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  • #91
    Originally posted by ross3421 View Post
    Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day?


    or shall a nation be born at once?
    for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.

    The text shows Zion and her children as being two different groups. The children being the nation of Israel.


    There are only two "groups" of people in Rev 12:

    1) The Woman (Zion, or Israel or Jerusalem, or 144,000) - All represent the woman
    2) The remnant of her seed (Jewish Converts to Christianity and gentile converts to Christianity) - All represent the remnant of her seed


    But the man child is the 1st born of Zion (the Woman). My friend, the man child is Jesus

    Comment


    • #92
      [QUOTE]
      Originally posted by TMarcum View Post

      There are only two "groups" of people in Rev 12:

      1) The Woman (Zion, or Israel or Jerusalem, or 144,000) - All represent the woman
      There is only one group of people mentioned.
      The woman is the city not both city and the 144,000, The 144,000 are her children.


      2) The remnant of her seed (Jewish Converts to Christianity and gentile converts to Christianity) - All represent the remnant of her seed
      Remnant of her seed clearly are the 144,000 not the church. Here again we have the teaching we all become one in the church and the covenant to Israel is voided. Why are the seminaries teaching this stuff?




      Comment


      • #93
        Originally posted by ross3421 View Post

        Did the woman flee into the wilderness in the first century?
        The passage doesn't state when it happens other than at some point after Christ's ascension and before the war in heaven.



        You see verse 5 and 6 are consecutive and not thousands of years apart. Thus since the woman has not yet fleed to the wilderness neither has the male child been born concerning Rev 12. The male child is born just prior to the 3.5 year period.
        Again, the passage does not refer to how much time passes but the male child is Christ and was born long ago.


        The male child is Israel who "was" to rule the world with a rod of Iron thus Christ "will" rule with the rod of Iron.
        Israel is not going to rule the world with a rod of iron. That only is written concerning Christ and the overcomers who are Christians.


        There is only one other mention of a birth of a male child and it refers to Israel.

        7
        Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child.
        8
        Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.

        Zion is the woman, the male child is the nation of Israel.
        That is a different male child. Obviously the children of Israel were born LONG ago. Rev 12 is the church age which is LONG after Israel began.



        Rev 14 shows this nation redeemed and then caught back back up God and his throne.
        They are on Earth on a mountain outside of Jerusalem. Isaiah also is clearly talking about old Israel being born not the 144k.





        James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

        Comment


        • #94
          [QUOTE=ross3421;n2704471]

          There is only one group of people mentioned.
          The woman is the city not both city and the 144,000, The 144,000 are her children.



          Remnant of her seed clearly are the 144,000 not the church. Here again we have the teaching we all become one in the church and the covenant to Israel is voided. Why are the seminaries teaching this stuff?

          No, the woman is not a city or a territory.
          Israel are the actual descendants of Abraham, and they occupy the land of Israel. A city cannot give birth to a man child.
          The woman is Israel and a representation of the whole house of Israel, bound by the Mosaic Law. The man child is the illustration of the new grace covenant which was born from the old covenant of God.

          Try to understand this; Christ came out of Zion as a man child being her first born. The Lamb without blemish and the sacrifice of the Woman. The remnant of the seed of the Woman is the bride of the man child caught up to God and his throne.

          The death of Jesus had to occur 1st or the remnant of the seed would not exist. Without the birth of the man child, the remnant of seed of the woman would still be the called the Woman (just more of the children of Israel).

          The remnant of the seed of the woman comes to be the seed through the death, (or in this case) the birth of the man child


          Comment


          • #95
            Originally posted by TMarcum View Post
            No, the woman is not a city

            A woman in the same book is referred to as a city twice.

            18
            And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

            2
            And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

            So safe to say the woman in Rev 12 is a city.



            Comment


            • #96
              Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post

              The passage doesn't state when it happens other than at some point after Christ's ascension and before the war in heaven.
              I think we agree it has not happened yet. Does it then make sense to you thousands perhaps millions of years could pass before she flees? (millions as we don't know exactly then when verse 6 will occur)





              That is a different male child. Obviously the children of Israel were born LONG ago. .
              Where they all born in one day as IS 66 indicates in the past long ago?

              Where do the 144K come from for them to be sealed in Rev 7. How will they be recognized? Where are they now?

              Is it possible they are all born in a day as seen in Ez 37.? This may answer all these questions.

              4 Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the Lord.
              5 Thus saith the Lord God unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live:
              6 And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the Lord.
              7 So I prophesied as I was commanded: and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold a shaking, and the bones came together, bone to his bone.
              8 And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them above: but there was no breath in them.
              9 Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord God; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live.
              10 So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army.
              11
              Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.






              Comment


              • #97
                Originally posted by ross3421 View Post

                I think we agree it has not happened yet. Does it then make sense to you thousands perhaps millions of years could pass before she flees? (millions as we don't know exactly then when verse 6 will occur)
                That's a pretty extreme exaggeration. My point is the text does not say it happens soon after the ascension. The chap cover the birth of Christ and ends with Satan starting the GT so we have to properly place the other events within that timeline.

                Where they all born in one day as IS 66 indicates in the past long ago?
                The birth of Israel happened long ago. The birth in Rev 12 is long after Israel was a nation.


                Where do the 144K come from for them to be sealed in Rev 7.
                They are born long enough before the start of the GT so they can be proper servants of God which means I doubt any are children. They would be adults of various ages.

                How will they be recognized? Where are they now?
                We don't need to know any of that, only God does.


                Is it possible they are all born in a day as seen in Ez 37.? This may answer all these questions.
                No, that passage is about Israel.

                Isa 66:7 Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child.

                Here she brought forth the child BEFORE suffering any pain.

                Rev 12:2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

                This woman has pain BEFORE giving birth which is the opposite of the woman in the first verse.

                Clearly not speaking of the same birth.











                James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

                Comment


                • #98
                  Originally posted by ross3421 View Post

                  A woman in the same book is referred to as a city twice.

                  18
                  And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.




                  My friend, please understand that this woman in the reference you made is not a city, being made up of buildings and streets.

                  The city referred to here is clearly a kingdom. Of no shadow of uncertainty is referring to dominion, principalities, and powers. The text plainly states that here, the woman is that great city that "reigns" over the kings of the earth. This is clearly the governing powers.

                  Building and streets have no life and cannot reign.


                  Originally posted by ross3421 View Post

                  2
                  And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.




                  Again, I know you think this passage is all about the structure, streets, rivers,..... But it's not.

                  yes, this was a city and is refered to as a city and not a woman. However, the bride was inside this city. John plainly described them in there and it was filled with saints.

                  Originally posted by ross3421 View Post

                  So safe to say the woman in Rev 12 is a city.



                  Originally posted by ross3421 View Post

                  So does that give you a better idea to illustrate that the Woman in Rev 12 is not merely the land, rivers, mountains, streets, building that define the location of Israel? It's not a location on the map.

                  The woman is a group of people of Israel governed by the Mosaic Law.

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    Originally posted by TMarcum View Post

                    My friend, please understand that this woman in the reference you made is not a city, being made up of buildings and streets.

                    The city referred to here is clearly a kingdom. Of no shadow of uncertainty is referring to dominion, principalities, and powers. The text plainly states that here, the woman is that great city that "reigns" over the kings of the earth. This is clearly the governing powers.

                    Building and streets have no life and cannot reign.
                    The waters are the people. The woman is the city.

                    15
                    And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.


                    18
                    And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.





                    Again, I know you think this passage is all about the structure, streets, rivers,..... But it's not.

                    yes, this was a city and is refered to as a city and not a woman. However, the bride was inside this city. John plainly described them in there and it was filled with saints.

                    2
                    And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

                    Do the clothes you wear become you? She is dressed in white which is the attire of the saints. She being the woman is the city which is dressed with the saints. So it's like a woman getting married and putting on a wedding dress they become one however, the dress does not become the bride, the woman is still the bride.


                    7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
                    8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.


                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by ross3421 View Post

                      The waters are the people. The woman is the city.

                      15
                      And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.





                      18
                      And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.



                      Yes, the waters are people. So now, you can clearly understand that the woman was the corrupt governing power of leaders and had dominion over the citizens. Or in this case the waters were deceived followers of their leaders.

                      Try to look at it as a Robin Hood story setting. The Sherriff of Nottingham is the woman. The citizens of Nottingham were the waters.

                      The woman in Rev 12 does not have the same governing structure as the Whore (woman) in Rev 17.

                      You are not going to be able to make a fair or equal comparison between the (2) women. These have different governing systems. You are trying to compare apples to oranges.

                      In the case with the Woman of Rev 12, God is the supreme leader of the people and the Mosaic Law is his governing system and there is really no hierarchy similar to God's system.

                      The Woman is the body of people who are ruled by God. And God's governing constitution is the Mosaic Law. Yeah they had prophets and kings, but they were for the most part the mouth piece or mediator between God and the Mosaic Law and the People. The Woman represents the people and the Mosaic Law as one
                      entity. And the woman's wife is God.

                      In the case with Rev 12, The man child is the son that brings forth a different governing system. Its his birth (or his death in this case) is what changes the old to the new. That brings us from the Mosaic Law to the New Grace Covenant.

                      So you can't really make a good comparison between the (2) women in Rev 12 & Rev 17.




                      Rev 17:15
                      And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by TMarcum View Post

                        So you can't really make a good comparison between the (2) women in Rev 12 & Rev 17.
                        They sure are adorned the same. Note scarlet and purple are the color of the linens the people adorned Jerusalem in the OT.

                        Rev 17

                        4
                        And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls,

                        Rev 22


                        19
                        And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones.

                        18 And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass.
                        21 And the twelve gates were twelve pearls: every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass.


                        Ask yourself where did this woman in rev 17 dressed as the one in Rev 22 come from? Well we see she comes from heaven. In Rev 12 we see this same woman coming from heaven to earth. You see all these woman in 12,17,22 are the same woman. She comes from heaven in 12 and commits fornication in 17 and then is burned with fire and made anew in 22. Jerusalem is only such a woman!!! She is the whore thoughout the scriptures!!! She is the bride of Christ.






                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by ross3421 View Post

                          They sure are adorned the same. Note scarlet and purple are the color of the linens the people adorned Jerusalem in the OT.

                          Rev 17

                          4
                          And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls,

                          Rev 22



                          19
                          And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones.


                          18 And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass.
                          21 And the twelve gates were twelve pearls: every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass.


                          Ask yourself where did this woman in rev 17 dressed as the one in Rev 22 come from? Well we see she comes from heaven. In Rev 12 we see this same woman coming from heaven to earth. You see all these woman in 12,17,22 are the same woman. She comes from heaven in 12 and commits fornication in 17 and then is burned with fire and made anew in 22. Jerusalem is only such a woman!!! She is the whore thoughout the scriptures!!! She is the bride of Christ.





                          Yes, there are many similarities. Satan often mimics God. Satan would love for you to think the woman of Rev 12 is a whore. And Satan would love for you to think the Whore of Rev 17 is a virtuous woman.

                          Do not be shocked by this. Do you know how many millions of people will believe the woman of Rev 17 is a virtuous woman?

                          My friend! I beg you! Do not fall into this deceptive trap.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by ross3421 View Post



                            Ask yourself where did this woman in rev 17 dressed as the one in Rev 22 come from? Well we see she comes from heaven. In Rev 12 we see this same woman coming from heaven to earth. You see all these woman in 12,17,22 are the same woman.

                            You claimed the woman in Rev 12 is adorned the same as the woman in Rev 17 yet you posted nothing from Rev 12 to support this claim. Instead, you went to Rev 22 and quoted something about a city not a woman and certainly not the Rev 12 woman.

                            James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

                            Comment

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