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Mark 13 and the end of Pretribulationism

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  • Mark 13 and the end of Pretribulationism

    My wife and I have recently started reading the Gospel of Mark together. This morning, it was time to read Mark 13. Being more familiar with the end-time passages in Matthew, I did not realize this chapter discussed the return of Christ. What followed was surprising and worth writing a post about here.

    Now my wife was raised AG and has always believed in a Pretribulation rapture. She's not the intellectual type, however, but very practical and down-to-earth when it comes to theological issues. As we were reading Mark 13, we came across the following passage in verses 24-27:

    But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
    And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
    And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
    And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.


    As my wife read this, she commented that it basically doesn't get more obvious than this: AFTER that tribulation come the signs associated with Christ's return, THEN Christ returns and the elect will be gathered from the uttermost part of the earth and the heaven. And I agree with her: this passage spells the end of pretribulationism - at least in the life of my wife! No deep theology, no intense studying of various passages. Why? Because many verses speak for themselves, and this is definitely one of them.

    Just wanted to share this with you all.
    Who have I in heaven but You oh God? Besides You, I desire nothing here on earth. My heart and my flesh may fail me, but God will be the strength of my heart and my portion forever...as for me, the nearness of God is my good - Psalm 73:25-26, 28a

    Check out my new blog at pilgrimtozion.blogspot.com

  • #2
    Just curious. How is Christ able to gather His elect that are in heaven if they have not previously risen there?

    Comment


    • #3
      You're sure to get responses with a plethora of verses about why the "rapture" comes before the tribulation.

      Reasons why I don't believe in a pre-trib rapture:
      1. As shown above, Christ very explicitly placed His Coming as happening after the tribulation and persecution of His disciples.
      2. Not a single time does Christ ever speak of a "secret coming" for His followers before the tribulation was to happen.
      3. In His parable of the farmer (Matthew 13), Christ outright depicts the righteous and wicked as living together during "the end of the age", not the righteous being removed beforehand.
      4. And then when "the end" actually came around, who is it we see taken away first? The wicked. That kind of throws the whole thing for a loop, huh?
      5. Christ prayed that His disciples would not be taken out of the world.
      6. Paul prophesied that the "rapture" would happen at the last trumpet. When we read the Revelation, the last trumpet sounds off to mark when Christ's rule over the earth was established and that the judgment (Revelation 20:11-15) had come.
      7. The various verses from the epistles that speak of a "rapture" are indistinguishable from the verses that speak of the resurrection, which was to take place at the time of the Coming.
      To This Day

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Pilgrimtozion View Post
        As we were reading Mark 13, we came across the following passage in verses 24-27:

        But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
        And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
        And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
        And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

        As my wife read this, she commented that it basically doesn't get more obvious than this: AFTER that tribulation come the signs associated with Christ's return, THEN Christ returns and the elect will be gathered from the uttermost part of the earth and the heaven. And I agree with her: this passage spells the end of pretribulationism - at least in the life of my wife! No deep theology, no intense studying of various passages. Why? Because many verses speak for themselves, and this is definitely one of them.

        Just wanted to share this with you all.

        Hello,

        You have basically stated a core plank of what has come to be called the Prewrath position. (I underlined that part.) Perhaps you and your wife might want to examine the Prewrath position for yourselves. There are some Prewrath websites that might be useful. I too believe this way. For me it brings far more scripture together than pretrib ever did.

        Bandit

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        • #5
          Well let's use logic.

          Christ keep saying no one will know when His second coming will take place, that it will be at a time where we least suspect it.

          BUT, we can expect the glorious appearing, just calculate 7 years after the signing of the treaty of Israel. But His second coming is suppose to come at a time where we LEAST expect it, hence a rapture.

          Revelation 3:10
          Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

          He did not just say He would keep us from the trials, but the HOUR of trials as well, meaning away from the 7-years tribulation, hence a PRE-Tribulation rapture.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Kahtar View Post
            Just curious. How is Christ able to gather His elect that are in heaven if they have not previously risen there?
            It seems to me he gathers them from the earth as well

            And THEN shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
            Mal 3:16 Then they that feared the Lord spake often one to another: and the Lord hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the Lord, and that thought upon his name.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by shepherdsword View Post
              It seems to me he gathers them from the earth as well
              Yes, He does. All on the earth, ie the trib saints, AND all those already in heaven, shall be gathered together at His coming.

              Comment


              • #8
                So we find the rapture is to happen during the 6th seal.

                sun black
                moon blood
                heaven departs
                wicked hide in the rocks


                -----------
                See Isaiah 2:10-21
                The wicked will hide from His glory and for fear of Him.
                http://prophecyinsights.com

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Kahtar View Post
                  Yes, He does. All on the earth, ie the trib saints, AND all those already in heaven, shall be gathered together at His coming.

                  The ones who are in heaven are the ones who are "absent from the body but present with the Lord" Notice it says AFTER the tribulation of those days. You won't find a reference there for another coming besides that.
                  Mal 3:16 Then they that feared the Lord spake often one to another: and the Lord hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the Lord, and that thought upon his name.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by shepherdsword View Post
                    The ones who are in heaven are the ones who are "absent from the body but present with the Lord" Notice it says AFTER the tribulation of those days. You won't find a reference there for another coming besides that.
                    Okay.................

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Pilgrimtozion View Post
                      My wife and I have recently started reading the Gospel of Mark together. This morning, it was time to read Mark 13. Being more familiar with the end-time passages in Matthew, I did not realize this chapter discussed the return of Christ. What followed was surprising and worth writing a post about here.

                      Now my wife was raised AG and has always believed in a Pretribulation rapture. She's not the intellectual type, however, but very practical and down-to-earth when it comes to theological issues. As we were reading Mark 13, we came across the following passage in verses 24-27:

                      But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
                      And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
                      And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
                      And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.


                      As my wife read this, she commented that it basically doesn't get more obvious than this: AFTER that tribulation come the signs associated with Christ's return, THEN Christ returns and the elect will be gathered from the uttermost part of the earth and the heaven. And I agree with her: this passage spells the end of pretribulationism - at least in the life of my wife! No deep theology, no intense studying of various passages. Why? Because many verses speak for themselves, and this is definitely one of them.

                      Just wanted to share this with you all.
                      What days are those days and what tribulation is that tribulation?
                      -----------------
                      Scott

                      Live simply. Love generously. Care deeply. Speak kindly.
                      Leave the rest to the Lord.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Kahtar View Post
                        Okay.................

                        HaHa....hey, my position is hope for the best and prepare for the worse
                        Mal 3:16 Then they that feared the Lord spake often one to another: and the Lord hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the Lord, and that thought upon his name.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Pilgrimtozion View Post
                          My wife and I have recently started reading the Gospel of Mark together. This morning, it was time to read Mark 13. Being more familiar with the end-time passages in Matthew, I did not realize this chapter discussed the return of Christ. What followed was surprising and worth writing a post about here.

                          Now my wife was raised AG and has always believed in a Pretribulation rapture. She's not the intellectual type, however, but very practical and down-to-earth when it comes to theological issues. As we were reading Mark 13, we came across the following passage in verses 24-27:

                          But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
                          And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
                          And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
                          And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.


                          As my wife read this, she commented that it basically doesn't get more obvious than this: AFTER that tribulation come the signs associated with Christ's return, THEN Christ returns and the elect will be gathered from the uttermost part of the earth and the heaven. And I agree with her: this passage spells the end of pretribulationism - at least in the life of my wife! No deep theology, no intense studying of various passages. Why? Because many verses speak for themselves, and this is definitely one of them.

                          Just wanted to share this with you all.
                          Yep, after the tribulation Christ returns, however, here it says His angels gather the elect, so is that the same as blowing a trumpet and the dead in Christ and the living in Christ meeting Him in the clouds, and then, do they meet Him in the clouds as He is coming back in the "darkened" sky? Or do they watch Him come back then meet Him in the clouds? And that would be after the angels gathered them, but except I would think it difficult to gather them, after they saw Him coming and then them meet Him in the air to come back with Him.

                          All the saints, as in only one group, can respond to the the sound of the trumpet and meet Him in the clouds and watch Him come, be gathered by angels and come back with Him all in the same event.

                          These verses really do nothing to thwart pre trib.

                          What they do is make it clear that all will see Christ upon His Second Advent and that the angels will gather saints. And it makes clear that there are saints who survive the GT.


                          sigpic

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by quiet dove View Post
                            Yep, after the tribulation Christ returns, however, here it says His angels gather the elect, so is that the same as blowing a trumpet and the dead in Christ and the living in Christ meeting Him in the clouds, and then, do they meet Him in the clouds as He is coming back in the "darkened" sky? Or do they watch Him come back then meet Him in the clouds? And that would be after the angels gathered them, but except I would think it difficult to gather them, after they saw Him coming and then them meet Him in the air to come back with Him.

                            All the saints, as in only one group, can respond to the the sound of the trumpet and meet Him in the clouds and watch Him come, be gathered by angels and come back with Him all in the same event.

                            These verses really do nothing to thwart pre trib.

                            What they do is make it clear that all will see Christ upon His Second Advent and that the angels will gather saints. And it makes clear that there are saints who survive the GT.

                            The trump is mentioned in Matthew 24 when it repeats the same passage.

                            Matt 24:29-31

                            29 "But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken, 30 and then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31 "And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.
                            NASB

                            We see these same exact signs mentioned again in Rev 6 and a great multitude suddenly in heaven in Rev 7. I figure that was the saints that were raptured. In Rev. 6 we see Christ returning again.

                            It also fits with the kingdom parables in Matthew 13.

                            There is a common theme from Matthew to Mark to Luke to Revelation where a rapture occurs after the tribulation.
                            Matt 9:13
                            13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
                            NASU

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Brother Mark View Post
                              The trump is mentioned in Matthew 24 when it repeats the same passage. IMO, it completely trumps the pre-trib belief system unless there is to be another rapture including this one.

                              Matt 24:29-31

                              29 "But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken, 30 and then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31 "And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.
                              NASB

                              We see these same exact signs mentioned again in Rev 6 and a great multitude suddenly in heaven in Rev 7. I figure that was the saints that were raptured.
                              With a great trumpet the angels are sent forth is not the same as at the sound of a trumpet the living and dead meet Him in the sky. It also does not explain how the saints return with Him and watch Him come at the same time.

                              I'm not sure how angels being sent to seal God's servants is the same as the angels gathering the saints. We are told that further wrath will not happen until these are sealed and protected, protected from what if Christ has returned?


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