I am not sure which one of the two wounds the bible is referring to here. The one wound was by the sword of the word of God. During the reformation it was Martin Luther and the breakaway Christian countries and the printing of the bible that brought the Holy Roman Empire to its knees. It lost its steel grip on Europe. This weakened Rome and paved the way for another sword , Napoleon , to actually physically conquer Rome , annex papal states and arrest the Pope.

    Pope Pius VII is arrested as a result of defying Napoleon. Despite signing the Concordat with Napoleon in 1801 and conducting his coronation in 1804, the pope's relations with the French emperor have never been good. Pius refused to sign up the papal ports to Napoleon's Continental System against the British, leading to Napoleon's occupation of Rome and, in May 1809, the annexation of the Papal States. Pius issued a bull of excommunication against the 'despoilers of the Church'. This infuriated Napoleon, although Pius had not dared to name him personally, and led to the pope's arrest
    .

    Currently the Vatican has immense power , and although it is not currently known as the Holy Roman Empire, they control most world economies, the world bank, and most of the world's current finances. This is expected to become more visible , and the world will be amazed when they see how strong the Vatican is politically.


    CONCLUSION: The seven heads are seven consecutive empires The seventh empire is the Holy Roman Empire , this is the head of the beast with the fatal wound, and this wound is healing even now.

    Any comments are welcome.
    Last edited by DurbanDude; Dec 24th 2008, 08:05 AM. Reason: Edit

  • #2
    Originally posted by DurbanDude View Post
    Many do not understand the symbolism of the beast with seven heads and ten horns mentioned in Daniel 7 , Revelation 13, and Revelation 17. This leads to misunderstandings about the antichrist and other confusion.

    Rev 17:
    17:10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
    17:11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.


    The heads of the beast of Rev 17 are consecutive , not simultaneous. People often think that these are seven "kings" but the Greek actually means seven "sovereign powers". Empires is a better translation.

    So to understand these heads better we need to understand that five empires existed before Revelation was written, one existed at that time , and one more was to come. Strangely worded is the description of the beast itself as the 8th empire.

    This is the easiest possible mystery to solve if you are a historian. Since the flood of Noah there were only a limited number of empires that dominated the middle east and they are simple to define and completely consecutive , each empire being directly involved with the destruction of the previous one:

    1)Egypt - the first empire
    2)Assyria - second
    3)Babylon - third
    4)Persia - fourth
    5)Greece - fifth (FIVE WERE)
    6)Rome - (ONE IS - Rome existed during the writing of Revelation)
    7)ONE MORE - REMAINS A WHILE
    8)then the BEAST!

    Which empire existed directly after Rome , remained for longer than the rest, and dominated the Middle East. Some say it was Islam , but Islam came a few hundred years later and the origins of Islam are under dispute. The only empire which gained immediate power at the fall of Rome was the Holy Roman Empire. The bishop of Rome suddenly came to the fore , using his influence over the Christian tribes to create peace for Rome, and gained prominence internationally. He soon had a whole empire going under the Pope.

    7) Holy Roman empire - had regular dominance over the middle east , with many wars with Islam.

    Now please note , the 8th empire is identified with the beast itself, it is not identified with ONE OF THE HEADS of the beast.

    13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
    13:2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
    13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

    13:12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

    The only empire of the seven consecutive empires that has recovered from a deadly wound is the Holy Roman Empire. All others never recovered. The Holy Roman Empire received two wounds by the sword and I am not sure which one of the two wounds the bible is referring to here. The one wound was by the sword of the word of God. During the reformation it was Martin Luther and the breakaway Christian countries and the printing of the bible that brought the Holy Roman Empire to its knees. It lost its steel grip on Europe. This weakened Rome and paved the way for another sword , Napoleon , to actually physically conquer Rome , annex papal states and arrest the Pope.

    .

    Currently the Vatican has immense power , and although it is not currently known as the Holy Roman Empire, they control most world economies, the world bank, and most of the world's current finances. This is expected to become more visible , and the world will be amazed when they see how strong the Vatican is politically.


    CONCLUSION: The seven heads are seven consecutive empires The seventh empire is the Holy Roman Empire , this is the head of the beast with the fatal wound, and this wound is healing even now.

    Any comments are welcome.
    Good study. Plenty to chew on.
    "ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free" (John 8:32).

    http://www.evangelicaltruth.com/

    WPM

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by DurbanDude View Post

      1)Egypt - the first empire
      2)Assyria - second
      3)Babylon - third
      4)Persia - fourth
      5)Greece - fifth (FIVE WERE)
      6)Rome - (ONE IS - Rome existed during the writing of Revelation)
      7)ONE MORE - REMAINS A WHILE
      8)then the BEAST!

      Which empire existed directly after Rome , remained for longer than the rest, and dominated the Middle East. Some say it was Islam , but Islam came a few hundred years later and the origins of Islam are under dispute. The only empire which gained immediate power at the fall of Rome was the Holy Roman Empire. The bishop of Rome suddenly came to the fore , using his influence over the Christian tribes to create peace for Rome, and gained prominence internationally. He soon had a whole empire going under the Pope.
      Interesting theory. I think the idea of the 7 heads being sequential is well worth exploring and getting other thoughts on.

      I would say off-hand that the Ottoman Empire should not be left out. It was the greatest of all of these empires, spanning 3 continents. It was the only empire to be a direct threat to Christianity since the Roman Empire of the first century. That threat led to the Crusades.

      The Crusades didn't crush the Ottomans, but Christianity did. It was crushed by the Renaissance and the powerful economic stimulus caused by leaps in technology. The renaissance was unleashed in part by the loss of domination of the Roman Catholic Church caused by the Protestants and the printing of the Bible. Trade and economy eventually did what the Crusades and the Catholic church couldn't. The renaissance never took hold in the Ottoman Empire.

      It could be argued that Christianity wounded the Ottoman Empire critically. But today it is returning. The Ottoman empire was of course, Muslim. And we see Islam rising again, and with the same goals of a global Islamic Caliphate. It is today, once again, a direct threat to Christianity. (And everybody else for that matter.)
      In Christ,

      -- Rev

      “To preserve the government we must also preserve morals. Morality rests on religion; if you destroy the foundation, the superstructure must fall. When the public mind becomes vitiated and corrupt, laws are a nullity and constitutions are waste paper.” – Daniel Webster, 4th of July, 1800, Oration at Hanover, N.H.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by DurbanDude
        1)Egypt - the first empire
        2)Assyria - second
        3)Babylon - third
        4)Persia - fourth
        5)Greece - fifth (FIVE WERE)
        6)Rome - (ONE IS - Rome existed during the writing of Revelation)
        7)ONE MORE - REMAINS A WHILE
        8)then the BEAST!
        Good overview IMO.

        Originally posted by DurbanDude
        Which empire existed directly after Rome , remained for longer than the rest, and dominated the Middle East? Some say it was Islam , but Islam came a few hundred years later.
        That's because there was no Empire after Rome. The political configuration after the 6th empire was ten kingdoms. This is outlined in Daniel seven. The 7th empire (Islamic Empire) came after that.
        "Your name and renown
        is the desire of our hearts."
        (Isaiah 26:8)

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by DurbanDude View Post
          People often think that these are seven "kings" but the Greek actually means seven "sovereign powers". Empires is a better translation.
          Could you furnish us with your findings on this?
          "ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free" (John 8:32).

          http://www.evangelicaltruth.com/

          WPM

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Revolvr View Post
            Interesting theory. I think the idea of the 7 heads being sequential is well worth exploring and getting other thoughts on.

            I would say off-hand that the Ottoman Empire should not be left out. It was the greatest of all of these empires, spanning 3 continents. It was the only empire to be a direct threat to Christianity since the Roman Empire of the first century. That threat led to the Crusades.

            The Crusades didn't crush the Ottomans, but Christianity did. It was crushed by the Renaissance and the powerful economic stimulus caused by leaps in technology. The renaissance was unleashed in part by the loss of domination of the Roman Catholic Church caused by the Protestants and the printing of the Bible. Trade and economy eventually did what the Crusades and the Catholic church couldn't. The renaissance never took hold in the Ottoman Empire.

            It could be argued that Christianity wounded the Ottoman Empire critically. But today it is returning. The Ottoman empire was of course, Muslim. And we see Islam rising again, and with the same goals of a global Islamic Caliphate. It is today, once again, a direct threat to Christianity. (And everybody else for that matter.)
            I agree with you that the seventh is the Ottoman Empire, but not because they were a threat to Christianity, but rather because these beasts were all noted specifically for their wickedness against the Jews and for their occupying the holy land. This is also the "purpose" of the eighth and final Beast Empire.

            Blessings! - Astro
            analyze. synthesize. repeat.

            *It is the next chapter of my life, whether I'm ready or not. My time here in these forums has come to its close. I bless you as I go!*

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by wpm View Post
              Could you furnish us with your findings on this?
              Here is where KING is used:

              Rev 17:2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.

              Rev 17:10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

              Rev 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

              Rev 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

              All of these uses of King use the same word, including the use for Jesus which we know wouldn’t be an empire (he would have used kingdom instead).
              G935
              βασιλεύς
              basileus
              bas-il-yooce'
              Probably from G939 (through the notion of a foundation of power); a sovereign (abstractly, relatively or figuratively): - king.
              If we look at this literally, I don’t see anything that would indicate an empire, especially as it is distinct from the use of word kingdom.

              Kingdom is:
              G932
              βασιλεία
              basileia
              bas-il-i'-ah
              From G935; properly royalty, that is, (abstractly) rule, or (concretely) a realm (literally or figuratively): - kingdom, + reign.
              Similar word but distinctly different. We'll have to see what other exegesis DD has.
              In Christ,

              -- Rev

              “To preserve the government we must also preserve morals. Morality rests on religion; if you destroy the foundation, the superstructure must fall. When the public mind becomes vitiated and corrupt, laws are a nullity and constitutions are waste paper.” – Daniel Webster, 4th of July, 1800, Oration at Hanover, N.H.

              Comment


              • #8
                You have to put this side by side with Dan 2 & 7.

                Rev 17 is giving a panorama of the kingdoms of "the world" from the Bibles's
                perspective.

                The "beast" is important. Rev 13 says it was like a leopard, feet like a bear,
                mouth of a lion. Seven heads, ten horns. One of its heads is wounded and is healed.

                Rev 17 tells us the seven heads are seven mountains. It's the same beast from Rev 13 with more detail.

                Daniel 2 tells us that the stone that struck the image at the feet grew to be
                a great mountain and filled the whole earth. This we know is Jesus and He
                sets up a kingdom after He crushes all other kingdoms.

                So Dan 2 tells us a mountain is a kingdom. Now back to Rev 17.

                Rev 17:9; The seven heads are seven mountains, Dan 2 tells us a mountain is a kingdom. So there are seven kingdoms, there are also seven kings. Kings rule kingdoms. Five have fallen, one is, and the other is not yet come.
                Verse 11--The beast that was (3 through 5), and is not (#7) is also the 8th.

                1)Egypt
                2)Assyria
                3)Babylon Head of Gold
                4)Persia Arms and Chest of silver
                5)Greece Belly and Thighs of bronze
                6)Rome
                7)
                8)

                An important thing to notice is Dan 2:44 says that
                the iron, clay, bronze, silver, and the gold are crushed together. The only way for that to be possible if the people of those
                kingdoms are all unified together under a new larger kingdom
                that encompasses all the kingdoms from the past.

                Now the beasts from Daniel 7 only mentions 5 kingdoms (beasts) verses 23-27 explains the 4th and 5th that comes out of the 4th.
                Dan 7 is where we get the description in Rev 13, like a leopard, feet of a bear,
                mouth of a lion. Added here is huge iron teeth.

                1)Egypt
                2)Assyria
                3)Babylon---Like a Lion
                4)Persia---Like a bear
                5)Greece---Like a leopard
                6)Rome
                7)
                8)

                So now we need to figure out who the Iron is, (if I haven't completely confused you yet!!)

                Daniel 2:40
                "And the fourth kingdom shall be as strong as iron, inasmuch as iron breaks in pieces and shatters everything; and like iron that crushes, that kingdom will break in pieces and crush all the others."

                1)Egypt
                2)Assyria
                3)Babylon--Head of gold
                4)Persia--Arms chest of silver
                5)Greece--Belly and thighs of bronze
                6)Rome
                7)Ottoman Empire--Legs of Iron---wounded/defeated 1924
                8)Revived Islamic (Ottoman Empire)

                Only the kingdoms mentiond in Dan 2 and Dan 7 are in the 7th kingdom
                composite. Rome simply does not qualify, not to mention that "the people of
                the prince to come" were indeed in the Roman Legions, but they were
                mainly comprised of Arabs, Syrians, and Turks, very few actual Romans.

                It's kinda late for me and I ran through this kinda quick, I'll try to clarify it if anyone is interested.
                Mark


                “Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. 14 Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it." Matthew 7:13-14

                (All Scripture quoted is from NKJV unless otherwise noted)

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Revolvr View Post
                  Here is where KING is used:

                  Rev 17:2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.

                  Rev 17:10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

                  Rev 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

                  Rev 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

                  All of these uses of King use the same word, including the use for Jesus which we know wouldn’t be an empire (he would have used kingdom instead).
                  G935
                  βασιλεύς
                  basileus
                  bas-il-yooce'
                  Probably from G939 (through the notion of a foundation of power); a sovereign (abstractly, relatively or figuratively): - king.
                  If we look at this literally, I don’t see anything that would indicate an empire, especially as it is distinct from the use of word kingdom.

                  Kingdom is:
                  G932
                  βασιλεία
                  basileia
                  bas-il-i'-ah
                  From G935; properly royalty, that is, (abstractly) rule, or (concretely) a realm (literally or figuratively): - kingdom, + reign.
                  Similar word but distinctly different. We'll have to see what other exegesis DD has.
                  Revolvr, and wpm , this was something that I read about many years ago , and assumed was correct. But now that I'm researching it I see that you are right , it does mean royalty, or sovereign or king. So unfortunately I don't have further exegesis.

                  This does not change my view on the interpretation though , because the word "kings" often denotes empires in symbolic passages. I have had to edit the opening post accordingly.
                  Last edited by DurbanDude; Dec 24th 2008, 08:23 AM. Reason: Edit

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by astrongerthanhe View Post
                    I agree with you that the seventh is the Ottoman Empire, but not because they were a threat to Christianity, but rather because these beasts were all noted specifically for their wickedness against the Jews and for their occupying the holy land. This is also the "purpose" of the eighth and final Beast Empire.

                    Blessings! - Astro
                    Hi Astro,

                    The Holy Roman Empire has a worse history of Jewish and Christian slaughter than the Moslems. When the crusaders took over Jerusalem there was mass slaughter of Jews that had until then been living peacefully under Islamic rule. The Holy Roman Empire regularly occupied Israel.
                    Last edited by DurbanDude; Dec 24th 2008, 09:04 AM. Reason: Edit

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Mark F View Post
                      You have to put this side by side with Dan 2 & 7.

                      Rev 17 is giving a panorama of the kingdoms of "the world" from the Bibles's
                      perspective.

                      The "beast" is important. Rev 13 says it was like a leopard, feet like a bear,
                      mouth of a lion. Seven heads, ten horns. One of its heads is wounded and is healed.

                      Rev 17 tells us the seven heads are seven mountains. It's the same beast from Rev 13 with more detail.

                      Daniel 2 tells us that the stone that struck the image at the feet grew to be
                      a great mountain and filled the whole earth. This we know is Jesus and He
                      sets up a kingdom after He crushes all other kingdoms.

                      So Dan 2 tells us a mountain is a kingdom. Now back to Rev 17.

                      Rev 17:9; The seven heads are seven mountains, Dan 2 tells us a mountain is a kingdom. So there are seven kingdoms, there are also seven kings. Kings rule kingdoms. Five have fallen, one is, and the other is not yet come.
                      Verse 11--The beast that was (3 through 5), and is not (#7) is also the 8th.

                      1)Egypt
                      2)Assyria
                      3)Babylon Head of Gold
                      4)Persia Arms and Chest of silver
                      5)Greece Belly and Thighs of bronze
                      6)Rome
                      7)
                      8)

                      An important thing to notice is Dan 2:44 says that
                      the iron, clay, bronze, silver, and the gold are crushed together. The only way for that to be possible if the people of those
                      kingdoms are all unified together under a new larger kingdom
                      that encompasses all the kingdoms from the past.

                      Now the beasts from Daniel 7 only mentions 5 kingdoms (beasts) verses 23-27 explains the 4th and 5th that comes out of the 4th.
                      Dan 7 is where we get the description in Rev 13, like a leopard, feet of a bear,
                      mouth of a lion. Added here is huge iron teeth.

                      1)Egypt
                      2)Assyria
                      3)Babylon---Like a Lion
                      4)Persia---Like a bear
                      5)Greece---Like a leopard
                      6)Rome
                      7)
                      8)

                      So now we need to figure out who the Iron is, (if I haven't completely confused you yet!!)

                      Daniel 2:40
                      "And the fourth kingdom shall be as strong as iron, inasmuch as iron breaks in pieces and shatters everything; and like iron that crushes, that kingdom will break in pieces and crush all the others."

                      1)Egypt
                      2)Assyria
                      3)Babylon--Head of gold
                      4)Persia--Arms chest of silver
                      5)Greece--Belly and thighs of bronze
                      6)Rome
                      7)Ottoman Empire--Legs of Iron---wounded/defeated 1924
                      8)Revived Islamic (Ottoman Empire)

                      Only the kingdoms mentiond in Dan 2 and Dan 7 are in the 7th kingdom
                      composite. Rome simply does not qualify, not to mention that "the people of
                      the prince to come" were indeed in the Roman Legions, but they were
                      mainly comprised of Arabs, Syrians, and Turks, very few actual Romans.

                      It's kinda late for me and I ran through this kinda quick, I'll try to clarify it if anyone is interested.
                      I understand what you are saying , yet believe Daniel 2 points to an unbroken timeline of the fourth empire's control right until the second coming.

                      Daniel 2: 3 stages of ROME:
                      IRON
                      IRON AND CLAY
                      TEN TOES

                      Daniel 7: 2 stages of ROME:
                      Beast dominates earth
                      Ten horns with 3 of them dominated directly by the little horn.

                      Rev 17: 8 consecutive empires, last 3 are ROME:
                      6) Rome
                      7) Holy Roman Empire
                      8) the beast is another re-appearing country supported by the ten horns and ridden by the prostitute city (symbolic of ROME still in control)

                      There are always many confusions about what is supposed to be wounded and what is supposed to be re-appearing. Rome does not re-appear but remains forever in some form of power, there is an unbroken timeline of Daniel 2. The ten horns beast of Revelation is the final manifestation of the beast of Daniel, and relates only to the lttle horn of the beast of Daniel 7. Without this understanding its easy to believe that the Roman empire should somehow miraculously re-appear.

                      I believe the Ottoman empire is not under Rome's control and never destroyed the Roman empire therefore is not consistent with three qualities of these various prophecies:
                      1) Ongoing control of the fourth empire, ROME
                      2) Consecutive unbroken sequence of the 7 empires
                      3) complete dominance of the previous empire


                      17:3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

                      17:18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

                      Rome is the only city that was ruling over the kings of the earth when this sentence was written , Rome will sit on the beast.


                      Last edited by DurbanDude; Dec 24th 2008, 09:14 AM. Reason: Edit

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Mark F View Post
                        Only the kingdoms mentiond in Dan 2 and Dan 7 are in the 7th kingdom
                        composite. Rome simply does not qualify, not to mention that "the people of
                        the prince to come" were indeed in the Roman Legions, but they were
                        mainly comprised of Arabs, Syrians, and Turks, very few actual Romans.

                        .

                        I've heard this "Roman legions" argument before, have studied it, and it is actually not true. Those Roman legions were predominately Romans with a only one of the legions possibly, but doubtedly, having some Arab soldiers.

                        The Twelfth Legion was a Roman legion that had been established for more than 100 years.

                        The Legio XV Apollinaris was a European based Legion (Austria) that had only been in the Middle East for 9 years.

                        The Legio V Macedonia is often the one ascribed to having Arabic mercenaries , however this was a Greek legion and only came to the Middle east about 8 years before 70 AD. It went back to Greece soon after the 70 AD war.

                        By 100 BC, the Legions of the Roman Army were composed of about 130,000 legionaries. One Roman man in eight was a soldier, who was required to serve an enlistment of up to six years and after 20 some years of service, a career soldier could retire to a piece of land, generally in a conquered Roman territory


                        As far as I can gather Roman legions were traditionally soldiered by Romans.I could be wrong in that maybe ONE of the 3 legions that attacked Jerusaelm could have had middle eastern foreigners , but even if this is true the army was Roman controlled and predominately Roman, and I would like to hear conclusive evidence of any other viewpoint.
                        Last edited by DurbanDude; Dec 24th 2008, 10:10 AM. Reason: Edit

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Where does the Bible say that the statue of Daniel 2
                          represents only the 4th empire?


                          Flavious Josephus wrote about the Roman war against the Jews, if you
                          will read the pages I have linked below, you will find he states clearly the legions were Syrian, Dan 9 points to the "people" not the empire.


                          http://www.biblestudytools.net/Histo...&chapter=15&s=

                          http://www.biblestudytools.net/Histo...&chapter=16&s=

                          I was taught as well that Europe will be the kingdom to look for, it just dosen't fit if you study it out.

                          1)Egypt - the first empire
                          2)Assyria - second
                          3)Babylon - third
                          4)Persia - fourth
                          5)Greece - fifth (FIVE WERE)
                          6)Rome - (ONE IS - Rome existed during the writing of Revelation)
                          7)ROME REVIVED!!!
                          8)ROME FOR THE THIRD TIME


                          Rome 3 times??
                          Mark


                          “Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. 14 Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it." Matthew 7:13-14

                          (All Scripture quoted is from NKJV unless otherwise noted)

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Mark F View Post
                            Where does the Bible say that the statue of Daniel 2
                            represents only the 4th empire?

                            Dan 2:40 And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise.
                            2:41 And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.
                            2:42 And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.
                            2:43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay
                            .

                            This is subject to interpretation, but when I read the description above it speaks of the fourth kingdom being of iron , then being divided. I tend to think if this was speaking of a fifth kingdom the language would be clearer.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by DurbanDude View Post
                              I understand what you are saying , yet believe Daniel 2 points to an unbroken timeline of the fourth empire's control right until the second coming.

                              Daniel 2: 3 stages of ROME:
                              IRON
                              IRON AND CLAY
                              TEN TOES

                              Daniel 7: 2 stages of ROME:
                              Beast dominates earth
                              Ten horns with 3 of them dominated directly by the little horn.

                              Rev 17: 8 consecutive empires, last 3 are ROME:
                              6) Rome
                              7) Holy Roman Empire
                              8) the beast is another re-appearing country supported by the ten horns and ridden by the prostitute city (symbolic of ROME still in control)

                              There are always many confusions about what is supposed to be wounded and what is supposed to be re-appearing. Rome does not re-appear but remains forever in some form of power, there is an unbroken timeline of Daniel 2. The ten horns beast of Revelation is the final manifestation of the beast of Daniel, and relates only to the lttle horn of the beast of Daniel 7. Without this understanding its easy to believe that the Roman empire should somehow miraculously re-appear.

                              I believe the Ottoman empire is not under Rome's control and never destroyed the Roman empire therefore is not consistent with three qualities of these various prophecies:
                              1) Ongoing control of the fourth empire, ROME
                              2) Consecutive unbroken sequence of the 7 empires
                              3) complete dominance of the previous empire


                              17:3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

                              17:18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

                              Rome is the only city that was ruling over the kings of the earth when this sentence was written , Rome will sit on the beast.


                              Not to dispute, but when the Capital of Rome moved to Constantinople and later the empire split, was the eastern one no longer considered Rome? I'm just trying to get my head around this.


                              Originally posted by DurbanDude View Post
                              Dan 2:40 And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise.
                              2:41 And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.
                              2:42 And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.
                              2:43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay
                              .

                              This is subject to interpretation, but when I read the description above it speaks of the fourth kingdom being of iron , then being divided. I tend to think if this was speaking of a fifth kingdom the language would be clearer.
                              Did this not happen when the empire split into an Eastern and Western half? Constantinople stood for a VERY long time because though the turks tried they could not sack the city easily.

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