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  • Confused about Armagedon and 1,000 reign of Jesus

    If Armagedon happens first and everyone is killed, where do the people who live during the 1,000 reign come from. And aren't the 144,000 only Jews. I'm very confused.

  • #2
    Depends on who you ask, I will give you my answer from a pre trib perspective. Of the ones who survive the GT, and live into the Millennial reign of Christ, will be those who accepted Christ. Most believers will be killed during the GT, however, some will survive and be those who repopulate the earth during that Millennial time frame. Those who survive the GT and live to see Christ Second Advent will be taken from the earth and not live into the Millennial as Rev 20 says "they did not live again" until the 1000 years was done and they (unbelievers)will be the ones also suffering the second death when as described later in Rev the earth gives up her dead and they are all judged.


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    • #3
      Originally posted by catlover View Post
      If Armagedon happens first and everyone is killed, where do the people who live during the 1,000 reign come from. And aren't the 144,000 only Jews. I'm very confused.
      Being an Amill, I say the 1000 year reign comes first because it is the Church Age, then Armagedon. I believe Rev. 16:16 is the same as Rev. 20:8-9.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by catlover View Post
        If Armagedon happens first and everyone is killed, where do the people who live during the 1,000 reign come from. And aren't the 144,000 only Jews. I'm very confused.
        god doesnt want you to be confused, remember that people who believe in christ are his body and his body will not be divided. dont listen to anyone except the spirit. there are many decievers out there whether they know it or not,they ignore plain scripture and draw many to themselfs, so if someone tells you that old test saints have to wait until the very end to be glorified, they have no understanding. heb 11:40. god bless and good luck!

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        • #5
          Originally posted by catlover View Post
          If Armagedon happens first and everyone is killed, where do the people who live during the 1,000 reign come from. And aren't the 144,000 only Jews. I'm very confused.
          You rightly understand that ALL on the earth are killed when Christ returns. All believers on earth which do not receive the mark are previously killed by the beast and the wicked remaining by Christ. Actually even the 144,000 which are Jews are killed as well or God would be a liar to his own word.

          There is no one to populate a supposed 1000 year reign. The resurrected will populate the eternal kingdom.


          Mark

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          • #6
            Originally posted by ross3421 View Post
            You rightly understand that ALL on the earth are killed when Christ returns. All believers on earth which do not receive the mark are previously killed by the beast and the wicked remaining by Christ. Actually even the 144,000 which are Jews are killed as well or God would be a liar to his own word.

            There is no one to populate a supposed 1000 year reign. The resurrected will populate the eternal kingdom.


            Mark
            amen to that and there is only one judgement one return one day one name one lord one god

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            • #7
              Originally posted by ross3421 View Post
              You rightly understand that ALL on the earth are killed when Christ returns. All believers on earth which do not receive the mark are previously killed by the beast and the wicked remaining by Christ.
              There are many verses that contradict this statement, and whenever they are quoted for some reason those who say that all will be killed have no answer for those verses.

              There is no verse that says all will be killed, I would like to see that so-called verse.

              In a similar thread third hero quoted the following verses to show there will be survivors:

              And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. Revelation 19:15

              As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time. Daniel 7:12

              And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom [is] an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him. Daniel 7:27

              Ask of me, and I shall give [thee] the heathen [for] thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth [for] thy possession. Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel. Psalm 2:8-9

              And it shall come to pass, [that] every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. Zechariah 14:16

              And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. Revelation 20:4

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              • #8
                Originally posted by catlover View Post
                If Armagedon happens first and everyone is killed, where do the people who live during the 1,000 reign come from. And aren't the 144,000 only Jews. I'm very confused.
                14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
                14:17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
                14:18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
                14:19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

                The heathen nations, those that were not resurrected at the second coming will be living then. They are the ungodly survivors of the second coming. The resurrected saints will also be living then, they will have eternal bodies and be reigning with Christ here on the transformed earth.
                Last edited by DurbanDude; Jan 7th 2009, 12:10 PM. Reason: spelling

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by catlover View Post
                  If Armagedon happens first and everyone is killed, where do the people who live during the 1,000 reign come from. And aren't the 144,000 only Jews. I'm very confused.
                  Hi catlover,
                  I believe it is as quiet dove says and I will also add that the 144,000 are Jews from the twelve tribes of Israel. The 144,000 Jews are protected by God during the tribulation period for they have been sealed by God.
                  John 8:31-32



                  31 Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. 32 And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”


                  Dizzy

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by DurbanDude View Post
                    There are many verses that contradict this statement, and whenever they are quoted for some reason those who say that all will be killed have no answer for those verses.
                    This is not true. You just don't agree with the answers we give.

                    There is no verse that says all will be killed, I would like to see that so-called verse.
                    2 Thess 1
                    7And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
                    8In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
                    9Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
                    10When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

                    Please explain how any unbelievers are not included among those who "know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ".

                    Luke 17
                    26And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
                    27They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
                    28Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
                    29But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
                    30Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

                    Just as all the unbelievers were killed in Lot and Noah's day "Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.".

                    2 Peter 3
                    10But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
                    11Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
                    12Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
                    13Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

                    I can't say how anyone would survive the burning up of the earth.

                    Rev 19
                    15And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
                    16And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
                    17And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
                    18That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

                    When it says "all men, both free and bond, both small and great" that means it's all-inclusive. All unbelievers will be killed.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by John146 View Post
                      This is not true. You just don't agree with the answers we give.
                      Rev 19
                      When it says "all men, both free and bond, both small and great" that means it's all-inclusive. All unbelievers will be killed.
                      But what about the passage DurbanDude quoted...it suggests that their will be many survivors from the nations. Isnt this speaking of the millennial reign?
                      14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
                      14:17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
                      14:18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
                      14:19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Grafted_In View Post
                        But what about the passage DurbanDude quoted...it suggests that their will be many survivors from the nations. Isnt this speaking of the millennial reign?
                        I don't believe it is speaking of an earthly millennial reign following the second coming of Christ. I believe we need to start with clear scripture, which I believe includes passages like the ones I quoted, and interpret more difficult passages like Zechariah 14 and Revelation 20 in light of what the more clear passages teach.

                        We've gone into detail on this on other threads and you can read those to see how people interpret that passage from Zech 14 in different ways. For this thread, I just wanted to share my own view for the OP to consider because he/she indicated that he/she was confused about this issue.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Grafted_In View Post
                          But what about the passage DurbanDude quoted...it suggests that their will be many survivors from the nations. Isnt this speaking of the millennial reign?
                          There are those which survive the second death. None survive the first.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by John146 View Post
                            This is not true. You just don't agree with the answers we give.

                            .
                            OK I do agree with you here.

                            Of all the proof texts that I have given so far, only Rev 19 and Zechariah 14 were discussed in detail, so I did get answers there that I disagreed with. I suggested that the interpretation given contradicts itself in both cases.


                            2 Thess 1
                            7And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
                            8In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
                            9Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
                            10When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
                            All this verse is showing is that the Day of the Lord will be a great separation and will be a dramatic day. There is nothing to indicate that all will be destroyed. Let me analyse this passage:
                            The Lord will be revealed in flaming fire- this is describing the Lord
                            He will take vengeance - this does not state or imply universal death, to conclude universal death would be making conclusions from assumptions based on your own beliefs. Vengeance is worldwide cataclysm. Cities destroyed, mountains laid low, sea tossing, hail etc etc, these events are prophesied all over without the mention of universal death.
                            Punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and the glory of His power- this is describing how they no longer can be saved, they will never experience God as we do, we experience His power and His presence for eternity, after the second coming this door is closed to them forever. All unbelievers are included in this punishment of eternal destruction of their souls, whether they physically survive or not.


                            Luke 17
                            26And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
                            27They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
                            28Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
                            29But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
                            30Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

                            Just as all the unbelievers were killed in Lot and Noah's day "Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.".
                            Sodom was a regionalised destruction, these comparisons are not conclusive about every individual dying. Yes, wordwide destruction due to a world-wide earthquake, and regional annihilation (eg we know that all at Megiddo will die) but not necessarily all on earth will die from that earthquake and the other judgements.

                            2 Peter 3
                            10But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
                            11Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
                            12Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
                            13Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

                            I can't say how anyone would survive the burning up of the earth.
                            We have to read this in the light of another 12 verses that say the earth is not burnt up: Kindly read these verses:

                            Ecclesiastes 1:4 says, "the earth abideth forever."

                            Psalm 78:69 says, "the earth which he hath established forever."

                            Psalm 93:1b says, "The world also is established, that it cannot be moved."

                            Psalm 96:10 says, “the world also shall be established that it shall not be moved.”

                            Psalm 104:5 says, "Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed forever."

                            Psalm 148:4-6 says, “Praise him, ye heavens of heavens, and ye waters that be above the heavens. Let them praise the name of the LORD: for he commanded, and they were created. He hath also stablished them for ever and ever

                            Although amills often explain Zech 14 in terms of a symbolic representation of the church age, I believe that it fits better into a post second coming world and should be literally translated. The symbolism of "heathens" either worshipping the Lord or being punished does not fit the church age. The only explanation of Zechariah 14 that fits well, is of a survival of earth and heathens after the second coming:
                            Zechariah 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
                            14:17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
                            14:18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.


                            How can certain regions have birds surviving in those regions if the whole earth is burnt up? :
                            Isaiah 34:8 For it is the day of the LORD's vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.
                            34:9 And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch, and the dust thereof into brimstone, and the land thereof shall become burning pitch.
                            34:10 It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever.
                            34:11 But the cormorant and the bittern shall possess it; the owl also and the raven shall dwell in it: and he shall stretch out upon it the line of confusion, and the stones of emptiness


                            Just certain regions, but not the whole earth, are desolate after the second coming, ****tim is blessed:
                            Joel 3:18 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the mountains shall drop down new wine, and the hills shall flow with milk, and all the rivers of Judah shall flow with waters, and a fountain shall come forth out of the house of the LORD, and shall water the valley of ****tim.
                            3:19 Egypt shall be a desolation, and Edom shall be a desolate wilderness, for the violence against the children of Judah, because they have shed innocent blood in their land.

                            A sixth of gog survives:

                            Ezekiel 39:1 Therefore, thou son of man, prophesy against Gog, and say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal:
                            39:2 And I will turn thee back, and leave but the sixth part of thee, and will cause thee to come up from the north parts, and will bring thee upon the mountains of Israel:

                            People REMAIN on the face of the earth after the second coming:

                            39:14 And they shall sever out men of continual employment, passing through the land to bury with the passengers those that remain upon the face of the earth, to cleanse it: after the end of seven months shall they sear

                            There is old age and children after the second coming when the Lord RETURNS to Zion(ie not a new Zion):
                            Zechariah 8:3 Thus saith the LORD; I am returned unto Zion, and will dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and Jerusalem shall be called a city of truth; and the mountain of the LORD of hosts the holy mountain.
                            8:4 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; There shall yet old men and old women dwell in the streets of Jerusalem, and every man with his staff in his hand for very age.
                            8:5 And the streets of the city shall be full of boys and girls playing in the streets thereof.


                            Readin 2 Peter 3 in light of the above 12 verses that indicate survival of this earth I conclude that:

                            The earth will not have complete destruction, therefore when the verse refers to elements being burnt up it refers to (elements are historically soil/fire/water/vegetation/rock/metals- the basic materials of earth) complete localised destructions, and a renewed earth.

                            Rev 19
                            15And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
                            16And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
                            17And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
                            18That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

                            When it says "all men, both free and bond, both small and great" that means it's all-inclusive. All unbelievers will be killed
                            How can it be referring to all men over the whole earth when Rev 19:15 (highlighted above) indicates that after the second coming the nations will be ruled over.

                            The rest of the passage is specifically referring to the war, and all the various types of soldiers that are gathered at that war. All of those soldiers of that war will die.

                            Zechariah 14 gives a better perspective on the death of all the soldiers of that war and yet the survival of nations.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by DurbanDude View Post
                              All this verse is showing is that the Day of the Lord will be a great separation and will be a dramatic day. There is nothing to indicate that all will be destroyed. Let me analyse this passage:
                              The Lord will be revealed in flaming fire- this is describing the Lord
                              He will take vengeance - this does not state or imply universal death, to conclude universal death would be making conclusions from assumptions based on your own beliefs. Vengeance is worldwide cataclysm. Cities destroyed, mountains laid low, sea tossing, hail etc etc, these events are prophesied all over without the mention of universal death.
                              Punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and the glory of His power- this is describing how they no longer can be saved, they will never experience God as we do, we experience His power and His presence for eternity, after the second coming this door is closed to them forever. All unbelievers are included in this punishment of eternal destruction of their souls, whether they physically survive or not.
                              I completely disagree with your conclusions here. I believe the passage is clearly saying that Christ will take vengeance on all people that don't know God or obey the gospel of Christ when He returns. All unbelievers fit that description.


                              Sodom was a regionalised destruction, these comparisons are not conclusive about every individual dying. Yes, wordwide destruction due to a world-wide earthquake, and regional annihilation (eg we know that all at Megiddo will die) but not necessarily all on earth will die from that earthquake and the other judgements.
                              All unbelievers died at Sodom and in the flood. Since His second coming is a global event I believe this implies that all unbelievers in the world will die just as they did in the flood.

                              We have to read this in the light of another 12 verses that say the earth is not burnt up: Kindly read these verses:
                              You misunderstand my view. Paul (wpm) explained it before and I quoted him and said I agreed with his position, but I guess you missed it. I don't believe the earth is going to be burned up and completely annihilated. I believe the surface of the entire earth will be burned up and then made new. So, I believe the new earth is actually going to be this earth but made new with no more wicked people or anything wicked remaining on the earth. As Peter says in 2 Peter 3:13, it will be a place "wherein dwelleth righteousness".

                              Readin 2 Peter 3 in light of the above 12 verses that indicate survival of this earth I conclude that:

                              The earth will not have complete destruction, therefore when the verse refers to elements being burnt up it refers to (elements are historically soil/fire/water/vegetation/rock/metals- the basic materials of earth) complete localised destructions, and a renewed earth.
                              I agree

                              How can it be referring to all men over the whole earth when Rev 19:15 (highlighted above) indicates that after the second coming the nations will be ruled over.
                              Actually, it seems to me that Rev 19:15 says they will be destroyed. We can't ignore the part about Christ treading the winepress of the wrath of God. You can read Rev 14:18-20 to see what that means.

                              The rest of the passage is specifically referring to the war, and all the various types of soldiers that are gathered at that war. All of those soldiers of that war will die.
                              I don't believe it's speaking of literal soldiers but is referring to unbelievers in general as being part of Satan's spiritual army of darkness. Notice that it speaks of them sitting on horses. Do you really see a bunch of soldiers literally gathering together riding on horses? What I believe is being missed here is that this is not speaking of a regional physical battle but rather a global spiritual battle. It mentions that all people "both free and bond, both small and great" will be killed. That is all-inclusive language that goes along with passages like 2 Thess 1:7-8 which indicates that all people who don't know God and obey the gospel of Christ will be destroyed on that day.

                              Zechariah 14 gives a better perspective on the death of all the soldiers of that war and yet the survival of nations.
                              That's if Zech 14 was speaking of the second coming, but I don't believe it is.

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