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  • Discussion Armageddon - the armies gather

    I seem to have a unique view of the final war, when Christ intervenes on the Day of the Lord.

    You see, I don't believe the armies are gathered to fight against God or a holy Jerusalem in any way.

    I believe it is two evil factions fighting against eachother, the one faction rules earth under the control of the antichrist, this is the Western/European faction. The other faction is doing a sudden surprise attack of rebellion. This attack is from the North, South and East.

    I have many reasons for believing this, but the main reason is that scripture points to the earlier control and dominance of the antichrist over Israel and the whole world. In other words, there is no reason whatsoever for the antichrist to attack Israel because scripture is 100% clear that he already owns Israel. The attacking countries seem to be Russia/Turkey and other Arabic countries. They may be allied to further eastern countries (China) and they also seem to be allied to Africa.

    So this is a surprise , sudden, world war between two evil alliances. The antichrist himself is the enemy of Christ, and the attacking armies are mainly Moslem, who have a twisted prophecy that teaches them to fight against the evil one who will come on the clouds. It is therefore BOTH sides gathered to war at Armageddon that are the enemies of Jesus, and when Jesus intervenes and appears they both turn against Jesus.

    The Jews are caught in the middle. They have been deceived by the antichrist just like everyone else, but they have not all supported the antichrist, because some are waiting for their true Messiah. When they see their leader actually losing the battle, and the armies of Gog entering Israel, this is when they cry out to their true Messiah, Jesus. Jesus himself intervenes on the day of the Lord.

    Does anyone else have this view? Any comments or interesting debates about this?
    Last edited by DurbanDude; Mar 20th 2009, 02:12 PM. Reason: Edit

  • #2
    The core passages of scripture for understanding the rise and dominance of the little horn king of the northern Middle East are:

    Daniel 7:7-12, 7:19-27
    Daniel 8:9-12, 8:23-25
    Daniel 11:36-45
    Daniel 12:7
    Micah 5
    Revelation 13

    The ending conflict of the tribulation period will involve the little horn [beast] and his followers set against the Lord Himself

    The key passages of scripture are:

    Ezekiel 38:15-23
    Ezekiel 39:2-29
    Zechariah 14:1-14
    Revelation 14:15-20
    Revelation 16:1-21
    Revelation 19:11-21
    Stephen

    2Peter
    1:19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts

    Comment


    • #3
      The battle is already going on. It HAS BEEN since the rebellion of the angels in Heaven.
      Armegeddon isn't going to be an actual "fight" between two sides..... it's the final fulfillment of the prophecy, when Satan is given his eternal judment, and the curse of sin & death are no longer.

      Satan is still gathering his army to fight against God (on a daily basis.....) so the "war" is in progress.

      This is a spiritual war, not a physical one. And the "Great battle at the end" is not going to be a battle in the sense that we normally use.
      All it's going to take is a spoken command from God, and the "Battle" is over.

      That's how I view it.
      Hebrews 11:1 Now Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
      _______________________________________________
      There was a time when I used to think Macro-evolution might be a possibility..... but then I GREW UP!
      ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

      Meike & I have the same birthday! Na-na na, na-na!!!

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Stephen1 View Post
        The ending conflict of the tribulation period will involve the little horn [beast] and his followers set against the Lord Himself

        The key passages of scripture are:

        Ezekiel 38:15-23
        Ezekiel 39:2-29
        Zechariah 14:1-14
        Revelation 14:15-20
        Revelation 16:1-21
        Revelation 19:11-21
        Thanks for the reply Stephen,

        I was looking through those verse you quote, and nothing there seems to contradict my own beliefs. Many countries are listed in Ezekiel 38 as attacking armies, the reason given is that they are attacking for spoil and because Israel is unsuspecting.

        This fits in with Daniel 11, when the antichrist dwells in Israel (plants his tents there), and yet is surprised from reports to the north and the east. The antichrist, ruler of Israel, is unsuspecting.

        Exekiel 39 is just a continuation of 38.

        Zechariah 14 gives no indication of why the nations are attcking Israel.

        Rev 14 doesn't give much info on the war.


        Rev 16 doesn't indicate if the kings of the earth are gathered against eachother or gathered against God.
        Rev 16:14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

        Rev 19 doesn't indicate this either.

        What those verses DO show, is that Jesus intervenes in that war, in defense of Israel against Gog. This doesnt mean that the attacking armies were trying to fight Jesus at first, I believe they are rebelling against their world leader, the antichrist.
        Last edited by DurbanDude; Mar 20th 2009, 03:11 PM. Reason: Edit

        Comment


        • #5
          This passage of scripture definitely sets the Lord against the beast and His followers

          Revelation
          16:1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.

          16:2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.

          16:3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.

          16:4 And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood.

          16:5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.

          16:6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.

          16:7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.

          16:8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.

          16:9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.

          16:10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,

          16:11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.

          16:12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.

          16:13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.

          16:14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

          16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

          16:16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

          16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
          Stephen

          2Peter
          1:19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts

          Comment


          • #6
            Oops. Sorry. Accidentally pushed reply button twice.
            Last edited by L'Ange; Mar 21st 2009, 03:24 PM. Reason: Error
            Per Hebrew 13:3 please "Remember those in prison": http://bibleforums.org/forumdisplay....secuted-Church

            Acts 21 Now they have been informed about you that you continually teach all the Jews who live among the Gentiles to turn back from and forsake Moses...Therefore do just what we tell you....thus everybody will know that there is no truth in what they have been told about you, but that you yourself walk in observance of the Law of Moses.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Stephen1 View Post
              This passage of scripture definitely sets the Lord against the beast and His followers
              .
              I agree with you on this point. Jesus is against both evil armies. He is against the beast and his allies, and is also against the Gog/Assyrian alliance.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by markdrums View Post
                The battle is already going on. It HAS BEEN since the rebellion of the angels in Heaven.
                Armegeddon isn't going to be an actual "fight" between two sides..... it's the final fulfillment of the prophecy, when Satan is given his eternal judment, and the curse of sin & death are no longer.

                Satan is still gathering his army to fight against God (on a daily basis.....) so the "war" is in progress.

                This is a spiritual war, not a physical one. And the "Great battle at the end" is not going to be a battle in the sense that we normally use.
                All it's going to take is a spoken command from God, and the "Battle" is over.

                That's how I view it.
                Hi Markdrums,

                I prefer more literal interpretations. We will just have to see
                Last edited by DurbanDude; Mar 21st 2009, 08:09 PM. Reason: Edit

                Comment


                • #9
                  DD,

                  "I agree with you on this point. Jesus is against both evil armies. He is against the beast and his allies, and is also against the Gog/Assyrian alliance"

                  >I would suggest to you that these opposers are one and the same

                  >The beast in the little horn is the Assyrian and the human armies are his followers

                  .....and gog is actually satan addressed in Ezekiel's vision [Ezekiel 38:17]
                  Stephen

                  2Peter
                  1:19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    ....But have ya'll noticed yet...The major difference between the seperate battles of "magog" & Armegeddon..? Ezeqiel gives us a clear & distinguished lineup of "MOSLEM nations"...whereas Armegeddon includes all the remaining nations of the earth....and I realize Zeke had a lot on his mind when giving us this role call of "MOSLEM" nations but how could he have possibly omitted,forgotten, or did he just fail to mention the big time ,end time players, "THE KINGS OF THE EAST"... as they are no where to be found in Ezekiel 38-39...any ideas brethren....? well quite simply they are not combatants in the magog battle..thus providing further evidence "magog" & armegeddon are different battles....
                    sing it w/me...and thats my story and i'm stickin' to it....

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Stephen1 View Post
                      DD,

                      "I agree with you on this point. Jesus is against both evil armies. He is against the beast and his allies, and is also against the Gog/Assyrian alliance"

                      >I would suggest to you that these opposers are one and the same
                      Stephen, your view here is just impossible! If the antichrist lives in Israel, is crowned in Israel, has already taken over Israel earlier, and controls the whole world, why would he ever want to attack Israel?

                      The attack on the antichrist from the north and the east of Israel happens just before the antichrist dies (Daniel 11:40-45), these are his enemies that attack Israel and take him by surprise. Why do you think Israel is at peace until close to the day of the Lord? Because the world is under the control of the antichrist for the last 3.5 year period until the second coming and day of the Lord.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        icon,

                        "....But have ya'll noticed yet...The major difference between the seperate battles of "magog" & Armegeddon..? Ezeqiel gives us a clear & distinguished lineup of "MOSLEM nations"...whereas Armegeddon includes all the remaining nations of the earth....and I realize Zeke had a lot on his mind when giving us this role call of "MOSLEM" nations but how could he have possibly omitted,forgotten, or did he just fail to mention the big time ,end time players, "THE KINGS OF THE EAST"... as they are no where to be found in Ezekiel 38-39...any ideas brethren....? well quite simply they are not combatants in the magog battle..thus providing further evidence "magog" & armegeddon are different battles..."

                        >The visions of the Bible prophets must be taken together in order to complete the full explanation of the time of the end

                        >Each sees different parts

                        >Ezekiel's vision has two parts .... satan's invasion of Israel .... and then the vision jumps to the battle of Armageddon where the Lord will intervene and destroy his beast, false prophet, and human followers

                        >This vision includes the same battle of Armageddon described in Revelation

                        >"All nations" is a term that is used to describe primarily the nations surrounding Israel in the Middle East [Zechariah 14]

                        >Ezekiel gives the outer nations of the Middle East proper

                        >Psalms identifies the inner core of Israel's enemies

                        >The other nations of the world will be subdued by satan's beast and followers

                        >This beast's base of operations will be centered in the northern Middle East

                        >He will successfully conquer the Middle East, all opposition from other nations outside of the Middle East [south, far east, and far north], and Israel [Daniel 11:36-44]

                        >He will even conquer MBG's great city part [a nation] of the western Gentiles just at the beginning of the tribulation period [Revelation 8:1-12; 17:16-18; 18:1-19]
                        Stephen

                        2Peter
                        1:19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          DD,

                          "Stephen, your view here is just impossible! If the antichrist lives in Israel, is crowned in Israel, has already taken over Israel earlier, and controls the whole world, why would he ever want to attack Israel?"

                          >The "antichrist" does not live in Israel, but come from the northern Middle East [Daniel 8:9, 11:36] [Micah 5]

                          >He is called the "Assyrian" in the visions of the Bible prophets

                          >He will be Israel's arch enemy and will have to conquer the nation in order to occupy it and make it part of His Middle Eastern kingdom

                          >He will invade Israel at the middle of the 70th week .... this is not the battle of Armageddon [Daniel 9:26-27] [Zechariah 14 1:5] [Revelation 12]

                          >He will then rule over Israel for 42 months [1,260 days] [Revelation 11:2]

                          >The believing Israelite remnant will have to flee the nation for protection in the Jordanian wilderness area east of Israel and will be foe the same 1,260 days [last half of the tribulation period]

                          >The Lord will then force him and his followers to fight at Armageddon
                          Stephen

                          2Peter
                          1:19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Stephen1 View Post
                            >The "antichrist" does not live in Israel, but come from the northern Middle East [Daniel 8:9, 11:36] [Micah 5]
                            Ok, but then how else would you interpret this:
                            11:45 And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain

                            >He is called the "Assyrian" in the visions of the Bible prophets
                            There is an Assyrian often mentioned in the bible, but where is any indication that this is the antichrist or beast?

                            >He will be Israel's arch enemy and will have to conquer the nation in order to occupy it and make it part of His Middle Eastern kingdom
                            This could be true, no problem here.

                            >He will invade Israel at the middle of the 70th week .... this is not the battle of Armageddon [Daniel 9:26-27] [Zechariah 14 1:5] [Revelation 12]
                            I agree he will invade Israel earlier, no problem here.

                            >He will then rule over Israel for 42 months [1,260 days] [Revelation 11:2]
                            Agreed!

                            >The believing Israelite remnant will have to flee the nation for protection in the Jordanian wilderness area east of Israel and will be foe the same 1,260 days [last half of the tribulation period]
                            Disagree here, as far as I understand it, they will be living peacably in Israel during the last period, which is the period that the antichrist rules earth.To get a real grip on this, you should read the whole chapter of Ezekiel 38, but here are some parts:

                            38:15 And thou shalt come from thy place out of the north parts, thou, and many people with thee, all of them riding upon horses, a great company, and a mighty army:
                            38:16 And thou shalt come up against my people of Israel, as a cloud to cover the land; it shall be in the latter days, and I will bring thee against my land, that the heathen may know me, when I shall be sanctified in thee, O Gog, before their eyes.


                            38:18 And it shall come to pass at the same time when Gog shall come against the land of Israel, saith the Lord GOD, that my fury shall come up in my face.
                            38:19 For in my jealousy and in the fire of my wrath have I spoken, Surely in that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel;
                            38:20 So that the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep upon the earth, and all the men that are upon the face of the earth, shall shake at my presence, and the mountains shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground.

                            During the end of the tribulation period, Israel is at peace, and the Jews are living there. When Gog attacks Israel, God intervenes to protect Israel.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by DurbanDude View Post
                              Hi Markdrums,

                              I prefer more literal interpretations. We will just have to see
                              Hey DD,
                              I understand your point of view..... so let me ask you this... just for giggles & for sake of clarification. (Which applies to a literal battle of Armegeddon, or a spiritual battle)

                              From a LITERAL interpretation standpoint, how do you interpret Daniel's vision & instructions, as well as John's vision & instruction of Revelation?

                              Daniel: Was told to SEAL UP his vision because the time was "far-off"- which turned out to be a few hundred years.

                              John: was told NOT TO SEAL UP his vision, because the time was NEAR/AT HAND, and the things must SOON take place.

                              According to the LITERAL point of view, Daniel's vision should literally be a longer amount of time between the vision and it's fulfillment. Correct? So.... if that's literally the case, then why was Daniel's vision of a few HUNDRED years considered "Far-off"..... if John's vision was considered NEAR, and it's been over 2000 years?

                              If we're talking abouta strict "literal" interpretation, then you've got to apply those rules all the way through the Bible whenever they make sense that way. Right?

                              So.... the time frame for "far off" = a few hundred years for Daniel.
                              "Near/at hand" = 2000+ years for John?...... How does that make sense?

                              That's why I personally think trying to force a literal interpretation into scripture whenever possible, leads to missing the true meaning.

                              The "battle" between God & the unrighteous began with Lucifer's rebellion. That "battle" has been going on ever since. And why would there be a need for an actual physical "fight" between God & the angels VS. Satan & the demons?

                              There's no scriptural support for physical confrontation ever happening between God and any of the fallen angels. Why would Revelation be any different?

                              Hebrews 11:1 Now Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
                              _______________________________________________
                              There was a time when I used to think Macro-evolution might be a possibility..... but then I GREW UP!
                              ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                              Meike & I have the same birthday! Na-na na, na-na!!!

                              Comment

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