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  • Why do you marvel?

    Rev 17:5 And on her forehead was written a name of mystery: "Babylon the great, mother of prostitutes and of earth's abominations."
    Rev 17:6 And I saw the woman, drunk with the blood of the saints, the blood of the martyrs of Jesus. When I saw her, I marveled greatly.
    Rev 17:7 But the angel said to me, "Why do you marvel? I will tell you the mystery of the woman, and of the beast with seven heads and ten horns that carries her.

    Why did John marvel?

    Do you think that he may have had, a wrongly preconceived idea (from scripture) who this 'mystery' Babylon would be, or that Babylon was revived.

    Isa 21:8 And he cried, A lion: My lord, I stand continually upon the watchtower in the daytime, and I am set in my ward whole nights:
    Isa 21:9 And, behold, here cometh a chariot of men, with a couple of horsemen. And he answered and said, Babylon is fallen, is fallen; and all the graven images of her gods he hath broken unto the ground.

    Also Jermiah 50 and 51

  • #2
    Originally posted by Partaker of Christ View Post
    Rev 17:5 And on her forehead was written a name of mystery: "Babylon the great, mother of prostitutes and of earth's abominations."
    Rev 17:6 And I saw the woman, drunk with the blood of the saints, the blood of the martyrs of Jesus. When I saw her, I marveled greatly.
    Rev 17:7 But the angel said to me, "Why do you marvel? I will tell you the mystery of the woman, and of the beast with seven heads and ten horns that carries her.

    Why did John marvel?

    Do you think that he may have had, a wrongly preconceived idea (from scripture) who this 'mystery' Babylon would be, or that Babylon was revived.

    Isa 21:8 And he cried, A lion: My lord, I stand continually upon the watchtower in the daytime, and I am set in my ward whole nights:
    Isa 21:9 And, behold, here cometh a chariot of men, with a couple of horsemen. And he answered and said, Babylon is fallen, is fallen; and all the graven images of her gods he hath broken unto the ground.

    Also Jermiah 50 and 51
    John marveled as he has seen this image before in heaven..........

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    • #3
      I think John marvelled because the city that is called Babylon is a city that, at his lifetime, was considered the enemy of God. I believe that he had seen Rome.

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      • #4
        I think...

        Originally posted by third hero View Post
        I think John marvelled because the city that is called Babylon is a city that, at his lifetime, was considered the enemy of God. I believe that he had seen Rome.
        ...That he marveled because she was drinking from the cup.

        REV 17:4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:
        JER 14:13 Then said I: 'Ah, Lord GOD! behold, the prophets say unto them: Ye shall not see the sword, neither shall ye have famine; but I will give you assured peace in this place.'
        JER 14:14 Then the LORD said unto me: 'The prophets prophesy lies in My name; I sent them not, neither have I commanded them, neither spoke I unto them; they prophesy unto you a lying vision, and divination, and a thing of nought, and the deceit of their own heart.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Partaker of Christ View Post
          Rev 17:5 And on her forehead was written a name of mystery: "Babylon the great, mother of prostitutes and of earth's abominations."
          Rev 17:6 And I saw the woman, drunk with the blood of the saints, the blood of the martyrs of Jesus. When I saw her, I marveled greatly.
          Rev 17:7 But the angel said to me, "Why do you marvel? I will tell you the mystery of the woman, and of the beast with seven heads and ten horns that carries her.

          Why did John marvel?
          I think he marvelled because he was shocked that she had so much power, and shocked that she was so disgusting. There is this creature drinking the blood of our brothers and sisters, the saints. Rome's involvement in the wholesale slaughter of Jews and Christians over the ages is shocking . From ancient Rome to the Holy Roman empire to the more modern secretive Jesuit movement , bringing down governments, influencing massacres for its own ends and its own power.

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          • #6
            John Marveled because he was shocked as found that the harolt is Israel.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Diolectic View Post
              John Marveled because he was shocked as found that the harolt is Israel.
              Hi Diolectic!

              I marvel that you believe this.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Diolectic View Post
                John Marveled because he was shocked as found that the harolt is Israel.
                Diolectic, I agree that Israel will rule over the earth under the rule of the antichrist at the end, however I believe that you have the roles reversed:

                The beast of Revelation 17 can be likened to the little horn of Daniel 7. A small country that was, and was destroyed, and then rose up again to shock the non-believers of earth. Remember the church was not shocked when Israel arose in 1948, it was a fulfilment of prophecy, the church was excited:

                17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

                I believe the 8th empire of Rev 17 is Israel. The woman city of Rev 17/18 sits on the beast. This is indicative of control. This city that sets up the antichrist rule from Israel is defined:

                17:18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

                The woman is Rome, which is the only city that ruled over many kings at the time of writing of Revelation, Israel's dominance is actually the 3rd phase of Rome's dominance. We know all about the phases of Rome from Daniel 2:
                1)Iron - military empire
                2)Two legs- East and West divisions of Rome
                Iron and clay - the religious and military power in both east and west divisions of the Roman Empire.
                3)Ten toes - Rome divides earth into ten regions to support the beast, the rule of Israel.

                These 3 phases of Rome's rule fit in with the last 6th, 7th and 8th empires of Rev 17.

                If you do an in depth study of all the detailed descriptions of the city of Rev 17/18 we can see that every description matches Rome (both current Rome and ancient Rome) perfectly, yet it takes a stretch of facts to fit in these descriptions with other cities. For example, the wearing of both violet and purple robes was a common practice in the leadership of ancient Rome, and the robes of the cardinals and bishops of current Rome (I mean the Vatican) are violet and purple.
                Last edited by DurbanDude; Jan 2nd 2009, 10:35 PM. Reason: edit

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Partaker of Christ View Post
                  Hi Diolectic!
                  Originally posted by Partaker of Christ View Post

                  I marvel that you believe this.
                  Now you know how John felt.

                  Revelation 17:
                  God is dealing with Israel, not Rome or any other nation. Rome is not married to any one, but Israel is(was) married to God. After the Church and true Israel is raptured, all that is left is the whore which is unrepentant Israel.

                  Revelation 17:3So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet colored beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.
                  Who have we read that was last seen in the wilderness?
                  Israel was last seen in the wilderness.

                  Rev 12:6And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and three score days.
                  Rev 12:14And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
                  Who are the "they" in verse 6?
                  They are the nations which was to be ruled all nations with a rod of iron by the male child.
                  While Israel was being "fed" by the nations, she started playing the harlot.

                  Rev 17:2With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication. (Ref. Eze 16:26You have also committed fornication with the Egyptians your very fleshly neighbors; and hast increased thy whoredoms, to provoke me to anger.)
                  Who is the harlot through out the Scriptures?
                  Even in Hosea, Israel was being portrayed as his wife the harlot.

                  Rev 12:4And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet color, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:
                  This is a description of the priestly garments and the
                  And the "precious stones" were according to the names of the children of Israel, Exodus 39:6-14

                  Who is drunk with the blood of the saint and martyrs of Jesus?
                  Rev 12:6And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration. (Ref. Isa 1:21How is the faithful city become an harlot! it was full of judgment; righteousness lodged in it; but now murderers
                  Mat 23:34-37 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city: :35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. :36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation. :37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that kills the prophets, and stones them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathers her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
                  Luk 11:47-51
                  Act 7:58-60And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul. :59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit. :60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by DurbanDude View Post
                    Diolectic, I agree that
                    Originally posted by DurbanDude View Post
                    Israel will rule over the earth under the rule of the antichrist at the end, however I believe that you have the roles reversed:
                    I'm showing that the harlot is Israel.
                    I'm have not shown who the antichrist is.

                    The beast of Revelation 17 can be likened to the little horn of Daniel 7. A small country that was, and was destroyed, and then rose up again to shock the non-believers of earth. Remember the church was not shocked when Israel arose in 1948, it was a fulfilment of prophecy, the church was excited:

                    17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

                    I believe the 8th empire of Rev 17 is Israel. The woman city of Rev 17/18 sits on the beast. This is indicative of control. This city that sets up the antichrist rule from Israel is defined:
                    Rev 17:8 The beast that you saw was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition(rev 20:3): and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder(Isa 14:10), whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is (Jesus was and is and is to come, a complete contrast to the devil.)

                    Ref. Rev 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season (shall ascend out of the bottomless pit). Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. (and go into perdition)
                    And;
                    Isa 14:10 All they shall speak and say unto you, Art thou also become weak as we? Are you become like unto us? (shall wonder)
                    Therefore, the beast is the devil.

                    Rev 17:10And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come(the 8th); and when he comes, he must continue a short while.
                    1. Egypt (1600-1200 BC),
                    2. Assyria (900-600 BC),
                    3. Babylon (606-536 BC) which is the lion Dan 7:4
                    4. Medo-Persia (536-330 BC) which is the bear Dan 7:5
                    5. Greece (330-146 BC) which is the 4-Headed leopard Dan 7:6
                    6. Rome (200 BC-400 AD),
                    7. Rome. Dan 7:7 the world will come back to the Roman type of Government.
                    Rev 17:11And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goes into perdition.
                    Note: And the beast that was, and is not (Satin as the antichrist himself), even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, (kings) and goes into perdition. There is going to be a newly reformed Roman type of Government that the anti-Christ will take advantage of.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Diolectic View Post
                      I'm showing that the harlot is Israel.
                      I'm have not shown who the antichrist is.

                      Rev 17:8 The beast that you saw was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition(rev 20:3): and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder(Isa 14:10), whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is (Jesus was and is and is to come, a complete contrast to the devil.)

                      Ref. Rev 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season (shall ascend out of the bottomless pit). Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. (and go into perdition)
                      And;
                      Isa 14:10 All they shall speak and say unto you, Art thou also become weak as we? Are you become like unto us? (shall wonder)
                      Therefore, the beast is the devil.

                      Rev 17:10And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come(the 8th); and when he comes, he must continue a short while.
                      1. Egypt (1600-1200 BC),
                      2. Assyria (900-600 BC),
                      3. Babylon (606-536 BC) which is the lion Dan 7:4
                      4. Medo-Persia (536-330 BC) which is the bear Dan 7:5
                      5. Greece (330-146 BC) which is the 4-Headed leopard Dan 7:6
                      6. Rome (200 BC-400 AD),
                      7. Rome. Dan 7:7 the world will come back to the Roman type of Government.
                      Rev 17:11And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goes into perdition.
                      Note: And the beast that was, and is not (Satin as the antichrist himself), even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, (kings) and goes into perdition. There is going to be a newly reformed Roman type of Government that the anti-Christ will take advantage of.
                      How can the beast be Rome when Revelation says the beast "was" and "is not" , at a time when Rome was ruling?

                      Like I said before, I believe you have the roles reversed, the beast of Rev 17 is Israel , and the woman is Rome.

                      a) Before Judaism Babylon was the harlot city, representing world religion, yet representing it falsely without recognising the one true God.
                      b) During Judaism, when Judaism was the one true religion, Jerusalem represented the one true religion, yet was a harlot, being unfaithful to God.
                      c) During Christianity, the one true religion, which is the current city that claims to represent the true religion and yet misrepresents it? Rome.

                      Three prostitute cities. no matter how many verses you show to prove that Jerusalem has similarities to the woman city of Rev 17/18, Rome does match these chapters even better.

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                      • #12
                        I am probably out of line but taking that chance, I marvel at that anyone thinks Israel is any of those things in Rev: AC, Babylon, Whore or Rome. I'm sorry but that boggles my mind.


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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by DurbanDude View Post
                          How can the beast be Rome when Revelation says the beast "was" and "is not" , at a time when Rome was ruling?

                          Like I said before, I believe you have the roles reversed, the beast of Rev 17 is Israel , and the woman is Rome.

                          a) Before Judaism Babylon was the harlot city, representing world religion, yet representing it falsely without recognising the one true God.
                          b) During Judaism, when Judaism was the one true religion, Jerusalem represented the one true religion, yet was a harlot, being unfaithful to God.
                          c) During Christianity, the one true religion, which is the current city that claims to represent the true religion and yet misrepresents it? Rome.

                          Three prostitute cities. no matter how many verses you show to prove that Jerusalem has similarities to the woman city of Rev 17/18, Rome does match these chapters even better.
                          The woman is the city Jerusalem. Jerusalem is the only city ever called a whore by name. As times past, this city will again play the harlot.

                          The beast which rides her is no other than son of perdition. The combination of all these things is Satan's kingdom. Hell on earth.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by quiet dove View Post
                            I am probably out of line but taking that chance, I marvel at that anyone thinks Israel is any of those things in Rev: AC, Babylon, Whore or Rome. I'm sorry but that boggles my mind.
                            Jerusalem will again play the harlot as Babylon

                            --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                            Babylon is not the US, UN, or some other. Babylon (mystery) is Jerusalem whereby a KING will reside in rule the world ; sounds familiar..... The AC claims to be the most high so where do you think he would rule from?


                            The Whore

                            The bible only has spoken of one such city as a whore, Jerusalem.

                            Chapters which relate Jerusalem to being a WHORE.

                            Isaiah chapter 1
                            Jeremiah chapter 3
                            Ezekiel chapter 16
                            Hosea chapter 4

                            Rev. 17:16 - We see lovers will strip her, this is seen happening to Jerusalem in EZ 16:37.

                            Rev. 18: 4 - In addition, God called for “MY PEOPLE” to come out of this city and not be partakers of her sins. This reference is to those you will keep the commandments his people Israel.

                            Rev. 18:6 – This woman is rewarded double for her iniquity. This “double” punishment is seen to Jerusalem in Isaiah 4:2 and Jer. 16:18, 17:18.

                            Rev. 18:7 - She denies that she is a whore and a widow, Jerusalem is described as a widow in Lam 1:1.

                            Rev. 18:22, 23 – We see that the LIGHT OF A CANDLE and the VOICE OF THE BRIDEGROOM and SOUNS OF MILLSTONES shall be heard no more out from this city. This event is seen occurring to Jerusalem in Jer. 7:34, 16:9, 25:10, 33:11.


                            Do we not see that this city Babylon will counterfeit another woman see a couple of chapters later.


                            Still boggled?

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Diolectic View Post
                              John Marveled because he was shocked as found that the harolt is Israel.
                              I don't think he was "shocked" rather he "wondered" with great admiration at this site of the city. A city paved with gold and precious jewels. A city adorned in purple and sacarlet, a city likened unto the kingdom of God!

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