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  • Millennium matters: who is being ruled by Christ

    And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. Revelation 19:15

    As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time. Daniel 7:12

    And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom [is] an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him. Daniel 7:27

    Ask of me, and I shall give [thee] the heathen [for] thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth [for] thy possession. Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel. Psalm 2:8-9

    And it shall come to pass, [that] every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. Zechariah 14:16

    And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. Revelation 20:4

    What do these verses tell me? They tell me that when the Lord comes, there will be those who will not be destroyed by Him, but rather are given their lives and are ruled by the Lord and His Saints.

    I have read in here that some believe that there will be no survivors, which these verses refute. Others say that these survivors are people who have been left behind when the rapture happened before the Great Tribulation, which Revelation 7 refutes.

    So who are these people? I say that they are the heathen nations that Jesus sets aside as sheep in Matthew 25:31-46. These are those who are required in Zechariah 14:16 to come to Jerusalem yearly to worship the King of Kings.

    I guess that this is an invitation to everyone to do two things. Show your perspective and disprove all of the others. Hopefully, we can gain some clarity here.

  • #2
    Originally posted by third hero View Post
    And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. Revelation 19:15

    As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time. Daniel 7:12

    And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom [is] an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him. Daniel 7:27

    Ask of me, and I shall give [thee] the heathen [for] thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth [for] thy possession. Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel. Psalm 2:8-9

    And it shall come to pass, [that] every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. Zechariah 14:16

    And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. Revelation 20:4

    What do these verses tell me? They tell me that when the Lord comes, there will be those who will not be destroyed by Him, but rather are given their lives and are ruled by the Lord and His Saints.

    I have read in here that some believe that there will be no survivors, which these verses refute. Others say that these survivors are people who have been left behind when the rapture happened before the Great Tribulation, which Revelation 7 refutes.

    So who are these people? I say that they are the heathen nations that Jesus sets aside as sheep in Matthew 25:31-46. These are those who are required in Zechariah 14:16 to come to Jerusalem yearly to worship the King of Kings.

    I guess that this is an invitation to everyone to do two things. Show your perspective and disprove all of the others. Hopefully, we can gain some clarity here.

    Hi third hero,
    For a start I have nothing to prove or disprove and I come with the word of God to this post.

    So who are these people? I say that they are the heathen nations that Jesus sets aside as sheep in Matthew 25:31-46. These are those who are required in Zechariah 14:16 to come to Jerusalem yearly to worship the King of Kings.
    I would like to discuss what has been written here.

    How do you come to the conclusion that those mortals who go into the millennial kingdom are heathen? You have quoted Matthew 25:31-46. Let's have a look at those verses.

    Matthew 25:31-46
    31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’ 37 “Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? 38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39 Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40 And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’ 41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’ 44 “Then they also will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

    When the Lord returns He gathers His elect from all corners of the earth and from heaven. He seperates the sheep ( His elect ) from the goats ( non believers ).

    Matthew 13:30
    Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.”’”

    Matthew 24:31
    And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

    Mark 13:27
    And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven.

    God made a promise that Israel would one day inherit all the land that Abraham's eye could see. All God asked for was total obedience from His chosen people, if they disobeyed they would be ruled over by other nations until they turned away from their sin and seeked their God.

    When Christ returns He gathers His elect from the earth. These are the ones who are left from the nations for the Lord seperates the sheep and the goats.

    The sheep belong to the Lord and go into the millennial kingdom in their mortal bodies, the goats are cast out into outer darkness.

    The ones that are gathered from the heavens are those who had been raptured and those who had died during the tribulation period let's not forget the old testament saints aswell these three groups return to reign with the Lord over those sheep who have survived when the nations are destroyed. By saying sheep I am refering to the Lord's elect.

    Not one none believer goes into the millennial kingdom.
    John 8:31-32



    31 Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. 32 And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”


    Dizzy

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by DIZZY View Post
      When Christ returns He gathers His elect from the earth. These are the ones who are left from the nations for the Lord seperates the sheep and the goats.

      The sheep belong to the Lord and go into the millennial kingdom in their mortal bodies, the goats are cast out into outer darkness.

      The ones that are gathered from the heavens are those who had been raptured and those who had died during the tribulation period let's not forget the old testament saints aswell these three groups return to reign with the Lord over those sheep who have survived when the nations are destroyed. By saying sheep I am refering to the Lord's elect.

      Not one none believer goes into the millennial kingdom.
      But, doesn't the idea of surviving believers from the Great Tribulation live as mortals in the Millennium contradict 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 and Zechariah 14:16-20?

      According to 1 Thessalonians 4:15, the events in the next verses happen at the return of the Lord.

      For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

      From there, Paul goes on to say:

      For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

      The fact that the term, "we which are alive and remain" brings the focus back to those in the previous verse. This says that at the return of the Lord, the dead in Christ will rise first, and then we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will rise up, and meet the Lord in the Air. From that moment on, we are forever with the Lord.

      This "rapture" can not happen before the dead in CHrist rise first, and that cann not happen until the Lord returns, as verse 25 clearly tells us. When we meet the lord in the air, there wil no longer be any believers on the earth, because they will all be in the air.

      Also, Zechariah 14:16 clearly states that those who are made to go up to Jerusalem to worship the Lord are "heathen", which are unbelieving people. These are not righteous, and they are not the "saints" that were "left behind". They are the heathen people who were not at Armageddon, who have had their lives prolonged for a little while (Daniel 7:12) who will have to go to Jerusalem yearly at the Feast of Tabernacles (Zechariah 14:16-20).

      So, I have to disagree with you, because the scriptures show that the people of God wil be either raised from the dead, or in the air, gathered by the angels of God, to be with Christ forever.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by third hero View Post
        But, doesn't the idea of surviving believers from the Great Tribulation live as mortals in the Millennium contradict 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 and Zechariah 14:16-20?

        According to 1 Thessalonians 4:15, the events in the next verses happen at the return of the Lord.

        For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

        From there, Paul goes on to say:

        For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

        The fact that the term, "we which are alive and remain" brings the focus back to those in the previous verse. This says that at the return of the Lord, the dead in Christ will rise first, and then we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will rise up, and meet the Lord in the Air. From that moment on, we are forever with the Lord.

        This "rapture" can not happen before the dead in CHrist rise first, and that cann not happen until the Lord returns, as verse 25 clearly tells us. When we meet the lord in the air, there wil no longer be any believers on the earth, because they will all be in the air.

        Also, Zechariah 14:16 clearly states that those who are made to go up to Jerusalem to worship the Lord are "heathen", which are unbelieving people. These are not righteous, and they are not the "saints" that were "left behind". They are the heathen people who were not at Armageddon, who have had their lives prolonged for a little while (Daniel 7:12) who will have to go to Jerusalem yearly at the Feast of Tabernacles (Zechariah 14:16-20).

        So, I have to disagree with you, because the scriptures show that the people of God wil be either raised from the dead, or in the air, gathered by the angels of God, to be with Christ forever.
        He showed you a problem with your understanding of Matthew 25:31-46. Can you please specifically address it? You see the sheep as being heathen, do you not? How could the heathen be called "the righteous" as they are called in verse 37 (and 46)? Only believers could be called "the righteous" and only believers could inherit eternal life in the kingdom prepared from the foundation of the world.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by third hero View Post
          I say that they are the heathen nations that Jesus sets aside as sheep in Matthew 25:31-46.
          Avoiding doctrinal interpretation, let's just look at number of N.T. verses that reference sheep, and associate them with either "The Heathen" or "The Faithful". What do the exampled verses tell us?


          Verses from the N.T. showing "sheep" are representative of "Heathen People"

          Heathen Sheep Verses = 0





          Verses from the N.T. showing "sheep" are representative of "Faithful People"Faithful Sheep Verses = 14

          Matthew 7:15 "Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves."

          Matthew 25:33 "And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father"

          Matthew 26:31 "Then saith Jesus unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered abroad."

          Mark 14:27 "And Jesus saith unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered."

          John 10:2 "10:2 But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out. "

          John 10:4 "And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice."

          John 10:11 "I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep."

          John 10:14 "I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine. As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep."

          John 10:27 "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: "

          John 21:16 "He saith to him again the second time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my sheep. "

          Romans 8:36 "As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. "

          Hebrews 13:20 "Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant"

          I Peter 2:24 "Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls."

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by John146 View Post
            He showed you a problem with your understanding of Matthew 25:31-46. Can you please specifically address it? You see the sheep as being heathen, do you not? How could the heathen be called "the righteous" as they are called in verse 37 (and 46)? Only believers could be called "the righteous" and only believers could inherit eternal life in the kingdom prepared from the foundation of the world.
            I have answered this question over and over again. Although I have answered this question before, I'll do it one more time.

            We start with verse 31.
            When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

            At this point, the designated time that Lord Jesus is talking about is the point after His return, when he fulfills Daniel 7:13-14.

            Verse 32
            And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth [his] sheep from the goats:

            Now, up to this point, we see that the Lord gathers the nations and separats them. If these were the only two verses found in this portion of scripture, then I would have no arguement. So, let's go on.

            Verse 33
            And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

            More evidence that you may be correct.

            Verse 34
            Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

            Looks like I may not have a leg to stand on, since it appears that the ones from the nations that are separated are those who have been faithful to Lord Jesus.

            verse 35
            For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
            Verse 36
            Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
            verse 37
            Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed [thee]? or thirsty, and gave [thee] drink?
            Verse 38
            When saw we thee a stranger, and took [thee] in? or naked, and clothed [thee]?
            verse 39
            Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

            I grouped these verses together for a reason. The Lord calls them righteous, but he clarifies why he does so. He says to them that he was fed by them when He was thirsty, clothed by them when he was naked, Taken in by them when he was a stranger, visited by them when he was sick, and camr to him when He was imprisoned. The ones called righteous asked this very important question. They asked when did they do all of these things in which he is calling them righteous for? Remember, Jesus was never sick, he was NOT clothed by anyone when they took off his robe and casts lots for it, and was known by the Israelites while he walked the earth. Jesus then directly answers their question, and that answer is why I contend that this judgment to the nations and not to the believers.

            Verse 40
            And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done [it] unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done [it] unto me.

            Jesus judges the nations based on their treatment of His Brethern. Who are they? Are they not the Believers? If the nations are judged for their treatment of the believers, then how can the believers be lumped into that judgement?

            I believe that verse 40 is the key to understanding the context of this judgment. The believers are not among the nations, because the nation's treatment of the Believers is the basis of the Lord's judging of them. This clarifies the "sheep" and the "righteous" classifications stated here. The nations that treated the believers well during the greatest period of human suffering ever would be classified as "righteous", although they could not be the same "righteous" as the "Brethern" whom the Lord bases His judgment of them on.

            Verse 41
            Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
            verse 42
            For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
            Verse 43
            I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.


            Notice that He is basing the same judgment that he gave to those He calls sheep to those that he is calling goats, except the goats are being tossed into the Lake. Why? Because they did not do to him what the righteous did to Him.

            Verse 44
            Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

            Likened to the "righteous" in verse 37, the wicked asked Him when did they not aid Him.

            verse 45
            Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did [it] not to one of the least of these, ye did [it] not to me.

            Again, like verse 40, the wicked are judged on their treatment of "the least of these", a reference back to His brethern. Who are His brethern? The believers.

            Now I ask you, if the treatment of the believers is the basis for the King separating the nations, how are the believers a part of the nations that are being judged?
            Last edited by third hero; Jan 5th 2009, 07:44 PM. Reason: Proof-reading

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by third hero View Post
              ...So who are these people? I say that they are the heathen nations that Jesus sets aside as sheep in Matthew 25:31-46. These are those who are required in Zechariah 14:16 to come to Jerusalem yearly to worship the King of Kings.
              How could a heathen nation be referred to as sheep? Doesn't that go completely against everything Christ preached?

              Luk 11:23 He that is not with me is against me: and he that gathereth not with me scattereth.

              Raybob

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by David Taylor View Post
                Avoiding doctrinal interpretation, let's just look at number of N.T. verses that reference sheep, and associate them with either "The Heathen" or "The Faithful". What do the exampled verses tell us?


                Verses from the N.T. showing "sheep" are representative of "Heathen People"

                Heathen Sheep Verses = 0
                Look up the term, "Lost sheep", and we see a different scenario.

                I have gone astray like a lost sheep; seek thy servant; for I do not forget thy commandments. Psalm 119:176

                My people hath been lost sheep: their shepherds have caused them to go astray, they have turned them away [on] the mountains: they have gone from mountain to hill, they have forgotten their restingplace. Jeremiah 50:6

                But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Matthew 10:6

                Who are these lost sheep? Are they righteous, or lost? Are they saved, or lost? The idea of sheep being lost tells me that the term sheep is not exclusive to the saved or the righteous.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Raybob View Post
                  How could a heathen nation be referred to as sheep? Doesn't that go completely against everything Christ preached?

                  Luk 11:23 He that is not with me is against me: and he that gathereth not with me scattereth.

                  Raybob
                  Again, sheep is a metaphor. Jesus uses it to describe the condition of mankind. Man, like sheep, are helpless without a shepherd. He has labeled some of mankind as lost sheep. He has labelled his own people as lost sheep. The term sheep does not refer to the righteous, just to the condition of mankind.

                  So no, it does not contradict anything.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by third hero View Post
                    I grouped these verses together for a reason. The Lord calls them righteous, but he clarifies why he does so. He says to them that he was fed by them when He was thirsty, clothed by them when he was naked, Taken in by them when he was a stranger, visited by them when he was sick, and camr to him when He was imprisoned. The ones called righteous asked this very important question. They asked when did they do all of these things in which he is calling them righteous for? Remember, Jesus was never sick, he was NOT clothed by anyone when they took off his robe and casts lots for it, and was known by the Israelites while he walked the earth. Jesus then directly answers their question, and that answer is why I contend that this judgment to the nations and not to the believers.

                    Verse 40
                    And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done [it] unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done [it] unto me.

                    Jesus judges the nations based on their treatment of His Brethern. Who are they? Are they not the Believers? If the nations are judged for their treatment of the believers, then how can the believers be lumped into that judgement?

                    I believe that verse 40 is the key to understanding the context of this judgment. The believers are not among the nations, because the nation's treatment of the Believers is the basis of the Lord's judging of them. This clarifies the "sheep" and the "righteous" classifications stated here. The nations that treated the believers well during the greatest period of human suffering ever would be classified as "righteous", although they could not be the same "righteous" as the "Brethern" whom the Lord bases His judgment of them on.

                    Verse 41
                    Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
                    verse 42
                    For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
                    Verse 43
                    I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.


                    Notice that He is basing the same judgment that he gave to those He calls sheep to those that he is calling goats, except the goats are being tossed into the Lake. Why? Because they did not do to him what the righteous did to Him.
                    This has got to be the most interesting interpretation of this piece of scripture i've ever seen.

                    The righteous are the ones who did these things for the least of these: clothed the naked, fed the hungry, gave water to those who are thirsty, visited the sick and those in prison.

                    The least of these are those who these things were given to or done for. They are without. It's the homeless guy under the bridge, the family who's foodstamps ran out in two weeks and mom and dad are out of work, it's those dying alone and unable to care for themselves, it's those who need a drink of clean water because they are thirsty, it's those who are locked up in prison because of sin.

                    Those who didn't do these things to those who were in need - are the goats. Those who did - are the sheep. Goats go into eternal punishment, the sheep who are righteous into eternal life.

                    If sheep did the same thing as goats, wouldn't they be goats? If those sheep are unrighteous (as you said they didn't do what the righteous did, that would make them unrighteous) why would they escape the same judgement of the goats?

                    We are for Him or against Him. Not just sort of or kinda.

                    Originally posted by third hero View Post
                    Look up the term, "Lost sheep", and we see a different scenario.
                    So are you talking about sheep or lost sheep? That makes a huge difference. Are you not considered a sheep that follows Christ, as I am? Then wouldn't that put you in the sheep category? His sheep hear His voice and they follow Him. A lost sheep can't hear His voice, because it's wandered from the flock. You said in the first post of yours I quoted above that the brethren are the sheep.

                    So, which is it? Lost or not?
                    Seek ye FIRST the kingdom.
                    Not second or third, but first.
                    Only when all else pales to God, when He receives all glory,
                    when He is the source of all hope,
                    when His love is received and freely given,
                    holding not to the world but to the promise to come,
                    will all other things be added unto to you.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by third hero View Post
                      Again, sheep is a metaphor. Jesus uses it to describe the condition of mankind. Man, like sheep, are helpless without a shepherd. He has labeled some of mankind as lost sheep. He has labelled his own people as lost sheep. The term sheep does not refer to the righteous, just to the condition of mankind.

                      So no, it does not contradict anything.
                      How are sheep referring to all mankind when we know there are two types of mankind - sheep and goats?
                      Seek ye FIRST the kingdom.
                      Not second or third, but first.
                      Only when all else pales to God, when He receives all glory,
                      when He is the source of all hope,
                      when His love is received and freely given,
                      holding not to the world but to the promise to come,
                      will all other things be added unto to you.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by third hero View Post
                        I have answered this question over and over again. Although I have answered this question before, I'll do it one more time.

                        We start with verse 31.
                        When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

                        At this point, the designated time that Lord Jesus is talking about is the point after His return, when he fulfills Daniel 7:13-14.

                        Verse 32
                        And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth [his] sheep from the goats:

                        Now, up to this point, we see that the Lord gathers the nations and separats them. If these were the only two verses found in this portion of scripture, then I would have no arguement. So, let's go on.

                        Verse 33
                        And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

                        More evidence that you may be correct.

                        Verse 34
                        Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

                        Looks like I may not have a leg to stand on, since it appears that the ones from the nations that are separated are those who have been faithful to Lord Jesus.

                        verse 35
                        For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
                        Verse 36
                        Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
                        verse 37
                        Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed [thee]? or thirsty, and gave [thee] drink?
                        Verse 38
                        When saw we thee a stranger, and took [thee] in? or naked, and clothed [thee]?
                        verse 39
                        Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

                        I grouped these verses together for a reason. The Lord calls them righteous, but he clarifies why he does so. He says to them that he was fed by them when He was thirsty, clothed by them when he was naked, Taken in by them when he was a stranger, visited by them when he was sick, and camr to him when He was imprisoned. The ones called righteous asked this very important question. They asked when did they do all of these things in which he is calling them righteous for? Remember, Jesus was never sick, he was NOT clothed by anyone when they took off his robe and casts lots for it, and was known by the Israelites while he walked the earth. Jesus then directly answers their question, and that answer is why I contend that this judgment to the nations and not to the believers.

                        Verse 40
                        And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done [it] unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done [it] unto me.

                        Jesus judges the nations based on their treatment of His Brethern. Who are they? Are they not the Believers? If the nations are judged for their treatment of the believers, then how can the believers be lumped into that judgement?

                        I believe that verse 40 is the key to understanding the context of this judgment. The believers are not among the nations, because the nation's treatment of the Believers is the basis of the Lord's judging of them. This clarifies the "sheep" and the "righteous" classifications stated here. The nations that treated the believers well during the greatest period of human suffering ever would be classified as "righteous", although they could not be the same "righteous" as the "Brethern" whom the Lord bases His judgment of them on.

                        Verse 41
                        Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
                        verse 42
                        For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
                        Verse 43
                        I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.


                        Notice that He is basing the same judgment that he gave to those He calls sheep to those that he is calling goats, except the goats are being tossed into the Lake. Why? Because they did not do to him what the righteous did to Him.

                        Verse 44
                        Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

                        Likened to the "righteous" in verse 37, the wicked asked Him when did they not aid Him.

                        verse 45
                        Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did [it] not to one of the least of these, ye did [it] not to me.

                        Again, like verse 40, the wicked are judged on their treatment of "the least of these", a reference back to His brethern. Who are His brethern? The believers.

                        Now I ask you, if the treatment of the believers is the basis for the King separating the nations, how are the believers a part of the nations that are being judged?
                        Out of all that you wrote here I see nothing that explains how the sheep could be wicked nations and would also be called "the righteous". I don't believe it makes any sense at all that the sheep would be both wicked and righteous as you seem to be claiming. Remember, in verse 46 it is the righteous that inherit eternal life. Obviously, the wicked do not inherit eternal life. This means that "the righteous" only refers to believers.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by third hero View Post
                          Again, sheep is a metaphor. Jesus uses it to describe the condition of mankind. Man, like sheep, are helpless without a shepherd. He has labeled some of mankind as lost sheep. He has labelled his own people as lost sheep. The term sheep does not refer to the righteous, just to the condition of mankind.

                          So no, it does not contradict anything.
                          I showed you before that in Matthew 25:31-46 the sheep are the ones that Jesus also called the righteous. We can see that very clearly.

                          31When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
                          33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
                          34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
                          35For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
                          36Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
                          37Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?

                          The sheep and goats are separated with the sheep on His right hand. He talks to the sheep first. Then we see in verse 37 that they answer Him and they are called "the righteous". It's pretty obvious that He is calling the sheep "the righteous", wouldn't you agree?

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by third hero View Post
                            Look up the term, "Lost sheep", and we see a different scenario.

                            I have gone astray like a lost sheep; seek thy servant; for I do not forget thy commandments. Psalm 119:176

                            My people hath been lost sheep: their shepherds have caused them to go astray, they have turned them away [on] the mountains: they have gone from mountain to hill, they have forgotten their restingplace. Jeremiah 50:6

                            But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Matthew 10:6

                            Who are these lost sheep? Are they righteous, or lost? Are they saved, or lost? The idea of sheep being lost tells me that the term sheep is not exclusive to the saved or the righteous.
                            I believe you've missed something here, though. In Matthew 25:32 the separation of the sheep and goats is compared to how a shepherd separates "his sheep from the goats". This means that Jesus was implying that the sheep are His while the goats are not. The lost sheep are lost because they don't have the right shepherd. The lost sheep follow wrong shepherds who lead them astray as Jeremiah 50:6 talks about. Matthew 25:31-46 only speaks of sheep that belong to Jesus. None of them are lost because they are His.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by threebigrocks View Post
                              This has got to be the most interesting interpretation of this piece of scripture i've ever seen.

                              The righteous are the ones who did these things for the least of these: clothed the naked, fed the hungry, gave water to those who are thirsty, visited the sick and those in prison.
                              So, everyone in jail, who is sick, who is a stranger, who is starving is Lord Jesus's brethern? Interesting indeed. One of the things that I use to interpret scripture is the material present. I do not add my own beliefs into scripture, as that would cloud the interpretation. I do not add scripture to what is there for that same reason. Like I have shown all of you here, I have taken one passage, read what is there, and interpret based on what is there. The results are what you are arguing against right now.


                              The least of these are those who these things were given to or done for. They are without. It's the homeless guy under the bridge, the family who's foodstamps ran out in two weeks and mom and dad are out of work, it's those dying alone and unable to care for themselves, it's those who need a drink of clean water because they are thirsty, it's those who are locked up in prison because of sin.
                              That is your interpretation. My interpretation is that when the Lord states that "least of these MY BREETHERN", He is talking about the believers. Prisoners are not His unless they have chosen to follow Him. The starving are not His unless they acknowledge Him as Lord and Savior. The homeless are not His unless they call Him their Savior. The words, "my brethern" shows the entire point of His judgment. The people are judged based on their treatment of His people, the believers.

                              Those who didn't do these things to those who were in need - are the goats. Those who did - are the sheep. Goats go into eternal punishment, the sheep who are righteous into eternal life.

                              If sheep did the same thing as goats, wouldn't they be goats? If those sheep are unrighteous (as you said they didn't do what the righteous did, that would make them unrighteous) why would they escape the same judgement of the goats?

                              We are for Him or against Him. Not just sort of or kinda.
                              Again, you are reading your interpretation of sheep into the passage, which leads to misinterpretation. You see sheep and you automatically think "Believer". I do not think that way. I see sheep in the context in which it is written. Sometimes it means the Believer, sometimes it means the way God views people. It is not limited to just one definition.

                              Now, because you are hung up on the term sheep, you do not agree that the people who are being judged are the people of he world, sans the Believers. No matter what I say, because you are hung up on sheep, we will not agree. Therefore, I say, just so that no one gets irritated, that we just agree to disagree.... either that or show me how I am wrong in saying that the judgment here is based on the people's treatment of the Lord's Brethern. Because verse 40 and 45 are the basis for me writing what I have written.

                              So are you talking about sheep or lost sheep? That makes a huge difference. Are you not considered a sheep that follows Christ, as I am? Then wouldn't that put you in the sheep category? His sheep hear His voice and they follow Him. A lost sheep can't hear His voice, because it's wandered from the flock. You said in the first post of yours I quoted above that the brethren are the sheep.

                              So, which is it? Lost or not?
                              Are the sheep that are lost, are they sheep? Whether they are lost or found, are they all still not sheep? This is the hang up that happens when one is stuck on sheep. I have shown scriptures that show sheep as being lost, a concept that is foreign to those who believe that all sheep are saved sheep.

                              If I was worshipping the Lord, and I turn around and backslide, am I a sheep? If I am, then I am a lost sheep. If someone who is classified as a sheep sins against God, for that moment until they repent, they are lost. If a sheep dies in sin, then I guess they turn into goats. So which one is it? You tell me. I am not hung up on sheep, as I know that humans are capable of being anything, including sheep, including goats, including sheep that turn into goats, including goats that turn into sheep.

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