Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Pre or Post Rapture--Confused

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Pre or Post Rapture--Confused

    Please help me understand all of this. For those that believe the rapture will come before the tribulation then is it the unbelievers that are left behind to either take or not take the mark of the beast? and prove themselves to the Lord? If you are a believer of the post trib rapture then do we Christians all have to suffer through the tribulation and all it's horror to prove we are a child of God? I am so confused by so many different opinions. Is God's word really this hard to understand? I am a new Christian but our church never talks about any of this so I am trying to learn about it through reading the bible and gathering information here. There are just so many different opinions and as a new Christian I would like to know what really is the truth. Can you help me understand God's word so I can prepare and be ready? Will we all have to suffer to prove our faith? I don't know what is truth and what is not at this point. Thank you for your help!

  • #2
    Originally posted by bixa525 View Post
    Please help me understand all of this. For those that believe the rapture will come before the tribulation then is it the unbelievers that are left behind to either take or not take the mark of the beast? and prove themselves to the Lord?
    The Pretrib rapture belief holds that all of the true Christians living on the planet will be taken up to Heaven at the Pretrib rapture; so by default, following that; only unbelievers are on the Earth. However, the Pretrib rapture belief also holds that many of those who were "left behind" will become new Christians during the tribulation.

    Noone has to do anything to 'proove' themselves to the Lord. We don't do any actions or works to gain merit with God; rather we belief, trust, and follow His Son Jesus Christ, who died on the Cross; prooving His love for us that while we were yet sinners, He died for us.



    Originally posted by bixa525 View Post
    If you are a believer of the post trib rapture then do we Christians all have to suffer through the tribulation and all it's horror to prove we are a child of God?
    The Posttrib rapture belief holds that all Christians remain on the Earth through all of the endtime events, and that when Christ comes, it is only once from Heaven, to gather true believer and to destroy the wicked. Whether or not all of the wicked are destroyed at His return or later, is differentiated in the different Millennial views.

    Again, noone here as in the Pretrib view, prooves they are a child of God by their accomplishments, but rather, by their relationship with Jesus Christ and what He alone accomplished for us.


    Originally posted by bixa525 View Post
    I am so confused by so many different opinions. Is God's word really this hard to understand? I am a new Christian but our church never talks about any of this so I am trying to learn about it through reading the bible and gathering information here. There are just so many different opinions and as a new Christian I would like to know what really is the truth. Can you help me understand God's word so I can prepare and be ready? Will we all have to suffer to prove our faith? I don't know what is truth and what is not at this point. Thank you for your help!
    The best help anyone here can advise you, is to start reading God's word...and read alot of it, and allow the Holy Spirit to teach you. Don't look for quick answers, but rather pray and meditate, and compare scripture with scripture, and undertake that if you faithfully search for answers, the Lord will provide them through his words.

    I would suggest as a starting place, to hold off on trying to figure out Revelation, which as a symbolic apocryphal work of literature, is very difficult to understand as a new Christian. Start out reading Matthew 13, 24-25, Mark 13, Luke 17, John 5-6, Romans 8, I Corinthians 15, I Thess 4-5, 2 Thess 1-2, 2 Peter 3, and Jude 1 first....all much smaller reads, which will give you a good intro into what the Bible itself teaches regarding most all endtime events. Once you have a fairly comfortable understanding of those passages (which are pretty straight forward to understand), then you'll have a much better foundation for beginning to study Revelation.

    Also, when you begin to study Revelation, you'll find it draws from many O.T. passages like Isaiah 2, 24-26, 65-66, Daniel 2, 7, 11-12, etc...so background reading in those areas are also helpful.

    The NT writings however, are the most clear and straightforward, and I would suggest those first as a starting point.

    Comment


    • #3
      Good advice from Mr Taylor Bixa.
      "Your name and renown
      is the desire of our hearts."
      (Isaiah 26:8)

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by bixa525 View Post
        Please help me understand all of this. For those that believe the rapture will come before the tribulation then is it the unbelievers that are left behind to either take or not take the mark of the beast? and prove themselves to the Lord? If you are a believer of the post trib rapture then do we Christians all have to suffer through the tribulation and all it's horror to prove we are a child of God? I am so confused by so many different opinions. Is God's word really this hard to understand? I am a new Christian but our church never talks about any of this so I am trying to learn about it through reading the bible and gathering information here. There are just so many different opinions and as a new Christian I would like to know what really is the truth. Can you help me understand God's word so I can prepare and be ready? Will we all have to suffer to prove our faith? I don't know what is truth and what is not at this point. Thank you for your help!
        __________________________________________________ ___________
        I was pretrib before I became totally convinced that the scriptures solidly are posttrib where the rapture is concerned, so I have looked at this intensely from both sides for over 20 years.
        If you do an intense study of both old and new testament scriptures that deal with the return of the Lord, you will find that His coming for us is literally posttrib and that pretrib is a long string of assumptions.

        Whenever ANY scripture refers to the coming of the Lord, it is ALWAYS ONE COMING which is at the end of the 42 month reign of the beast. This coming includes both the punishment of the wicked with fire on the earth and the simultaneous gathering of the righteous to save them from the Lord's wrath. The Day of the Lord's wrath in scripture, is ALWAYS described as coming at the end of the beast's reign.
        The Lord is constantly warning His followers in the scriptures of the things that will happen before He comes.
        The entire book of Revelation is an explicit warning of what the church will have to endure before He comes.
        It opens with these words: "This is the revelation given by God to Jesus Christ, to tell the CHURCHES about the things which are to take place very soon."; and it closes with these words: "I Jesus, have sent My angel to make these revelations to you FOR THE SAKE OF THE CHURCHES."

        It is also stated in scripture that there are only two resurrections: One is the resurrection of life and the other the resurrection unto damnation. The resurrection to life is stated to occur simultaneously with the coming of the Lord, not at any other time.

        The Day of the Lord is also described as a day "when the Lord alone will be exhalted". (which could NOT be during the reign of antichrist, but AFTER it); It will also be a day of "darkness and thick clouds", not 7 years of darkness and thick clouds.
        Last edited by TexasBeliever; Jan 22nd 2009, 09:06 PM.
        Today's mighty oak is just yesterday's nut that held it's ground.
        ********************************************
        MAY WE IN EVIL'S HOUR, TRUTH'S SWORD WITH BOLDNESS WIELD

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by TexasBeliever View Post
          __________________________________________________ ___________
          I was pretrib before I became totally convinced that the scriptures solidly are posttrib where the rapture is concerned, so I have looked at this intensely from both sides for over 20 years.
          If you do an intense study of both old and new testament scriptures that deal with the return of the Lord, you will find that His coming for us is literally posttrib and that pretrib is a long string of assumptions.

          Whenever ANY scripture refers to the coming of the Lord, it is ALWAYS ONE COMING which is at the end of the 42 month reign of the beast. This coming includes both the punishment of the wicked with fire on the earth and the simultaneous gathering of the righteous to save them from the Lord's wrath. The Day of the Lord's wrath in scripture, is ALWAYS described as coming at the end of the beast's reign.
          The Lord is constantly warning His followers in the scriptures of the things that will happen before He comes.
          The entire book of Revelation is an explicit warning of what the church will have to endure before He comes.
          It opens with these words: "This is the revelation given by God to Jesus Christ, to tell the CHURCHES about the things which are to take place very soon."; and it closes with these words: "I Jesus, have sent My angel to make these revelations to you FOR THE SAKE OF THE CHURCHES."

          It is also stated in scripture that there are only two resurrections: One is the resurrection of life and the other the resurrection unto damnation. The resurrection to life is stated to occur simultaneously with the coming of the Lord, not at any other time.
          Hello TexasBeliever, or maybe I should say howdy?

          I just have to challenge your statement above concerning the "day of the Lord". The phrase "the day of the Lord" does not automatically speak of events leading up to Christ's return. Here are a few examples where "day of the Lord" speaks of God's judgment against others through out history.

          Jer 46:10
          (10) For this is the day of the Lord GOD of hosts, a day of vengeance, that he may avenge him of his adversaries: and the sword shall devour, and it shall be satiate and made drunk with their blood: for the Lord GOD of hosts hath a sacrifice in the north country by the river Euphrates.


          This passage speaks of an attack on Egypt by Babylon.

          Isa 13:6
          (6) Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.


          In this passage "day of the Lord" speaks of an attack on Babylon by the Medes.

          Isa 34:8
          (8) For it is the day of the LORD'S vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.


          This verse, in spite of the horrific language leading up to it, depicts God's vengeance being carried out on Edom.

          Lam 1:12
          (12) Is it nothing to you, all ye that pass by? behold, and see if there be any sorrow like unto my sorrow, which is done unto me, wherewith the LORD hath afflicted me in the day of his fierce anger.


          Worded differently but still speaks of the same thing. Jeremiah laments the desolation of Jerusalem at the hands of Babylon.

          Lam 2:22
          (22) Thou hast called as in a solemn day my terrors round about, so that in the day of the LORD'S anger none escaped nor remained: those that I have swaddled and brought up hath mine enemy consumed.


          Again, this is another reference to down of Jerusalem by Babylon

          Eze 7:19
          (19) They shall cast their silver in the streets, and their gold shall be removed: their silver and their gold shall not be able to deliver them in the day of the wrath of the LORD: they shall not satisfy their souls, neither fill their bowels: because it is the stumblingblock of their iniquity.


          This passage speaks of the utter desolation of Israel, the Northern Kingdom.

          Eze 30:3
          (3) For the day is near, even the day of the LORD is near, a cloudy day; it shall be the time of the heathen.


          Speaking of the ruin of Egypt and her allies at that hands of Nebuchadnezzar


          Amo 5:20
          (20) Shall not the day of the LORD be darkness, and not light? even very dark, and no brightness in it?


          The "day of the Lord" which Amos speaks of hear pertains to the desolation of Israel by the Assyrians.

          Oba 1:15
          (15) For the day of the LORD is near upon all the heathen: as thou hast done, it shall be done unto thee: thy reward shall return upon thine own head.


          This appears to be a prophecy against Edom
          -----------------
          Scott

          Live simply. Love generously. Care deeply. Speak kindly.
          Leave the rest to the Lord.

          Comment


          • #6
            I didn't say it was. The Lord's wrath comes when HE comes. The events prior to this affect anyone who gets caught in them, (therefore they are not the wrath of the Lord) except the things that only effect those who accept the mark of the beast specifically. (sores and scorpian-like stings)

            The Lord specifically comes "to destroy those who destroy the earth", which includes those who are murdering the faithful, and at this time He seperates the wheat from the tares.
            Today's mighty oak is just yesterday's nut that held it's ground.
            ********************************************
            MAY WE IN EVIL'S HOUR, TRUTH'S SWORD WITH BOLDNESS WIELD

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by TexasBeliever View Post
              I didn't say it was. The Lord's wrath comes when HE comes. The events prior to this affect anyone who gets caught in them, (therefore they are not the wrath of the Lord) except the things that only effect those who accept the mark of the beast specifically. (sores and scorpian-like stings)

              The Lord specifically comes "to destroy those who destroy the earth", which includes those who are murdering the faithful, and at this time He seperates the wheat from the tares.
              Sorry Bud, when you said...

              "The Day of the Lord's wrath in scripture, is ALWAYS described as coming at the end of the beast's reign."

              I guess that I associated the phrase "The Day of the Lord's wrath" with "the day of the Lord".

              In spite of my error, I'm afraid that from what I've found, the phrase "the day of the Lord's wrath", is mentioned only once in the KJV, in Zep 1:18, and it speaks of the coming of God's wrath against Judah when God sent the Babylonians to destroy Jerusalem and take the survivor into exile.
              -----------------
              Scott

              Live simply. Love generously. Care deeply. Speak kindly.
              Leave the rest to the Lord.

              Comment


              • #8
                To get a good in-depth understanding of the end-times, I recommend reading pastor John Macarthurs two book commentary on Revelation.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by TexasBeliever View Post
                  __________________________________________________ ___________
                  I was pretrib before I became totally convinced that the scriptures solidly are posttrib where the rapture is concerned, so I have looked at this intensely from both sides for over 20 years.
                  If you do an intense study of both old and new testament scriptures that deal with the return of the Lord, you will find that His coming for us is literally posttrib and that pretrib is a long string of assumptions.

                  Whenever ANY scripture refers to the coming of the Lord, it is ALWAYS ONE COMING which is at the end of the 42 month reign of the beast. This coming includes both the punishment of the wicked with fire on the earth and the simultaneous gathering of the righteous to save them from the Lord's wrath. The Day of the Lord's wrath in scripture, is ALWAYS described as coming at the end of the beast's reign.
                  The Lord is constantly warning His followers in the scriptures of the things that will happen before He comes.
                  The entire book of Revelation is an explicit warning of what the church will have to endure before He comes.
                  It opens with these words: "This is the revelation given by God to Jesus Christ, to tell the CHURCHES about the things which are to take place very soon."; and it closes with these words: "I Jesus, have sent My angel to make these revelations to you FOR THE SAKE OF THE CHURCHES."

                  It is also stated in scripture that there are only two resurrections: One is the resurrection of life and the other the resurrection unto damnation. The resurrection to life is stated to occur simultaneously with the coming of the Lord, not at any other time.

                  The Day of the Lord is also described as a day "when the Lord alone will be exhalted". (which could NOT be during the reign of antichrist, but AFTER it); It will also be a day of "darkness and thick clouds", not 7 years of darkness and thick clouds.
                  yes, to what he said!

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Bumblebee Tuna View Post
                    To get a good in-depth understanding of the end-times, I recommend reading pastor John Macarthurs two book commentary on Revelation.
                    please dont! read daniel,isaiah,1thes,2thes,1cor,2cor and rev then you will have an understanding of end times. this is the only way, read these books over and over. love yaza

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Rapture

                      Hi bixa,
                      for a brief intro to the timing of the rapture, see first: Revelation chapter 20, vs 1-6, which describes those who were killed for refusing to worship the beast and his image, who also take part in the first resurrection.

                      Then go to 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 which reveals inarguably that the first resurrection occurs immediately prior to the church being gathered to Christ.

                      Only a very few will survive to see the rapture. The Lord gave His life for us, we cannot be expected to do less for Him if we come to be faced with that choice.
                      Last edited by quiet dove; Jan 24th 2009, 06:08 PM. Reason: could get derogatory

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        So if there is no pre rapture what does one do once the tribulation starts? Do we run for the hills or just stay where you are and die from starvation or another means? I don't understand why God would make us suffer when Jesus already suffered and paid the price for our sins. Can someone explain this to me? Thank you

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by bixa525 View Post
                          So if there is no pre rapture what does one do once the tribulation starts? Do we run for the hills or just stay where you are and die from starvation or another means? I don't understand why God would make us suffer when Jesus already suffered and paid the price for our sins. Can someone explain this to me? Thank you
                          remember that satan is given power over the saints for 42 mos. {rev. 13 } and we are to endure to the end, i think we just need to maintian our faith until we die or jesus comes back. psalm 91 is the answer to your question. also why would god wait until the great trib. to save people when they were chosen before the foundation of the world? yaza

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by TexasBeliever View Post
                            ...The Lord's wrath comes when HE comes...
                            I'm waiting for an endtimes viewpoint which considers the Wrath of Khan. We've got just about everything else already.

                            Psalms 110:1 The LORD says to my Lord: "Sit at My right hand Until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet."...5 The Lord is at Your right hand; He will shatter kings in the day of His wrath. 6 He will judge among the nations, He will fill {them} with corpses, He will shatter the chief men over a broad country.
                            All this happens while He is still at the Father's Right Hand. No where in the context has He returned to the earth. In fact, He can't until all His enemies are subdued. Unless, of course, one believes He disobeys the Father. Not Likely.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by David Taylor View Post
                              Noone has to do anything to 'proove' themselves to the Lord. We don't do any actions or works to gain merit with God; rather we belief, trust, and follow His Son Jesus Christ, who died on the Cross; prooving His love for us that while we were yet sinners, He died for us.

                              It was my understanding that one of the tenets of dispensationalism is that when the church leaves, so does Grace, thus the desire to rebuild the temple.

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X