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He who restrains (2 Thess. 2:6-8)

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  • #91
    Re: He who restrains (2 Thess. 2:6-8)

    Originally posted by Saved7 View Post
    I've looked at that on a number of occasions as a post-tribber/pre-wrather and realized that the term "taken out of the way" could really be a thing that happens by force...indicating some sort of violence that would remove the church, like persecution.
    But rapture or persecution, still does not alter that the "restrainer" is taken out of the way, or answer who exactly then the restrainer would be? Even under persecution, the restrainer could still be the Holy Spirit.


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    • #92
      Re: He who restrains (2 Thess. 2:6-8)

      Originally posted by Beckrl View Post


      Also if we take the more common translation of "taken" (come, become, be done, be made) and "way" (middle, midst, midst of, amoungt) we get a different meaning.

      only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

      As in: only he who just now ,this moment keep ,to hold back, until he become, come out of the midst.





      "and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"
      6And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time

      A falling away is that withholdeth or restrain the son of perdition being revealed until that has come first then that man of sin revealed.

      8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming

      Beck


      Well Beckrl, it looks like we're on the same page here. It looks like you summed up the correct interpretation of that verse quite well. 'Taken' in the Greek doesn't even carry the same sense as it does in English for the word 'taken'. There's several other passages where taken, took, etc, carry the same sense as 'taken' in the English. But those verses use other Greek words and not ginomai, the Greek word that was used for 'taken' in that verse. To me it seems like the verse is saying that something is arising out of the midst, and not that something was literally being taken away.

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      • #93
        Re: He who restrains (2 Thess. 2:6-8)

        Originally posted by quiet dove View Post
        But rapture or persecution, still does not alter that the "restrainer" is taken out of the way, or answer who exactly then the restrainer would be? Even under persecution, the restrainer could still be the Holy Spirit.
        No doubt that the restrainer could be the Holy Spirit, the Spirit in those who are being persecuted.
        Don't seek too much knowledge. You just may be putting more weight on your shoulders than you're able to bare. Let God be the one to decide how quickly you grow.

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        • #94
          Re: He who restrains (2 Thess. 2:6-8)

          Originally posted by Saved7 View Post
          No doubt that the restrainer could be the Holy Spirit, the Spirit in those who are being persecuted.
          Yea I know the latter part....LOL

          I just was not sure what you meant then in regards to the Holy Spirit being the restrainer otherwise. And so you are saying that indeed the restrainer could be the Holy Spirit, your disagreement comes in regards to the rapture being what removes Him.....gotcha...


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          • #95
            Re: He who restrains (2 Thess. 2:6-8)

            Originally posted by quiet dove View Post
            Yea I know the latter part....LOL

            I just was not sure what you meant then in regards to the Holy Spirit being the restrainer otherwise. And so you are saying that indeed the restrainer could be the Holy Spirit, your disagreement comes in regards to the rapture being what removes Him.....gotcha...

            Yes ma'am, you got it!
            Don't seek too much knowledge. You just may be putting more weight on your shoulders than you're able to bare. Let God be the one to decide how quickly you grow.

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            • #96
              Re: He who restrains (2 Thess. 2:6-8)

              Originally posted by Beckrl View Post


              Also if we take the more common translation of "taken" (come, become, be done, be made) and "way" (middle, midst, midst of, amoungt) we get a different meaning.

              only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

              As in: only he who just now ,this moment keep ,to hold back, until he become, come out of the midst.





              "and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"
              6And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time

              A falling away is that withholdeth or restrain the son of perdition being revealed until that has come first then that man of sin revealed.

              8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming

              Beck


              Ok, wait, I THINK I understand what you are saying here....but I am having a hard time making it make sense when I put it together. Are you saying that the with holding is the Church not being in a falling away state, but when that happens, then we will know who he is and there will be no restraining him? Or what? I am reading it and I am having a hard time putting that into an order that makes sense as I go over those verses.....yet the argument makes sense. Can you explain this a little better for me?


              ooooh, ok I just looked at it again, "he is restraining himself until he comes out from the midst of"....whatever??? is that what this could actually be translated as???

              So it looks like this....

              2 Thessalonians 2:7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

              But MAYBE it should read like this???

              7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only NOW AT THIS TIME, HE IS HOLDING BACK UNTIL HE APPEARS PUBLICLY FROM OUT OF THE MIDST, (possibly through some apparent miracle.)

              he who now: 1)
              just now, this moment

              2) now at this time, at this very time, this moment

              letteth:

              1) to hold back, detain, retain
              a) from going away
              b) to restrain, hinder (the course or progress of)
              1) that which hinders, Antichrist from making his appearance
              2) to check a ship's headway i.e. to hold or head the ship
              c) to hold fast, keep secure, keep firm possession of
              2) to get possession of, take
              b) to possess

              will let until:

              1) till, until

              he be taken:


              1) to become, i.e. to come into existence, begin to be, receive being
              2) to become, i.e. to come to pass, happen
              a) of events
              3) to arise, appear in history, come upon the stage
              a) of men appearing in public
              4) to be made, finished
              a) of miracles, to be performed, wrought
              5) to become, be made

              out of:
              1) out of, from, by, away from

              the way:

              1) middle
              2) the midst
              3) in the midst of, amongst
              Don't seek too much knowledge. You just may be putting more weight on your shoulders than you're able to bare. Let God be the one to decide how quickly you grow.

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              • #97
                Re: He who restrains (2 Thess. 2:6-8)

                Originally posted by CaymanAngel View Post
                Last night I was reading in Daniel 12:7 about "..when the power of the holy people has been the rapture will then take place. I was thinking on this and wondering exactly who the 'holy people' were, is it Israel or the body of Christ, i.e. the Church. This morning I'm reading in 2 Thess 2:7 and the thing that stood out for me was "...but the one who now holds it back..." WHO is that one and this prompted my search. From what I found it did not infer Jesus, the Holy Spirit or God Himself - it seemed to be something other than the Godhead. I then found this link http://www.wor.org/Books/w/whrestrn.sen.htm. I would love some discussion, sorry I know this is an old thread so if anybody is will to discuss, it would be much appreciated.
                I also do not see any biblical support for the notion that the restrainer is the holy spirit. Now I want you to have an open mind when I suggest an alternative:

                Rev 12 describes a situation where the saints have overcome Satan through our testimony. Now the saints have always had a testimony, so for this testimony and martyrdom described in Rev 12 to suddenly cause Satan to fall seems to indicate a victorious climax to our testimony. I would equate this with the testimony reaching the ends of the earth, because this is the victorious goal of the church, and we are told that the end will not come until the gospel has been preached to all nations.
                12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
                12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

                So it appears we have our "sign-watching" back to front, we are thinking that Satan is trying to orchestrate the politics of earth to quickly usher in the antichrist, BUT THIS IS WRONG TEACHING. It appears that Satan is restraining the spread of the testimony of the saints, and so delaying the end of his influence on earth. When Satan's delaying tactics are overcome by the church succesfully spreading the gospel, Satan will not be happy about his 3.5 years of ultimate rule over earth, as opposed to the current teaching that he is trying to orchestrate this.

                So whether or not Satan is the restrainer of 2 Thessalonians 2, the chapter of Rev 12 teaches us that Satan is restraining his ultimate manifestation on earth , fights to STAY in heaven rather being cast down to earth, and Satan is ANGRY that he is FORCED to manifest on earth for the last 3.5 years of wrath. With these facts in mind, now read 2 Thessalonians again:
                2THESS 2:6 And now ye know that which restraineth, to the end that he may be revealed in his own season.
                2THESS 2:7 For the mystery of lawlessness doth already work: only `there is' one that restraineth now, until he be taken out of the way.
                2THESS 2:8 And then shall be revealed the lawless one
                , whom the Lord Jesus shall slay with the breath of his mouth, and bring to nought by the manifestation of his coming;
                2THESS 2:9 `even he', whose coming is according to the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,


                Rev 12: Satan is delaying his manifestation on earth, he is removed from heaven, Satan displays great wrath on earth
                2 Thess 2: one that restrains, he is taken out of the way, Satan manifests through signs and deception
                Last edited by DurbanDude; Nov 27th 2011, 12:49 PM.

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                • #98
                  Re: He who restrains (2 Thess. 2:6-8)

                  Abraham had no bible, church, or Holly Spirit. His singuler faith in the spokin word of G-d was counted to him as rightiousness. If the "Church", who has the Holly Spirit is raptured, and the remnent, the 144,000 who flee to Petra and are ashmarked to be filled with salvation with the knowledge of Christ are the last ones home. Are their no indevidual men who stand with faith? Did this just describe 1 man. Jesus said upon his return this is what he is looking for, men who stand alone with faith. Do we all have to be held up by a congrigation? My mom told me that no man is an island, no man can stand alone,but Abraham did. Did G-d change was anyone truely standing with Christ when he was peirced. I don't think so. Not even the Father. Christ said we will do the same and even greater thing. He couldn't show his fathers kingdom,for the cornerstone had been layed until his death.

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                  • #99
                    Re: He who restrains (2 Thess. 2:6-8)

                    Does anyone find it a little ironick that this very subject and verse is the half-torah reading for today?

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                    • Re: He who restrains (2 Thess. 2:6-8)

                      The Trueth of G-d is seen in all things by anyone who wants to see. I was taken out of the Church 20 years ago. I was brought to the Torah, then I was brought to a very lonely place in a large city where I sit alone having felowship with my brothers. G-d is everywhere for all things work for the benafit of one who trusts in the Lord.

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                      • Re: He who restrains (2 Thess. 2:6-8)

                        Jesuses birth languege was hebrew. Why would I take the "fact" from the ones who got it third hand from Paul when Hebrew is no longer a dead languege?

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                        • Re: He who restrains (2 Thess. 2:6-8)

                          Originally posted by Joe Rennels View Post
                          Jesuses birth languege was hebrew. Why would I take the "fact" from the ones who got it third hand from Paul when Hebrew is no longer a dead languege?
                          I heard that Jesus spoke Aramaic, though I haven't investigated it myself. But one thing to bear in mind is the fact that modern Hebrew is different than ancient Hebrew.

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                          • Re: He who restrains (2 Thess. 2:6-8)

                            Originally posted by quiet dove View Post
                            But rapture or persecution, still does not alter that the "restrainer" is taken out of the way, or answer who exactly then the restrainer would be? Even under persecution, the restrainer could still be the Holy Spirit.
                            I guess what I really don't understand is the Holy Spirit IS God. How can God be "taken away"? He is omnipresent.

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                            • Re: He who restrains (2 Thess. 2:6-8)

                              Originally posted by Raybob View Post
                              I guess what I really don't understand is the Holy Spirit IS God. How can God be "taken away"? He is omnipresent.
                              True. that's why I prefer the notion that Satan has to be removed, the timing fits in better too.

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                              • Re: He who restrains (2 Thess. 2:6-8)

                                Originally posted by Raybob View Post
                                I guess what I really don't understand is the Holy Spirit IS God. How can God be "taken away"? He is omnipresent.
                                Remember when Jesus said that he would send the Holy Spirit to specifically help the Apostles remember his teaching and to convict the world of sin and judgment etc? The Holy Spirit is "taken away" when the opposite takes place. When the Holy Spirit is no longer convicting the world of sin and judgment etc. that will be the day the HS is taken away. When Paul says that God sends on them a delusion, this speaks about the same thing using different wording.

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