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  • Poll: End-time verses

    There's quite a few newer members posting recently (hello all!), and being the person I am, I like to know something about the people I read the posts of or converse with in threads. That being said, I want to get as much feedback on the following verses. As per rules, and personal restraints, I won't be elaborating much on my own beliefs on these verses; I simply want to get a general idea of how people on the boards interpret these, especially in the light that most of the forum users could be called "futurists".

    Think of this as a poll, but you can be elaborate with your responses, and the poll choices are as numerous as the number of you. If you're a new user, I very much want your input; but if you're an older user, you're just as welcome to jump in.

    Please restrict yourself to one post when explaining what you believe about the verses. You can post as much as you want, and make as many posts as you want discussion-wise, but please, when/if you make a post about the following verses, keep it to one post, not multiple posts in a row.
    _____________

    Matthew 10:23 "When they persecute you in one town, flee to the next, for truly, I say to you, you will not have gone through all the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes."

    Matthew 16:27-28 "For the Son of Man is about to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay each person according to what he has done. Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom."

    Matthew 24:34 "Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place."

    Luke 21:22 "... for these are days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written."

    Luke 21:28 "Now when these things begin to take place, straighten up and raise your heads, because your redemption is drawing near."

    Acts 2:16-17 "But this is what was uttered through the prophet Joel, '"And in the last days it shall be, God declares, that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh, and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams"'" [Used as a defense for why Peter and the apostles were speaking in tongues on that very day.]

    Romans 13:11-12 Besides this you know the time, that the hour has come for you to wake from sleep. For salvation is nearer to us now than when we first believed. The night is far gone; the day is at hand.

    1 Corinthians 7:29 This is what I mean, brothers: the appointed time has grown very short.

    1 Corinthians 10:11 Now these things happened to them as an example, but they were written down for our instruction, on whom the end of the ages has come.

    Hebrews 1:1-2 Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world.

    Hebrews 9:26 But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

    Hebrews 10:37 For, "Yet a little while, and the coming one will come and will not delay."

    James 5:1-3 Come now, you rich, weep and howl for the miseries that are coming upon you. Your riches have rotted and your garments are moth-eaten. Your gold and silver have corroded, and their corrosion will be evidence against you and will eat your flesh like fire. You have laid up treasure in the last days.

    James 5:7-8 Be patient, therefore, brothers, until the coming of the Lord. See how the farmer waits for the precious fruit of the earth, being patient about it, until it receives the early and the late rains. You also, be patient. Establish your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand.

    1 Peter 1:20 He was foreknown before the foundation of the world but was made manifest in the last times for the sake of you.

    1 Peter 4:7 The end of all things is at hand...

    1 John 2:18 Children, it is the last hour, and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come. Therefore we know that it is the last hour.

    Revelation 1:1 The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants the things that must soon take place.

    Revelation 1:3 Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear, and who keep what is written in it, for the time is near.

    Revelation 1:19 Write therefore the things that you have seen, those that are and those that are about to take place after this.

    Revelation 3:11 I am coming soon.

    Revelation 22:6 And he said to me, "These words are trustworthy and true. And the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, has sent his angel to show his servants what must soon take place."

    Revelation 22:7 "And behold, I am coming soon. Blessed is the one who keeps the words of the prophecy of this book."

    Revelation 22:10 And he said to me, "Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near."

    Revelation 22:12 "Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense with me, to repay everyone for what he has done."

    Revelation 22:20 He who testifies to these things says, "Surely I am coming soon." Amen. Come, Lord Jesus!

    [Sidenote: These are from a listing of verses I have written down. The listing is much more extensive than this, but to save space and time for each of us, I cut it down to just these.]
    To This Day

  • #2
    Originally posted by markedward View Post
    There's quite a few newer members posting recently (hello all!), and being the person I am, I like to know something about the people I read the posts of or converse with in threads. That being said, I want to get as much feedback on the following verses. As per rules, and personal restraints, I won't be elaborating much on my own beliefs on these verses; I simply want to get a general idea of how people on the boards interpret these, especially in the light that most of the forum users could be called "futurists".

    Think of this as a poll, but you can be elaborate with your responses, and the poll choices are as numerous as the number of you. If you're a new user, I very much want your input; but if you're an older user, you're just as welcome to jump in.

    Please restrict yourself to one post when explaining what you believe about the verses. You can post as much as you want, and make as many posts as you want discussion-wise, but please, when/if you make a post about the following verses, keep it to one post, not multiple posts in a row.
    _____________

    Matthew 10:23 "When they persecute you in one town, flee to the next, for truly, I say to you, you will not have gone through all the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes."

    Matthew 16:27-28 "For the Son of Man is about to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay each person according to what he has done. Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom."

    Matthew 24:34 "Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place."

    Luke 21:22 "... for these are days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written."

    Luke 21:28 "Now when these things begin to take place, straighten up and raise your heads, because your redemption is drawing near."

    Acts 2:16-17 "But this is what was uttered through the prophet Joel, '"And in the last days it shall be, God declares, that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh, and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams"'" [Used as a defense for why Peter and the apostles were speaking in tongues on that very day.]

    Romans 13:11-12 Besides this you know the time, that the hour has come for you to wake from sleep. For salvation is nearer to us now than when we first believed. The night is far gone; the day is at hand.

    1 Corinthians 7:29 This is what I mean, brothers: the appointed time has grown very short.

    1 Corinthians 10:11 Now these things happened to them as an example, but they were written down for our instruction, on whom the end of the ages has come.

    Hebrews 1:1-2 Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world.

    Hebrews 9:26 But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

    Hebrews 10:37 For, "Yet a little while, and the coming one will come and will not delay."

    James 5:1-3 Come now, you rich, weep and howl for the miseries that are coming upon you. Your riches have rotted and your garments are moth-eaten. Your gold and silver have corroded, and their corrosion will be evidence against you and will eat your flesh like fire. You have laid up treasure in the last days.

    James 5:7-8 Be patient, therefore, brothers, until the coming of the Lord. See how the farmer waits for the precious fruit of the earth, being patient about it, until it receives the early and the late rains. You also, be patient. Establish your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand.

    1 Peter 1:20 He was foreknown before the foundation of the world but was made manifest in the last times for the sake of you.

    1 Peter 4:7 The end of all things is at hand...

    1 John 2:18 Children, it is the last hour, and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come. Therefore we know that it is the last hour.

    Revelation 1:1 The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants the things that must soon take place.

    Revelation 1:3 Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear, and who keep what is written in it, for the time is near.

    Revelation 1:19 Write therefore the things that you have seen, those that are and those that are about to take place after this.

    Revelation 3:11 I am coming soon.

    Revelation 22:6 And he said to me, "These words are trustworthy and true. And the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, has sent his angel to show his servants what must soon take place."

    Revelation 22:7 "And behold, I am coming soon. Blessed is the one who keeps the words of the prophecy of this book."

    Revelation 22:10 And he said to me, "Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near."

    Revelation 22:12 "Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense with me, to repay everyone for what he has done."

    Revelation 22:20 He who testifies to these things says, "Surely I am coming soon." Amen. Come, Lord Jesus!

    [Sidenote: These are from a listing of verses I have written down. The listing is much more extensive than this, but to save space and time for each of us, I cut it down to just these.]
    Hello, Markedward. This is certainly not a short list, and I doubt that I'll touch on each of these. What I'll do first is explain why I see things in general the way I do, and then I'll touch on some of the verses you mentioned.

    Much of how I read many NT passages comes from how I read Dan 7, specifically the part about the Son of Man coming on the clouds.

    Dan 7:13
    I saw in the night visions,
    and behold, with the clouds of heaven
    there came one like a son of man,
    and he came to the Ancient of Days
    and was presented before him. (ESV)

    Here, the Son of Man is coming, not FROM the Ancient of Days, but TO Him. Christ is coming to the Father. And for what purpose?

    Dan 7:14
    And to him was given dominion
    and glory and a kingdom,
    that all peoples, nations, and languages
    should serve him;
    his dominion is an everlasting dominion,
    which shall not pass away,
    and his kingdom one
    that shall not be destroyed.

    Christ came to the Father to be given dominion, glory and a kingdom. In this passage, Christ is not coming from Heaven to earth. Rather, He is coming from earth to Heaven.

    I believe that verse 13 (for the most part) happened when Christ ascended into Heaven (he was taken up in the clouds). But the rest of this happens once Christ is in Heaven, and not on the way up. And since it is happening in Heaven, it is not restricted by time (just as in Psalm 2 "You are my son, today I have begotten you". When is the "today" when the Father begets the Son? It has ALWAYS been "today" in eternity).

    So when the NT refers to the "Son of Man coming in the clouds", it is not meaning that Christ is coming back to earth. Rather, it is a manifestation of his dominion, glory, and kingdom over those who oppose Him.

    But I don't believe that it's restricted to one event, necessarily. Jesus quoted it with reference to the destruction of the temple. I find that preterists go wrong when they assume that any time the NT has the terminology "Son of Man coming in the clouds", it refers to the same event, as if that could only have one fulfillment in time.

    Revelation uses the terminology in the first chapter. For that reason, preterists link it to the first century destruction of the temple. But I don't think that is necessary.

    Matt 10:23 Probably referring to 70AD, when Jesus' coming to the Father was manifest to the Judeans who rejected Him and put Him to death.

    Matt 16:27-28 As for the second verse, I think it refers to something in their future far enough away where many of them would die, but near enough where some would still be alive. If it were the transfiguration, it wouldn't make much sense for Him to say "some of you won't die this week". I believe it refers to 70AD. As for verse 27, I don't have a complete theology for how judgement works out in this age. Hebrews says "it is appointed for men to die once, and then the judgement". So it might refer to our judgement after we die, before Christ returns.

    Matt 24:34 I believe that the entire Olivet Discourse (in all three accounts) is referring solely to the destruction of the temple by the Romans in the first century. "This generation" is the generation that Jesus gave the "woes" to in chapter 23 of Matt, the generation living at that time.

    Acts 2:16-17 I believe that that day completely fulfilled what Joel prophesied centuries before that. The "last days" were at hand. The Spirit came in full. I don't believe that the Scriptures teach an "end times outpouring of the Spirit". He came in full on the day of Pentacost.

    Rom 13:11-12 It could refer to a lot of things. To be sure, the end is nearer with every second that goes by, so maybe he meant that Christ's return draws nearer all the time. It might refer to the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem, since Jews were some of the major persecutors of Christians for multiple decades in the first century. It might refer to approaching death, when we go to be with Christ (assuming that we go to be with Christ after death).

    For the passages about "the end of the ages", I believe that it refers to the time when Christ was on earth and those living at that time. That, or perhaps to the period of time after Christ's first coming when we're living in God's kingdom. Abraham and the prophets longed to see the days when Christ would walk the earth.

    I think that the rest of the "coming" passages are relative to what the audience was experiencing, especially Revelation. Christ's coming to the Father (the only type of "coming" that is mentioned) is manifested to us when Christ's victory over our enemies (which has already been accomplished) is made evident to us.

    When it comes to the passages in Revelation, I don't think it has one fulfillment. I believe that it refers to the original first century audience. I believe that it also refers to all of God's people since then who have been persecuted by Satan's kingdom, when God's kingdom triumphs over Satan's kingdom. It will ultimately culminate when Christ's rule is complete, and every enemy has been put under His feet (what we'd call "The Second Coming"). At that time every manifestation of Satan's kingdom is thrown down, and death and hades (the abode of the dead, the same as Hebrew "sheol"), along with Satan himself, are thrown into the lake of fire.

    That last paragraph more or less sums up my view on all of those Revelation verses that you brought up.

    Since I'm about to hit "submit", I hope that that was what you were looking for.

    Comment


    • #3
      Let's see:

      2 Peter 3:8
      "
      8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day."

      I think most of the verses in the OP are not contradictory at all when weighed against the verse above. It is a fair question, was Jesus pulling his followers leg when he said everything would happen soon from his viewpoint, and disregard their viewpoint? In my opinion, not at all. Those who followed his advice were able to prepare for the destruction and save themselves and probably didn't hold a grudge against Jesus.

      Verses that seem contradicting:

      Matthew 16:27-28 "For the Son of Man is about to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay each person according to what he has done. Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom."

      Matthew 17 reveals what Jesus was talking about. Peter, James and his brother John see a glimpse of the future kingdom:

      1And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,
      2And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
      3And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.


      Matthew 24:34 "Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place."

      29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
      30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
      31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
      32Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

      33So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.


      34Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

      What is "this generation"? There is a generation, which shall not pass before the fullfillment of the things mentioned. After telling the sings of his coming "this generation" would see, he refers to his audience "likewise ye". It's logical to assume that the audience should likewise look for the sings, just like "this generation" Jesus talks about. By following this logic his audience isn't "this generation".

      I didn't find other verses that seem contradictory if you follow the rule of thumb mentioned in the first verse.

      Comment


      • #4
        As Jesus most succinctly put it: "It is finished!"

        All that needed to be done is done. We are in the new age. We eagerly await Jesus' return, that hour is none of our business. Our job now is to fulfill the Great Commission until that time.
        In Christ,

        -- Rev

        “To preserve the government we must also preserve morals. Morality rests on religion; if you destroy the foundation, the superstructure must fall. When the public mind becomes vitiated and corrupt, laws are a nullity and constitutions are waste paper.” – Daniel Webster, 4th of July, 1800, Oration at Hanover, N.H.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by forum lurker View Post
          After telling the sings of his coming "this generation" would see, he refers to his audience "likewise ye".
          So... the "likewise ye" had absolutely nothing to do with the example he made of the fig-tree?

          Jesus pointed at the fig-tree and said, "When leaves start sprouting, you know spring is near. Likewise you will know when 'the end of the age' is near when you see the previous things I explained begin to happen." I think a basic reading of what Jesus was saying is that He was making a comparison between the fig-tree and the signs it exhibited when spring was near and His generation and the signs it exhibited when the "end of the age" was near.

          Something to think about.
          To This Day

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by markedward View Post
            So... the "likewise ye" had absolutely nothing to do with the example he made of the fig-tree?

            Jesus pointed at the fig-tree and said, "When leaves start sprouting, you know spring is near. Likewise you will know when 'the end of the age' is near when you see the previous things I explained begin to happen." I think a basic reading of what Jesus was saying is that He was making a comparison between the fig-tree and the signs it exhibited when spring was near and His generation and the signs it exhibited when the "end of the age" was near.

            Something to think about.
            I've thought about it, and I think you are correct. However, it doesn't talk about "His generation". I was trying to find a point which would prove that (with my poor English skills) but I agree, it isn't there.

            Still, I see no contradiction. IMO "this generation" is a reference to the generation which would see the signs Jesus talks about. He could have said "Your generation" after all, if that was His message.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by markedward View Post
              There's quite a few newer members posting recently (hello all!), and being the person I am, I like to know something about the people I read the posts of or converse with in threads. That being said, I want to get as much feedback on the following verses. As per rules, and personal restraints, I won't be elaborating much on my own beliefs on these verses; I simply want to get a general idea of how people on the boards interpret these, especially in the light that most of the forum users could be called "futurists".

              Think of this as a poll, but you can be elaborate with your responses, and the poll choices are as numerous as the number of you. If you're a new user, I very much want your input; but if you're an older user, you're just as welcome to jump in.

              Please restrict yourself to one post when explaining what you believe about the verses. You can post as much as you want, and make as many posts as you want discussion-wise, but please, when/if you make a post about the following verses, keep it to one post, not multiple posts in a row.
              _____________

              Matthew 10:23 "When they persecute you in one town, flee to the next, for truly, I say to you, you will not have gone through all the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes."

              Matthew 16:27-28 "For the Son of Man is about to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay each person according to what he has done. Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom."

              Matthew 24:34 "Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place."

              Luke 21:22 "... for these are days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written."

              Luke 21:28 "Now when these things begin to take place, straighten up and raise your heads, because your redemption is drawing near."

              Acts 2:16-17 "But this is what was uttered through the prophet Joel, '"And in the last days it shall be, God declares, that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh, and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams"'" [Used as a defense for why Peter and the apostles were speaking in tongues on that very day.]

              Romans 13:11-12 Besides this you know the time, that the hour has come for you to wake from sleep. For salvation is nearer to us now than when we first believed. The night is far gone; the day is at hand.

              1 Corinthians 7:29 This is what I mean, brothers: the appointed time has grown very short.

              1 Corinthians 10:11 Now these things happened to them as an example, but they were written down for our instruction, on whom the end of the ages has come.

              Hebrews 1:1-2 Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world.

              Hebrews 9:26 But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

              Hebrews 10:37 For, "Yet a little while, and the coming one will come and will not delay."

              James 5:1-3 Come now, you rich, weep and howl for the miseries that are coming upon you. Your riches have rotted and your garments are moth-eaten. Your gold and silver have corroded, and their corrosion will be evidence against you and will eat your flesh like fire. You have laid up treasure in the last days.

              James 5:7-8 Be patient, therefore, brothers, until the coming of the Lord. See how the farmer waits for the precious fruit of the earth, being patient about it, until it receives the early and the late rains. You also, be patient. Establish your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand.

              1 Peter 1:20 He was foreknown before the foundation of the world but was made manifest in the last times for the sake of you.

              1 Peter 4:7 The end of all things is at hand...

              1 John 2:18 Children, it is the last hour, and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come. Therefore we know that it is the last hour.

              Revelation 1:1 The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants the things that must soon take place.

              Revelation 1:3 Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear, and who keep what is written in it, for the time is near.

              Revelation 1:19 Write therefore the things that you have seen, those that are and those that are about to take place after this.

              Revelation 3:11 I am coming soon.

              Revelation 22:6 And he said to me, "These words are trustworthy and true. And the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, has sent his angel to show his servants what must soon take place."

              Revelation 22:7 "And behold, I am coming soon. Blessed is the one who keeps the words of the prophecy of this book."

              Revelation 22:10 And he said to me, "Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near."

              Revelation 22:12 "Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense with me, to repay everyone for what he has done."

              Revelation 22:20 He who testifies to these things says, "Surely I am coming soon." Amen. Come, Lord Jesus!

              [Sidenote: These are from a listing of verses I have written down. The listing is much more extensive than this, but to save space and time for each of us, I cut it down to just these.]
              These verses are variously referring to Jesus ministry, the destruction of Jerusalem (70 AD), Jesus' crucifixion, the second coming.
              Last edited by DurbanDude; Jan 2nd 2009, 03:06 PM. Reason: Edit

              Comment


              • #8
                There's quite a few newer members posting recently (hello all!)
                Hello to you and a New Year full of blessings!

                I'm what you perhaps might call a non-futurist amill.
                _____________

                Matthew 10:23 "When they persecute you in one town, flee to the next, for truly, I say to you, you will not have gone through all the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes."

                This task of the apostles has later on been extended from "Israel" to the whole world. Matt. 24:9b, 14.

                Matthew 16:27-28 "For the Son of Man is about to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay each person according to what he has done. Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom."

                Paraphrase: Some of them who are standing here will keep my word and not taste death (in the meaning of John 8:52) but living -- although they may have died in the meantime -- enter the kingdom of heaven at the coming of the Son of Man (Second Coming).

                Matthew 24:34 "Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place."

                The context is here the Second Coming. The verse is a threat that the generation that heard Jesus preach but did not believe will be eternally judged (Matt. 23:33,36). "All these things" = everything that will happen including the Second Coming. "Pass away" is not "die" but "disappear". This generation will not disappear to escape their eternal judgment although heaven and earth will disappear at the Second Coming.

                Luke 21:22 "... for these are days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written."

                This is about 70 AD.

                Luke 21:28 "Now when these things begin to take place, straighten up and raise your heads, because your redemption is drawing near."

                The redemption of the Second Coming.

                Acts 2:16-17 "But this is what was uttered through the prophet Joel, '"And in the last days it shall be, God declares, that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh, and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams"'"


                This started at Pentecost.

                Romans 13:11-12 Besides this you know the time, that the hour has come for you to wake from sleep. For salvation is nearer to us now than when we first believed. The night is far gone; the day is at hand.

                These "soon" texts do not mean that it will be chronologically soon. It is existential. With the cross and resurrection of Christ and his entering his heavenly kingdom people stand now with much more responsibility than ever before a radical choice. Do we believe and follow Him or don't we. The Last Judgment is at hand! John 3:36.

                The same in these verses:

                1 Corinthians 7:29 This is what I mean, brothers: the appointed time has grown very short.
                Hebrews 10:37 For, "Yet a little while, and the coming one will come and will not delay."
                James 5:7-8 Be patient, therefore, brothers, until the coming of the Lord. See how the farmer waits for the precious fruit of the earth, being patient about it, until it receives the early and the late rains. You also, be patient. Establish your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand.
                1 Peter 4:7 The end of all things is at hand...
                Revelation 1:1 The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants the things that must soon take place.
                Revelation 1:3 Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear, and who keep what is written in it, for the time is near.
                Revelation 3:11 I am coming soon.
                Revelation 22:6 And he said to me, "These words are trustworthy and true. And the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, has sent his angel to show his servants what must soon take place."
                Revelation 22:7 "And behold, I am coming soon. Blessed is the one who keeps the words of the prophecy of this book."
                Revelation 22:10 And he said to me, "Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near."
                Revelation 22:12 "Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense with me, to repay everyone for what he has done."
                Revelation 22:20 He who testifies to these things says, "Surely I am coming soon." Amen. Come, Lord Jesus!


                1 Corinthians 10:11 Now these things happened to them as an example, but they were written down for our instruction, on whom the end of the ages has come.
                The end of the ages is the time between the first and second coming of Christ.

                The same in these verses:

                Hebrews 1:1-2 Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world.
                Hebrews 9:26 But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
                James 5:1-3 Come now, you rich, weep and howl for the miseries that are coming upon you. Your riches have rotted and your garments are moth-eaten. Your gold and silver have corroded, and their corrosion will be evidence against you and will eat your flesh like fire. You have laid up treasure in the last days.
                1 Peter 1:20 He was foreknown before the foundation of the world but was made manifest in the last times for the sake of you.

                1 John 2:18 Children, it is the last hour, and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come. Therefore we know that it is the last hour.
                The last hour is the time between the first and second coming of Christ. The antichrist are, according to John, the false prophets and teachers in that period.

                Revelation 1:19 Write therefore the things that you have seen, those that are and those that are about to take place after this.

                A division in ch. 1 / ch. 2-3 / ch. 4-22 is rather on the surface.
                "The things that you have seen" = the visions John saw in Revelation.
                "The things that are" = the truth about the Lord Jesus Christ, King of kings and Lord of lords.
                "The things that are about to take place" = the things that the Lord is doing and will do in the future.

                Kind regards,
                Dik

                Comment


                • #9
                  This task of the apostles has later on been extended from "Israel" to the whole world. Matt. 24:9b, 14.
                  But this requires interpreting the verse of Matthew 10 as being a "task" that was assigned to the apostles. It reads more as a mere statement of fact, not an assignment of task.


                  Paraphrase: Some of them who are standing here will keep my word and not taste death (in the meaning of John 8:52) but living -- although they may have died in the meantime -- enter the kingdom of heaven at the coming of the Son of Man (Second Coming).
                  There's a reason I don't trust paraphrases. The way you have written this is drastically different than what is naturally read from the verses in question, in nearly all English translations. Your paraphrase is claiming that Jesus said, "Some of you standing here will not die spiritually and enter the kingdom of heaven." The actual text states, "Some of you standing here will not die before the kingdom of heaven comes." Those read of very differently; the entire meaning of the passage is altered in your paraphrase.


                  The context is here the Second Coming. The verse is a threat that the generation that heard Jesus preach but did not believe will be eternally judged (Matt. 23:33,36). "All these things" = everything that will happen including the Second Coming. "Pass away" is not "die" but "disappear". This generation will not disappear to escape their eternal judgment although heaven and earth will disappear at the Second Coming.
                  The verse said nothing about escaping eternal judgment. The natural reading is that "this generation" (whichever generation it is) would be the one to see the Coming. Meaning, "the coming of the Son of Man" will take place before "this generation" has entirely "passed away" ("died out" or "disappeared", regardless).

                  This is about 70 AD.

                  The redemption of the Second Coming.
                  You're giving me mixed signals here. Verse 21:22 is about 70 AD... yet verse 21:28 is about "the second coming". But... verse 21:28 says that when you see "these things begin to take place" - including 21:22 - that "redemption" would be "near". So... are you saying that the Second Coming was "near" to the "days of vengeance" of 70 AD?

                  These "soon" texts do not mean that it will be chronologically soon.
                  Why would they use chronologically related words or phrases ("soon", "at hand", "the time is near", etc.) if they weren't speaking of things happening in a timeframe?
                  The end of the ages is the time between the first and second coming of Christ.
                  Just to make sure I understand, you're saying that "the end of the age[s]" and "the last hour" and "the last days" are equal to, roughly, a third of the amount of time mankind has even existed?

                  A division in ch. 1 / ch. 2-3 / ch. 4-22 is rather on the surface.
                  I didn't say anything about a three-part division between these chapters...

                  But, thank you for your in-depth response.
                  To This Day

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by DurbanDude View Post
                    These verses are variously referring to Jesus ministry, the destruction of Jerusalem (70 AD), Jesus' crucifixion, the second coming.
                    Would you care to elaborate on specific verses?
                    To This Day

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by markedward View Post
                      Matthew 10:23 "When they persecute you in one town, flee to the next, for truly, I say to you, you will not have gone through all the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes."
                      This was to the church, the Son of Man was already there, saying those words, so Jesus must be referring to the preaching of the word before the second coming.

                      The bible says elsewhere that when He comes again every eye will see Him , He will come on the clouds in glory with all His angels and us saints will all be resurrected. This definitely has not occurred yet, Jesus must be referring to the current restored Israel and the preaching to the Jews that is going to intensify in the last days eg the two witnesses are there preaching to Jews during the last 3.5 years.

                      Matthew 16:27-28 "For the Son of Man is about to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay each person according to what he has done. Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom."
                      Referring to spiritual death, he knew that some listening to His words would become saved and be part of the resurrection of the second coming. He also knew that in a few days 3 of His disciples would witness Jesus being transfigured and see a likeness of Jesus' glory at the coming.

                      Matthew 24:34 "Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place."
                      The generation that was to experience the signs that precede the second coming will experience the second coming.

                      Luke 21:22 for these are days of avenging, that all the things that are written may be accomplished.
                      21:23 But woe to them that are with child and to them who give suck in those days, for there shall be great distress upon the land and wrath upon this people.
                      21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of [the] nations until [the] times of [the] nations be fulfilled.
                      Luke 21:22 obviously isn't saying that all prophecy is fulfilled when Jerusalem is destroyed in 70 AD, because two verses later there is a prophecy about the period of time after Jerusalem is destroyed. This prophecy speaks of the diaspora, and the time of the nations. So the "days of avenging" must be referring to the destruction of Jerusalem and also the long period of the dispersion of the Jews, and the times of the gentiles, if we read 21:22 in context with 21:24.
                      Last edited by DurbanDude; Jan 2nd 2009, 10:10 PM. Reason: Edit

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                      • #12
                        [quote]
                        Originally posted by markedward View Post
                        But this requires interpreting the verse of Matthew 10 as being a "task" that was assigned to the apostles. It reads more as a mere statement of fact, not an assignment of task.
                        Originally posted by markedward View Post
                        DIK: The whole chapter is full of imperatives with a few predictions in between. The task of preaching to Israel is an imperative too, a command:

                        Matt. 10:5-6 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

                        There's a reason I don't trust paraphrases. The way you have written this is drastically different than what is naturally read from the verses in question, in nearly all English translations. Your paraphrase is claiming that Jesus said, "Some of you standing here will not die spiritually and enter the kingdom of heaven." The actual text states, "Some of you standing here will not die before the kingdom of heaven comes." Those read of very differently; the entire meaning of the passage is altered in your paraphrase.
                        My paraphrasing is a brief way of explaining. With "Some of you standing here will not die before the kingdom of heaven comes." we are not much wiser. In that case there is only a statement, not an interpretation. And an interpretation -- my opinion on the verse -- was asked for, you know.

                        The verse said nothing about escaping eternal judgment. The natural reading is that "this generation" (whichever generation it is) would be the one to see the Coming. Meaning, "the coming of the Son of Man" will take place before "this generation" has entirely "passed away" ("died out" or "disappeared", regardless).
                        IMHO that is not a "natural" reading. "This generation" is everywhere else in the Gospels "this Jewish generation of Jesus' time" that does not believe. I haven't said anything about "escaping eternal judgment", only about "not escaping eternal judgment". This eternal judgment is clearly implied in the next verse about the passing away of heaven and earth at the Second Coming:

                        Matt. 24:34-35 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

                        See also Matt. 23:33-36 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell? [...] Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

                        You're giving me mixed signals here. Verse 21:22 is about 70 AD... yet verse 21:28 is about "the second coming". But... verse 21:28 says that when you see "these things begin to take place" - including 21:22 - that "redemption" would be "near". So... are you saying that the Second Coming was "near" to the "days of vengeance" of 70 AD?
                        Luke 21 is the only account of the three parallel accounts that is in chronological order. Luke 21:22 is about 70 AD. Luke 21:24 tells about what happens after 70 AD and goes on to the time of the Second Coming, the end of the times of the Gentiles. "These things" (elsewhere in the Gospels usually a global, imprecise expression) in this context is not the same as "ALL these things". Given the long time-period in Luke 21:24 it is quite logical that "these things" cannot here refer right back to the beginning, but only to vs. 25-27. I can see no problems here.

                        Why would they use chronologically related words or phrases ("soon", "at hand", "the time is near", etc.) if they weren't speaking of things happening in a timeframe?
                        This is a complicated question but let me give a simple answer.
                        (1) The date of the Second Coming is stated to be completely unknown so nobody can make any calculations as to near or far away.
                        (2) See Matt. 23:48-50 --

                        But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
                        And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
                        The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,

                        I conclude: one has to be a bad servant to think that the Second Coming is temporally far away. Far and near is not calendar time, it is bound up with the attitude of our hearts. So it is not calendar time but existential. Augustine already saw this (Letter to Bishop Hesychius).

                        Just to make sure I understand, you're saying that "the end of the age[s]" and "the last hour" and "the last days" are equal to, roughly, a third of the amount of time mankind has even existed?
                        Apart from the difficult question how long mankind has existed I infer from the NT that such expressions are indeed about the time between the first and the second coming of our Lord, the "Gospel time" or "Intermediate Period". I hope this is clear to you...

                        I didn't say anything about a three-part division between these chapters...
                        Well, you wanted...

                        "to get as much feedback on the following verses".


                        Didn't you?

                        But, thank you for your in-depth response.
                        You're welcome.

                        Dik

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by markedward View Post
                          You're giving me mixed signals here. Verse 21:22 is about 70 AD... yet verse 21:28 is about "the second coming". But... verse 21:28 says that when you see "these things begin to take place" - including 21:22 - that "redemption" would be "near". So... are you saying that the Second Coming was "near" to the "days of vengeance" of 70 AD?
                          In what sense would Jesus have wanted them to lift up their heads in 70 AD and in what sense did they receive redemption in 70 AD?

                          Also, you should notice that the context of verse 28 is global and not regional like verse 22.

                          Luke 21
                          25And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; 26Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
                          27And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
                          28And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

                          I believe when he speaks of "these things" beginning to come to pass he is only referring to the distress of nations and those things coming on the earth and not to the things that would occur in Jerusalem in 70 AD.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            That's a good idea getting to know folks and it is a very, very VERY long list! I'm not new but as you know I'm getting to be pretty dispensational, pre-trib, pre-mill, 1000 yr kingdom, new earth and heavens, eternity! (so, since I'm not new I'll wait awhile to answer) It is a great idea getting to know folks, where they stand. Great post!
                            I have a Blog. Please visit!

                            My Blog http://bibleforums.org/forum/blog.php?b=537

                            Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life!

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Markedward,

                              You state a main objective as being your desire to short circuit the ‘getting to know you’ procedure in respect of newcomers and, at less than 10 posts, I’m sure in that category.
                              However, I have a problem in that the predominance of ‘me’ is to subordinate Theological Dogma to walking the path of faith with simple childlike trust.
                              Eschatological assertion is therefore very much on the back burner for me so you’ll have to discover the remainder of ‘me’ in another thread otherwise I will be acused of straying off topic if I unfold too much of the burden of my calling in this particular thread.
                              So what I’ll do is to open up a ‘this is part of me’ thread entitled ‘Parables, analogies, and Metaphores’ in an appropriate board as soon as I am entitled to do so.
                              Such a thread should at least explain why Theological Dogma in all areas (not just eschatology) is something that figures low in my priorities.
                              That’s the nearest I can get in terms of eschatology to telling you something about myself as a new member.
                              See ya soon.....somewhere else.

                              Diebamted21
                              Last edited by Diebamted21; Jan 11th 2009, 02:51 AM. Reason: text formatting

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