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Who is in Rev 21:9-10 - bride of Christ or the holy city/NHNE?

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  • Discussion Who is in Rev 21:9-10 - bride of Christ or the holy city/NHNE?

    Over the course of discussing another topic, the identity of what John saw in Rev 21:9-10 or the interpretation of the texts thereof have thrown up, as usual, a myriad of interpretations.

    Rev 21:9And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.

    10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

    Now, some argue that the passages above refer to the "bride" [church]. I am unable to accept this view as true when taken the whole context of the chapter into consideration. Is it possible that the holy city (aka New Jerusalem) is what John was shown descending from heaven? We know that multiple events can be revealed as God pleases in any vision as we see from Daniel's and John's visions in Revelation. Therefore I am suggesting THREE possible ways to look at verses 9-10 above.

    1. In v-9 John was actually shown the bride - the Lamb's wife - but she wasn't coming down from heaven! Although this might be a problem for those who say the church NEVER went to heaven before returning with Jesus.

    2. Verse 10 starts with "AND he carried me away in the spirit to..." this suggests that after John had seen the bride, he was then taken elsewhere and shown the holy city/NJ descending to earth. This clearly would indicate that the bride John saw in v-9 is different from the city he saw later when the angel took him up to a mountain. The scripture then goes on to detail the essentials of the holy city with its walls (Rev 21:10-27), etc. This is so the reality of the holy city/NJ would not be in question to the reader!

    3. In the 3rd option, verses Rev 21:9-10 may be all about the holy city/NJ. So how do we make sense of the reference to the "Lamb's wife"? In Jewish custom, a bride must be pure and undefiled before marriage. It is my contention that the holy city/NJ is being compared to a virgin because of its purity. Remember, it's made by God and not man (Heb 11:16). There is further support for this comparison; Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

    However, I recognise that options 1-3 cannot all be the true interpretation of the passages. But I won't force my own choice among the three on anyone, so kindly review and share your preferred interpretation of Rev 21:9-10?

  • #2
    I believe the assumption has to be made that John is shown the city, which is in effect the bride, or Church. After all, the eternal dwelling of believers will be in a *city.* The city represents the place where God dwells among His people, just as ancient Israel had to live in Jerusalem to be near the temple, where God dwelt.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Trivalee View Post

      Now, some argue that the passages above refer to the "bride" [church]. I am unable to accept this view as true when taken the whole context of the chapter into consideration. Is it possible that the holy city (aka New Jerusalem) is what John was shown descending from heaven?

      3. In the 3rd option, verses Rev 21:9-10 may be all about the holy city/NJ. So how do we make sense of the reference to the "Lamb's wife"? In Jewish custom, a bride must be pure and undefiled before marriage. It is my contention that the holy city/NJ is being compared to a virgin because of its purity. Remember, it's made by God and not man (Heb 11:16). There is further support for this comparison; Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
      The bide is the woman (city) herself not people or the church.

      Notice she is called "new" Jerusalem? What happened to the "old" Jerusalem? Well just like the heaven and earth, heavenly Jerusalem had to be purified as well.

      The city, not people are decked with jewels.

      I will greatly rejoice in the
      Lord
      , my soul shall be joyful in my God; for he hath clothed me with the garments of salvation, he hath covered me with the robe of righteousness, as a
      bride
      groom decketh himself with ornaments, and as a
      bride
      adorneth herself with her jewels.

      The church are those "called" to the marriage.



      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
        Over the course of discussing another topic, the identity of what John saw in Rev 21:9-10 or the interpretation of the texts thereof have thrown up, as usual, a myriad of interpretations.

        Rev 21:9And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.

        10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

        Now, some argue that the passages above refer to the "bride" [church]. I am unable to accept this view as true when taken the whole context of the chapter into consideration. Is it possible that the holy city (aka New Jerusalem) is what John was shown descending from heaven? We know that multiple events can be revealed as God pleases in any vision as we see from Daniel's and John's visions in Revelation. Therefore I am suggesting THREE possible ways to look at verses 9-10 above.

        1. In v-9 John was actually shown the bride - the Lamb's wife - but she wasn't coming down from heaven! Although this might be a problem for those who say the church NEVER went to heaven before returning with Jesus.

        2. Verse 10 starts with "AND he carried me away in the spirit to..." this suggests that after John had seen the bride, he was then taken elsewhere and shown the holy city/NJ descending to earth. This clearly would indicate that the bride John saw in v-9 is different from the city he saw later when the angel took him up to a mountain. The scripture then goes on to detail the essentials of the holy city with its walls (Rev 21:10-27), etc. This is so the reality of the holy city/NJ would not be in question to the reader!

        3. In the 3rd option, verses Rev 21:9-10 may be all about the holy city/NJ. So how do we make sense of the reference to the "Lamb's wife"? In Jewish custom, a bride must be pure and undefiled before marriage. It is my contention that the holy city/NJ is being compared to a virgin because of its purity. Remember, it's made by God and not man (Heb 11:16). There is further support for this comparison; Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

        However, I recognise that options 1-3 cannot all be the true interpretation of the passages. But I won't force my own choice among the three on anyone, so kindly review and share your preferred interpretation of Rev 21:9-10?
        The Church is RAPTURED to be with Jesus in Heaven, we return with him for the Marriage Supper {Armageddon} and we see in Rev. 20:4 that ONLY those who refused the Mark of the Beast and dies {Martyrs of Tribulation} are chosen to live and reign ON EARTH with Christ for 1000 years. So that is a very specific calling to a sub-set of people, this means the original Raptured Church do not live and rein on earth with Christ for 1000 years, so what do we do ? It seems we go to the New Jerusalem to help finish it off and then when it descends, it is thus called THE BRIDE of Christ because we dwell therein !!

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by randyk View Post
          I believe the assumption has to be made that John is shown the city, which is in effect the bride, or Church. After all, the eternal dwelling of believers will be in a *city.* The city represents the place where God dwells among His people, just as ancient Israel had to live in Jerusalem to be near the temple, where God dwelt.
          The bride/church cannot be the city! People live in a city ergo, the city and the bride can't be synanymous. From Rev 21:12 -21 the city was described in detail. It's walls, gates, its foundation and the decorations with precious gems, gold, sapphire, jasper, etc. And in v15-17 the city was measured and we are given its specific size. How can one associate all these to the bride/church?

          Throughout the NT, we read in different places that God has prepared us [saints/church] a city. See Heb 11:10 & 16. It is this heavenly city [NJ] that John was shown coming down from heaven.

          In Rev 22:2 we are told that "in the middle of the street of it and on either side of the river, was the tree of life..." Is the water of life and tree of life in the bride/church?

          Take your time and read Rev 21 and 22 again and see if you'll still hold the same view.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Revelation Man View Post
            The Church is RAPTURED to be with Jesus in Heaven, we return with him for the Marriage Supper {Armageddon} and we see in Rev. 20:4 that ONLY those who refused the Mark of the Beast and dies {Martyrs of Tribulation} are chosen to live and reign ON EARTH with Christ for 1000 years. So that is a very specific calling to a sub-set of people, this means the original Raptured Church do not live and rein on earth with Christ for 1000 years, so what do we do ? It seems we go to the New Jerusalem to help finish it off and then when it descends, it is thus called THE BRIDE of Christ because we dwell therein !!
            This is false. There are several scriptures (John 14:3, 1 Thess 4:17), that say when Jesus returns, we (the church) will be with him always. Furthermore, see Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

            If the church remain in heaven as you claim, which "nations" are they supposed to rule over in heaven? Thus the idea of our Lord Jesus being on earth while we remain in heaven to "help" him to build the NJ is absurd.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by ross3421 View Post

              The bide is the woman (city) herself not people or the church.

              Notice she is called "new" Jerusalem? What happened to the "old" Jerusalem? Well just like the heaven and earth, heavenly Jerusalem had to be purified as well.

              The city, not people are decked with jewels.

              I will greatly rejoice in the
              Lord
              , my soul shall be joyful in my God; for he hath clothed me with the garments of salvation, he hath covered me with the robe of righteousness, as a
              bride
              groom decketh himself with ornaments, and as a
              bride
              adorneth herself with her jewels.

              The church are those "called" to the marriage.
              I agree that it was the holy city that John was shown descending from heaven.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Trivalee View Post

                Rev 21:
                9And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.
                Where in the following verses does he show him the bride?

                The bride looks like wonderful city, nourished by the waters and the fruit that Jesus gives us. He is the cornerstone of the foundation of our eternal dwelling place.

                And those castles made of sand....fall into the sea......eventually

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Trivalee View Post

                  The bride/church cannot be the city! People live in a city ergo, the city and the bride can't be synanymous. From Rev 21:12 -21 the city was described in detail. It's walls, gates, its foundation and the decorations with precious gems, gold, sapphire, jasper, etc. And in v15-17 the city was measured and we are given its specific size. How can one associate all these to the bride/church?

                  Throughout the NT, we read in different places that God has prepared us [saints/church] a city. See Heb 11:10 & 16. It is this heavenly city [NJ] that John was shown coming down from heaven.

                  In Rev 22:2 we are told that "in the middle of the street of it and on either side of the river, was the tree of life..." Is the water of life and tree of life in the bride/church?

                  Take your time and read Rev 21 and 22 again and see if you'll still hold the same view.
                  I've read it for many years, brother. Jerusalem is depicted as a "woman," and as such is used as a metaphor for the People of Israel in the OT. Nothing weird about this.

                  (Jerusalem as an Adulterous Wife)
                  Eze 16.16 The word of the Lord came to me: 2 “Son of man, confront Jerusalem with her detestable practices 3 and say, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says to Jerusalem

                  All of the city details, of the New Jerusalem in Rev 21-22, are purely symbolic of character traits that relate to God's People.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by jeffweeder View Post

                    Where in the following verses does he show him the bride? The bride looks like wonderful city, nourished by the waters and the fruit that Jesus gives us. He is the cornerstone of the foundation of our eternal dwelling place.
                    I have no clue what you're talking about. Read Revelation 21 from 9-27 and then come back.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by randyk View Post

                      I've read it for many years, brother. Jerusalem is depicted as a "woman," and as such is used as a metaphor for the People of Israel in the OT. Nothing weird about this.

                      (Jerusalem as an Adulterous Wife)
                      Eze 16.16 The word of the Lord came to me: 2 “Son of man, confront Jerusalem with her detestable practices 3 and say, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says to Jerusalem

                      All of the city details, of the New Jerusalem in Rev 21-22, are purely symbolic of character traits that relate to God's People.
                      If you say so. Thank you.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Trivalee View Post

                        I have no clue what you're talking about. Read Revelation 21 from 9-27 and then come back.
                        Where does the Angel show John the bride??


                        Rev 21:
                        9And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee
                        the bride, the Lamb's wife.
                        And those castles made of sand....fall into the sea......eventually

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by jeffweeder View Post

                          Where does the Angel show John the bride??
                          Rev 21:
                          9And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee
                          the bride, the Lamb's wife.
                          But the vision didn't end there, did it?

                          Rev 21:10 AND he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

                          Grammatically, "and" is used in conjunction with some else. It joins different events into one seamless narrative. In this instance, John was shown the bride - notice that the passage never said the bride was coming down to earth? So after John saw the bride, the angel then whisks him to a high mountain from where you saw the holy city/new Jerusalem descending to earth. From verses 11 to the end of the chapter, the holy city is described in detail and even measured.

                          How anyone can hand on heart claim that the bride mentioned in v-9 is the same city from v-10 and the rest of the chapter, baffles me.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Trivalee View Post

                            But the vision didn't end there, did it?

                            Rev 21:10 AND he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

                            Grammatically, "and" is used in conjunction with some else. It joins different events into one seamless narrative. In this instance, John was shown the bride - notice that the passage never said the bride was coming down to earth? So after John saw the bride, the angel then whisks him to a high mountain from where you saw the holy city/new Jerusalem descending to earth. From verses 11 to the end of the chapter, the holy city is described in detail and even measured.

                            How anyone can hand on heart claim that the bride mentioned in v-9 is the same city from v-10 and the rest of the chapter, baffles me.

                            The Angel said ' come with me ' and I will show you the bride. The Angel then whisks him away to a high mountain and showed him.
                            And those castles made of sand....fall into the sea......eventually

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by jeffweeder View Post


                              The Angel said ' come with me ' and I will show you the bride. The Angel then whisks him away to a high mountain and showed him.
                              John says it twice in revelation

                              REV 21:2

                              2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband.

                              Rev 21:9-10
                              9 One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and said to me, “Come, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb.”
                              10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and showed me the Holy City, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God.

                              Comment

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