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  • Discussion the 2 horns

    Rev 13.11 Then I saw a second beast, coming out of the earth. It had two horns like a lamb, but it spoke like a dragon.
    Dan 8.3 I looked up, and there before me was a ram with two horns, standing beside the canal, and the horns were long. One of the horns was longer than the other but grew up later.

    Really, the 2 horns of the 2nd Beast has stumped me for a long time, and I'd just like to hear more views on it, as well as to suggest a possible alternative to how some have seen it. In Dan 7, dealing with the endtimes, there are 10 horns. They represent, as far as I can tell, 10 kingdoms, or 10 nations, which exist simultaneously. They emerge from the 4th Beast, which appeared consecutively from 1st Beast to 2nd Beast to 3rd Beast to 4th Beast.

    But the 2nd Beast in Rev 13 appears to exist simultaneously with the 1st Beast, so that they both correspond to the endtimes scenario in which Antichrist rules over 10 nations and 7 kings. We are told that the 1st Beast is the Empire of the Antichrist, as well as representative of Antichrist himself. And the 2nd Beast is the "False Prophet," who causes the world to worship the Antichrist.

    So if we know what the 10 horns and the 7 heads of the 1st Beast are, what are the 2 horns of the 2nd Beast? I suggest that the 2 Beasts, though in agreement with one another, are actually 2 separate entities. The 1st is an Empire, and the 2nd is a Kingdom, consisting of 2 nations.

    If you notice above, in Dan 8 we see that the Medes and Persians form a dual Kingdom, and are represented by 2 horns. I suggest the same may be true of this False Prophet. He may preside over 2 distinct nations, in order to form a single Kingdom. Inasmuch as this False Prophet is a religious man, my thought is that this dual Kingdom represents a religious coalition, perhaps between apostate Christianity and Islam. Perhaps 2 major religious nations form a coalition in defense of the Antichrist--perhaps Italy and Turkey. These represents the 2 old centers of the Roman Empire.

    Of course, I don't really have a clue, because there's nothing to confirm my view here, regardless. But I'd certainly be interested if any here have a version that either debunks this, refines it, or agrees with it?

  • #2
    Originally posted by randyk View Post
    Rev 13.11 Then I saw a second beast, coming out of the earth. It had two horns like a lamb, but it spoke like a dragon.
    Dan 8.3 I looked up, and there before me was a ram with two horns, standing beside the canal, and the horns were long. One of the horns was longer than the other but grew up later.

    Really, the 2 horns of the 2nd Beast has stumped me for a long time, and I'd just like to hear more views on it, as well as to suggest a possible alternative to how some have seen it. In Dan 7, dealing with the endtimes, there are 10 horns. They represent, as far as I can tell, 10 kingdoms, or 10 nations, which exist simultaneously. They emerge from the 4th Beast, which appeared consecutively from 1st Beast to 2nd Beast to 3rd Beast to 4th Beast.

    But the 2nd Beast in Rev 13 appears to exist simultaneously with the 1st Beast, so that they both correspond to the endtimes scenario in which Antichrist rules over 10 nations and 7 kings. We are told that the 1st Beast is the Empire of the Antichrist, as well as representative of Antichrist himself. And the 2nd Beast is the "False Prophet," who causes the world to worship the Antichrist.

    So if we know what the 10 horns and the 7 heads of the 1st Beast are, what are the 2 horns of the 2nd Beast? I suggest that the 2 Beasts, though in agreement with one another, are actually 2 separate entities. The 1st is an Empire, and the 2nd is a Kingdom, consisting of 2 nations.

    If you notice above, in Dan 8 we see that the Medes and Persians form a dual Kingdom, and are represented by 2 horns. I suggest the same may be true of this False Prophet. He may preside over 2 distinct nations, in order to form a single Kingdom. Inasmuch as this False Prophet is a religious man, my thought is that this dual Kingdom represents a religious coalition, perhaps between apostate Christianity and Islam. Perhaps 2 major religious nations form a coalition in defense of the Antichrist--perhaps Italy and Turkey. These represents the 2 old centers of the Roman Empire.

    Of course, I don't really have a clue, because there's nothing to confirm my view here, regardless. But I'd certainly be interested if any here have a version that either debunks this, refines it, or agrees with it?
    I believe that your ideas are on the right track. Let me briefly explain.

    The great image, of Daniel 2, is a portrayal of the last days when all 4 kingdoms of gold, silver, brass, and iron & clay, will unite into one kingdom. When the kingdom of god, the stone mountain, strikes the image and breaks into its individual pieces:

    Dan 2:34-35 KJV Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces. Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.

    Let us not overlook the fact that it is the little horn that shall BREAK the whole world into PIECES:

    Dan 7:23 KJV Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and BREAK it in PIECES.

    the after result is the kingdom of god is set up, at the 7th trumpet :

    Rev 11:15 KJV And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

    Dan 7:14 KJV And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

    The 10 horns/ sovereign kingdoms give their kingdom unto the beast [a kingdom in itself... that devolves into the 2nd beast from the earth] for a very short period of time, an hour. This is portrayed by the beast from the earth having 7 heads and 10 horns:

    Rev 13:2 KJV And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

    In this first beast you have all 4 kingdoms, constituted by the gold, silver, brass, and iron and clay, portrayed in Rev 13:2... leopard, bear , lion, and the 4th beast (from the earth! ). We see this also in Daniel 7:

    Dan 7:19 KJV Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth were of IRON, and his nails of BRASS; which devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet;

    In their heyday, Rome and Greece, in an of themselves, also controlled the kingdoms of gold and silver, Babylon and Persia. Thus there is no need for using gold and silver to describe this 4th kingdom of Daniel 7. So here is the kicker. The 3rd kingdom, the leopard has 4 heads. If a beast, [lion, bear, 4th beast] has only 1 head, there is no need to state such. A "beast" must have a head. That gives us 4 + 1 +1 +1 = 7 heads. When the kingdom of god is set up at the 7th trumpet , these 4 kingdoms are broken up into their individual parts of gold(1), silver(1), brass(4) and 4th (1). This beast from the earth, almost certainly has 2 of the 10 horns, and 1 head of the 7 found within the "Kingdom" of the great image. This automatically eliminated the brass kingdom of Greece. It must be one of the other 3 kingdoms/ kings. We know that Media - Persia, as you noted had 2 horns. I don't think that we should look beyond the 4th beast that the 10 kings give their power to for an hour. This seems to be a logistical nightmare. The 4th king (from the earth) is the king of Media Persia, before its breakup, and the Bear is also the king of Media Persia ? What we must remember is that the 4th beast from the earth (a king) subdues the other 3 beasts (kings of the earth). What happens then? Daniel 7 says that the saints shall consume "the kingdom of the beast".

    Dan 7:22 KJV Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.
    Dan 7:26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.

    This 4th beast, 4th king from the earth, subdues the other 3 kings. I lean heavily towards this 4th kingdom being the revived 2 horn kingdom of Media Persia... If you will, it will ascend from the bottomless pit. But, I haven't completely ruled out that it might be the kingdom of Babylon. The 2 horns stumps me on that issue. I don't think that Rome would qualify because it's size would probably preclude having more than 2 horns.

    Be Blessed
    The PuP

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    • #3
      I also believe you are on the right track, the two horns of the goat of Dan 8 give us an indication of a two-part kingdom of the second beast of Rev 13. The relative size of the horn seems to represent the relative "power" of that kingdom. (four kingdoms shall arise out of that nation, but not with its power.)

      If we apply this to the second beast of Rev 13, we can see that is has two VERY TINY horns (two horns like a lamb). This means that the two parts of that empire have small kingdoms, yet we see that it has vast religious influence over the nations of the world.
      "he exercises all the authority of the first beast in his presence, and causes the earth (land) and those who dwell in it to worship the first beast"

      I therefore regard the "false prophet" beast , as being two small locations each with vast religious influence. Everything seems to point to Vatican (in Rome) and Caliphate (in Istanbul), the two main centre's of the two biggest religions on the planet. The fact that these are the two ancient capitals of the Roman Empire adds strength to the viewpoint.
      This two-part religious Rome supports the antichrist (first beast) when he comes to power in Israel for 42 months of rule.

      Comment


      • #4
        Here is how I see the Land Beast and these two horns

        BEAST OF THE LAND

        John describes that of another beast coming up out of the land having two horns like a Lamb speaking like a dragon (serpent) denoting of a divided tongue. The two horns represent two leaders of this beast from the land as we understand horns from the book of Daniel. The two horns could indicate such as the High Priest and the acting governing Ruler over the land of Israel or as such as mentioned of Isaiah 3 of the Elders and Rulers in a since the two governing factions over Israel . This is even indicating the fanatical sect of Zealots in the first century with their fanatical and uncompromising in pursuit of their religious, political.


        Where “earth” or “land” were commonly in relationship to the land of Israel. As in relationship in how Isaiah 24 spoke of the land of Israel and its inhabitance being desolated.
        “24 Behold, the Lord maketh the earth(land)empty, and maketh it waste, and turneth it upside down, and scattereth abroad the inhabitants thereof.2 And it shall be, as with the people, so with the priest; as with the servant, so with his master; as with the maid, so with her mistress; as with the buyer, so with the seller; as with the lender, so with the borrower; as with the taker of usury, so with the giver of usury to him.3 The land shall be utterly emptied, and utterly spoiled: for the Lord hath spoken this word.4 The earth mourneth and fadeth away, the world languisheth and fadeth away, the haughty people of the earth do languish.5 The earth (land)also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant.6 Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate: therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left”
        Thus the beast which rises from the land is imagery of how beastly this Jewish entity rose up from the land of Israel having two horns (two leaders, Elders and Rulers) forcing the people to worship the pagan image of the kingdoms.

        This beast of the land is more powerful than the first in the since he can manipulate persuade the people into worshipping the image and causing the image to come to life that of the wounded head coming to life as we described as representing Greece and causing all to worship this image. Again John is using the same as from Daniel in that king Nebuchadnezzar had made an image and forced all to worship the image. That image was of a man for the king had seen it in his dream (Dan. 2:37-43, 3:1).

        In later chapters John makes the connection between the second Beast from the Land to that of a False Prophet (Rev.16:13, 19:20) that both spoke the same as the dragon that is with an unclean spirit or unclean mouth and did works and miracles. So it might be seen that in John descriptions of this beast of the land it would appear to be the same as the false prophet. These two descriptions of a land beast (behemoth) and false prophet give insight to that of the land of Israel, apostate Israel. Those that are Hellenized by the pagan religions and attempt to persuade or by force the people of Israel to accept and worship the pagan kingdoms through their religions.

        Roger Beck


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        • #5
          Originally posted by randyk View Post
          Rev 13.11 Then I saw a second beast, coming out of the earth. It had two horns like a lamb, but it spoke like a dragon.
          Dan 8.3 I looked up, and there before me was a ram with two horns, standing beside the canal, and the horns were long. One of the horns was longer than the other but grew up later.
          Don't confuse the two, one is a ram the other a lamb. The Ram is clearly identifies as MP.

          Really, the 2 horns of the 2nd Beast has stumped me for a long time, and I'd just like to hear more views on it as well as to suggest a possible alternative to how some have seen it. In Dan 7, dealing with the endtimes, there are 10 horns. They represent, as far as I can tell, 10 kingdoms, or 10 nations, which exist simultaneously.
          The first beast Rev 13 has 10 horns, the second 2. Thus there are a total of 12 horns. Biblically speaking 12 represents Israel, the 12 tribes. Note not only are there 12 total horns but didved correctly into 10 and 2 representing the two houses of Israel. Thus the second beast would be the (false) lamb from the tribe of Judah.

          But the 2nd Beast in Rev 13 appears to exist simultaneously with the 1st Beast, so that they both correspond to the endtimes scenario in which Antichrist rules over 10 nations and 7 kings. We are told that the 1st Beast is the Empire of the Antichrist, as well as representative of Antichrist himself. And the 2nd Beast is the "False Prophet," who causes the world to worship the Antichrist.
          The second beast would be the last king hence the 8 king. The first beast Rev 13 is a picture of the 4th kingdom empire. So this would mean the first beast is not a person but represents a person. So it is like the second beast causes the world to worship the first, AKA Christ causes us the worship God.

          Of course, I don't really have a clue, because there's nothing to confirm my view here, regardless. But I'd certainly be interested if any here have a version that either debunks this, refines it, or agrees with it?
          So when we use scripture to identify the horns we see a big picture of the false Lamb (Christ) is control over Israel (horns) and over the church (7 heads). Then not to mention has a woman who is his bride. So we all need to get Greece, Rome and whatever non biblical theory out of our minds.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Beckrl View Post
            Here is how I see the Land Beast and these two horns

            BEAST OF THE LAND

            John describes that of another beast coming up out of the land having two horns like a Lamb speaking like a dragon (serpent) denoting of a divided tongue. The two horns represent two leaders of this beast from the land as we understand horns from the book of Daniel. The two horns could indicate such as the High Priest and the acting governing Ruler over the land of Israel or as such as mentioned of Isaiah 3 of the Elders and Rulers in a since the two governing factions over Israel . This is even indicating the fanatical sect of Zealots in the first century with their fanatical and uncompromising in pursuit of their religious, political.

            The first beast Rev 13 has 10 horns, the second 2. Thus there are a total of 12 horns. Biblically speaking 12 represents Israel, the 12 tribes. Note not only are there 12 total horns but didved correctly into 10 and 2 representing the two houses of Israel. Thus the second beast would be the (false) lamb from the tribe of Judah.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by DurbanDude View Post

              I therefore regard the "false prophet" beast , as being two small locations each with vast religious influence. Everything seems to point to Vatican (in Rome) and Caliphate (in Istanbul), the two main centre's of the two biggest religions on the planet. The fact that these are the two ancient capitals of the Roman Empire adds strength to the viewpoint.
              This two-part religious Rome supports the antichrist (first beast) when he comes to power in Israel for 42 months of rule.
              The first beast Rev 13 has 10 horns, the second 2. Thus there are a total of 12 horns. Biblically speaking 12 represents Israel, the 12 tribes. Note not only are there 12 total horns but didved correctly into 10 and 2 representing the two houses of Israel. Thus the second beast would be the (false) lamb from the tribe of Judah

              So when we use scripture to identify the horns we see a big picture of the false Lamb (Christ) is control over Israel (horns) and over the church (7 heads). Then not to mention has a woman who is his bride. So we all need to get Greece, Rome and whatever non biblical theory out of our minds.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by ross3421 View Post

                The first beast Rev 13 has 10 horns, the second 2. Thus there are a total of 12 horns. Biblically speaking 12 represents Israel, the 12 tribes. Note not only are there 12 total horns but didved correctly into 10 and 2 representing the two houses of Israel. Thus the second beast would be the (false) lamb from the tribe of Judah.
                I'm not even sure how you jump to that conclusion .

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Beckrl View Post

                  I'm not even sure how you jump to that conclusion .

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by ross3421 View Post

                    The reason I said that is because the first beast from the sea is parallel to Daniel which identify as pagan kingdoms and their kings. The ten was said to come form the fourth pagan kingdom.. This has nothing to do with the ten tribes of Israel. So it's a huge jump to claim these are the northern tribes of Israel

                    Revelation is having a vision of these past kingdoms one of which has the ten horns ...A look back to Daniel 7

                    23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces. 24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise:

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Beckrl View Post

                      The reason I said that is because the first beast from the sea is parallel to Daniel
                      We agree but notice all the four beasts (kings) are earth at the same time! Thus they cannot be past kingdoms.

                      12
                      As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.

                      The four beasts come up together from the sea.




                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by ross3421 View Post

                        We agree but notice all the four beasts (kings) are earth at the same time! Thus they cannot be past kingdoms.

                        12
                        As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.

                        The four beasts come up together from the sea.



                        What? The book of Daniel show the four beast kingdoms being consecutive one after the other. Now the statement is that their lives were prolonged...is to say there kingdoms remained to some degree while under the conquering Kingdom.

                        So when John vision sees them they were seen as attubutes, collectively into one kingdom. The image of Revelation is the collective seven kingdoms the Five that had fallen the one that was present and the one to come.

                        it's imperative that we understand this.

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                        • #13
                          [QUOTE]
                          Originally posted by Beckrl View Post

                          What? The book of Daniel show the four beast kingdoms being consecutive one after the other
                          .

                          Where does it say they are consecutive?

                          22 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.

                          23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

                          Four kingdoms come up together though consecutively they may fall. Notice is says plural "their" and "transgressors"



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                          • #14
                            [QUOTE=ross3421;n2698291]
                            .

                            Where does it say they are consecutive?

                            22 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.

                            23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

                            Four kingdoms come up together though consecutively they may fall. Notice is says plural "their" and "transgressors"


                            In Daniel 2 vision it shown them in consecutive.


                            I wasn't referring to Daniel 8 , but the four beast kingdoms of Chapter 7.

                            let's not get this confused.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by randyk View Post
                              Rev 13.11 Then I saw a second beast, coming out of the earth. It had two horns like a lamb, but it spoke like a dragon.
                              Dan 8.3 I looked up, and there before me was a ram with two horns, standing beside the canal, and the horns were long. One of the horns was longer than the other but grew up later.

                              Really, the 2 horns of the 2nd Beast has stumped me for a long time, and I'd just like to hear more views on it, as well as to suggest a possible alternative to how some have seen it. In Dan 7, dealing with the endtimes, there are 10 horns. They represent, as far as I can tell, 10 kingdoms, or 10 nations, which exist simultaneously. They emerge from the 4th Beast, which appeared consecutively from 1st Beast to 2nd Beast to 3rd Beast to 4th Beast.

                              But the 2nd Beast in Rev 13 appears to exist simultaneously with the 1st Beast, so that they both correspond to the endtimes scenario in which Antichrist rules over 10 nations and 7 kings. We are told that the 1st Beast is the Empire of the Antichrist, as well as representative of Antichrist himself. And the 2nd Beast is the "False Prophet," who causes the world to worship the Antichrist.

                              So if we know what the 10 horns and the 7 heads of the 1st Beast are, what are the 2 horns of the 2nd Beast? I suggest that the 2 Beasts, though in agreement with one another, are actually 2 separate entities. The 1st is an Empire, and the 2nd is a Kingdom, consisting of 2 nations.

                              If you notice above, in Dan 8 we see that the Medes and Persians form a dual Kingdom, and are represented by 2 horns. I suggest the same may be true of this False Prophet. He may preside over 2 distinct nations, in order to form a single Kingdom. Inasmuch as this False Prophet is a religious man, my thought is that this dual Kingdom represents a religious coalition, perhaps between apostate Christianity and Islam. Perhaps 2 major religious nations form a coalition in defense of the Antichrist--perhaps Italy and Turkey. These represents the 2 old centers of the Roman Empire.

                              Of course, I don't really have a clue, because there's nothing to confirm my view here, regardless. But I'd certainly be interested if any here have a version that either debunks this, refines it, or agrees with it?
                              The False Prophet has no control of "2 distinct nations" as you suggest. I am not sure whether another inference exists in scripture where a horn is directly likened to a specific animal. Therefore, when we read the horns of the 2nd beast of Rev 13:11 (which denote power scripturally) are like those of a lamb, the reader should understand that in relation to the first beast (AC), the FP has limited power. As far as animal horns go, a lamb's horn pretty much ranks bottom in the scale of size and since horns represent power and influence - this is what it's all about.

                              Forgive me for saying so, I believe that the 2 distinct nation idea and the purported coalition between the apostate church and Islam are fantasies that can't be substantiated in the passage.

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